New pavilion coming to Epcot and it's not a real country

[mcd2745]

All good points and I don't disagree. Just wondering what the alternative would be--- think of the crowds that would be in a pristine park situation with lower entry fees. If crowds were like christmas time all the time, I wouldn't go any more.

I agree with the idea that people need to put their proverbial foot down, but I hope it doesn't have to be me, ( yeah, I want everyone else to do it for me) and I think no matter what we say here, it isn't going to happen. The casual visitor doesn't catch the slipping conditions, and I believe they are the bulk of the tourists.

That sentence just reminded me of the old Yogi Berra line (when speaking about a particular restaurant) - "Nobody goes there anymore...it's too crowded".

 

[beer dave]

That sentence just reminded me of the old Yogi Berra line (when speaking about a particular restaurant) - "Nobody goes there anymore...it's too crowded".

Yeah that's funny.

 

[beer dave]

I agree with wall rock...

But the things that I use that really are alarming is the actual reduction of guest areas that had taken place in the last 15 years...

Discovery island, river country, and pleasure island were eliminated. I'm not saying they didnt need to go - but were not replaced.
You can say that they had a separate charge - and that is true - but the sales strategy since the 90's explosion was "all the choices"...and prices were raised across the board because of that.

Now it's "bigger magic kingdom and more princess in EPCOT - it's what you want anyway"
That's frightening...because the dollars on every ticket to pay for the "choices" of the past are still in there...you're still paying for it.
Disturbing.

And as wallrock pointed out... There have been some pretty significant "closures" or near closures in the parks that are being left to drag on.
Wonders of life is offensive to me... Even if it was a mechanical issue...how is health/ medicine/biology not relevant enough today to not have a pavilion?
Imagination is in decay...and that had gone on for over 10 years.
Not a penny of investment - if you want to be honest - beyond the rollercoaster in ak and toy story in MGM - for over a decade...
Even with the avatar development taken into account... Those parks have lost ground in the aggregate.
I'm not saying that every ride should be new... But those parks were NEVER FINISHED.

I guess I can give them a little credit
For finally taking down the skyway and building on the 20,000 leagues lagoon...
You know...12 years later.

It's a severe diminishing return...and only the consumers will be able to slow it or stick up for themselves.

Honestly... Id like to see an "annual pass" boycott for a year or something...not reject the product 100%...but a sign that we lemmings have a functioning ganglion. Burn, baby, burn

And no... Don't blame the tour groups...they'll be disappearing as well as soon as the dial turns south... As it will eventually.

Along the same topic-- think about this---

What about the HUGE number of people who already don't go to Disney because it is too expensive? They have been putting their foot down for YEARS. Maybe their entire lives..... I work in construction... I know the people who buy a pass for uni and go for the day several times a year... or maybe spend the night occasionally... or for Busch gardens because you go once and can go the rest of the year for free... and they don't go to Disney because their dollars go further at the other locations... There are thousands of them..... they are already doing what you are suggesting.... so if Disneys pricing comes in line, think of the changes it would bring......

 

[wallrock]

Along the same topic-- think about this---

What about the HUGE number of people who already don't go to Disney because it is too expensive? They have been putting their foot down for YEARS. Maybe their entire lives..... I work in construction... I know the people who buy a pass for uni and go for the day several times a year... or maybe spend the night occasionally... or for Busch gardens because you go once and can go the rest of the year for free... and they don't go to Disney because their dollars go further at the other locations... There are thousands of them..... they are already doing what you are suggesting.... so if Disneys pricing comes in line, think of the changes it would bring......

But are they putting their foot down or is it that they were never interested in Disney in the first place? Certainly there’s a demographic out there that pricing/value/whatever has reached a point where a trip is no longer justifiable, but I’m betting the majority that don’t go were never interested to begin with. I have a few friends that balk just at the mention of the company’s name. Not sure if there’s anything Disney can do to lure those folks in.

It seems to me that Disney has become an obligatory right of passage more than anything. The Disney label is popularized in film, TV and other media outlets to such a degree that when folks have children, and whether they are interested in Disney or not, they think ‘oh well, they’re old enough, it’s time to take the kids to Orlando’. My aunt and uncle were that way with their daughter. They went, she didn’t like it, and they’ve never been back since. I think Disney counts on them as much as the ‘regulars’ to feed the cash machines.

 

[beer dave]

But are they putting their foot down or is it that they were never interested in Disney in the first place? Certainly there’s a demographic out there that pricing/value/whatever has reached a point where a trip is no longer justifiable, but I’m betting the majority that don’t go were never interested to begin with. I have a few friends that balk just at the mention of the company’s name. Not sure if there’s anything Disney can do to lure those folks in.

It seems to me that Disney has become an obligatory right of passage more than anything. The Disney label is popularized in film, TV and other media outlets to such a degree that when folks have children, and whether they are interested in Disney or not, they think ‘oh well, they’re old enough, it’s time to take the kids to Orlando’. My aunt and uncle were that way with their daughter. They went, she didn’t like it, and they’ve never been back since. I think Disney counts on them as much as the ‘regulars’ to feed the cash machines.

Yeah it's hard to say-- a lot of people don't want to admit if they are actually priced out, using I don't want to go as a cover....could be either way. I guess there is a difference in being priced out and refusing to spend the money.... I just think about the crowd levels if it was much cheaper. Again, I am shielded from most of this due to FL resident and DVC.

After a little thought, in a different social group..( my wife and kids are heavily involved in theatre) I have a lot of friends who really want to join us on our trips but don't have the funds... again, though, priced out as opposed to choosing to not.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Along the same topic-- think about this---

What about the HUGE number of people who already don't go to Disney because it is too expensive? They have been putting their foot down for YEARS. Maybe their entire lives..... I work in construction... I know the people who buy a pass for uni and go for the day several times a year... or maybe spend the night occasionally... or for Busch gardens because you go once and can go the rest of the year for free... and they don't go to Disney because their dollars go further at the other locations... There are thousands of them..... they are already doing what you are suggesting.... so if Disneys pricing comes in line, think of the changes it would bring......

Fully agree

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Yeah it's hard to say-- a lot of people don't want to admit if they are actually priced out, using I don't want to go as a cover....could be either way. I guess there is a difference in being priced out and refusing to spend the money.... I just think about the crowd levels if it was much cheaper. Again, I am shielded from most of this due to FL resident and DVC.

After a little thought, in a different social group..( my wife and kids are heavily involved in theatre) I have a lot of friends who really want to join us on our trips but don't have the funds... again, though, priced out as opposed to choosing to not.

More good points...

Disney parks... The two we are most familiar with...we're built on the "middle class" customer who took the standard family vacation. It was long before vacation club, multiple trips, flex school calendars and scheduling, widespread air/international travel.

Well...like the weather...if you only believe what ALL the experts have indicated the the American "middle class" is basically gone... That "middle" economic disparity had ripped open like a trench in the ocean floor...
Then you have to accept that the Numbers of people "squeezed out" had been going up exponentially.

Indeed...I think the "luxury" strategy/pricing that they are pursuing now is a recognition of that from the research department.

"Dump the middle class"...it isn't coming back.

Steep discount at off times and "tour de la Brazilia" now represent the new "middle class" demographic

 

[Yellowstonetim]

I agree with wall rock...

But the things that I use that really are alarming is the actual reduction of guest areas that had taken place in the last 15 years...

Discovery island, river country, and pleasure island were eliminated. I'm not saying they didnt need to go - but were not replaced.

But wait a minute... Isn't Animal Kingdom essentially a replacement for Discovery Island and more? And aren't there now 2 waterparks instead of River Country? And won't Disney Springs encompass the old DTD & Pleasure Island and be twice as large? Maybe those things don't have everything you like, but looks like improvement to me. Not to mention that it was the government that caused the death of River Country, and, as you said, some needed to go. Sounds like progress!

 

[lockedoutlogic]

But wait a minute... Isn't Animal Kingdom essentially a replacement for Discovery Island and more? And aren't there now 2 waterparks instead of River Country? And won't Disney Springs encompass the old DTD & Pleasure Island and be twice as large? Maybe those things don't have everything you like, but looks like improvement to me. Not to mention that it was the government that caused the death of River Country, and, as you said, some needed to go. Sounds like progress!

Animal kingdom and discovery island both operated concurrently...though for a relatively short amount of time...

At one point there were 3 waterparks operating...I visited all 3 on one trip and would go to all occasionally as a resident.

And pleasure island was a nightlife/adult area distinctly for those over 21...as a young adult there...I can say I found it to be both "productive" and "beneficial"...

So they had 2 areas that served adults (the "west/south side" or boardwalk as well.

Now they have one.

And that "health department" story had not been substantiated.
If you want that one...I got some magic beans to sell you

Of course..."blame the government"...that's becoming a classic argument that's beneath you.

Disney IS the government... You think Orange County or Florida strongarms them? Do you know how much of each budget is made up by taxes from one "central Florida private entity"?

Thanks for playing on this one...I've got some lovely parting gifts.

 

[Andrew015]

As of today, the remains of both River Country and Discovery Island sit in decay and look like they could be used in the plot of some horror movie. Having these areas operational in some capacity would be progress. Having them sit idle in decay does nothing for anyone.

And while the Boardwalk area does offer a "taste" of the nightclub life for the 21+ crowd, it pales in comparison to what was once Pleasure Island. Again, not even close to being a "wash" in the nightlife department. The jury is still out on what Disney Springs will bring to the table, but from what I understand to be in the pipeline, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

As of today, the remains of both River Country and Discovery Island sit in decay and look like they could be used in the plot of some horror movie. Having these areas operational in some capacity would be progress. Having them sit idle in decay does nothing for anyone.

And while the Boardwalk area does offer a "taste" of the nightclub life for the 21+ crowd, it pales in comparison to what was once Pleasure Island. Again, not even close to being a "wash" in the nightlife department. The jury is still out on what Disney Springs will bring to the table, but from what I understand to be in the pipeline, I'm not holding my breath.

Hmmm...why you gotta be all "honest" and stuff?


Jelly rolls and atlantic dance do not make up for pleasure island...no question. But it's the closest comparison we have...at least until they close them.
The other problem on top of that is they have made a "uniform" bar menu at all the resorts (which sucks beyond measure) as well... And the hours kinda relegate them into "restaurant waiting room" type places. They can and do make a load of profit off drinks... But seem not to be "bothered" by putting in effort anymore as well. Alot of that is a labor situation...waiters and bartenders have typically made decent money...and that makes the hourlies and "managers" jealous. It's a quiet labor war that has gone on their for now decades...
We can't have that.

As far as springs...
I'm guessing a nicer version of bayside in Miami...

It will be an improvement - no doubt...but the place has sucked for going on 7 years...so not exactly the emperors triumph to put in outsourced retail and food is it?

My problem with the closure and non replacement of PI is this: they said it didnt
Work and had to close...
But it was there for 20 years just fine...I don't think it lost a cent.

The real decision was: "we don't feel like running it anymore"

Which translated to: "up yours, customers"

 

[Andrew015]

The other problem on top of that is they have made a "uniform" bar menu at all the resorts (which sucks beyond measure) as well...

No doubt, the "standardized" bar menu is a huge downer. A few places (Poly and Top of the World Lounge, for instance) have "secret" menus that you can still order from, but by and large, this has really put a damper on my "Andrew Does Binge Drinking in the WORLD part IV" trip reports.

My problem with the closure and non replacement of PI is this: they said it didnt
Work and had to close...
But it was there for 20 years just fine...I don't think it lost a cent.

The real decision was: "we don't feel like running it anymore"

Which translated to: "up yours, customers"

You would know far better than I, but I also heard that towards the end, PI attracted a "bad" local element of visitors, and that played a part in the decision to close it. Do you think this had any merit, or is this simply part of the cover up game that Disney PR plays oh-so-well?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

You would know far better than I, but I also heard that towards the end, PI attracted a "bad" local element of visitors, and that played a part in the decision to close it. Do you think this had any merit, or is this simply part of the cover up game that Disney PR plays oh-so-well?

Like "blame the government"..."blame the locals" is standard thinly veiled excuse.

Now...do I think that had some problems over the years?
Of course...it was - on a good day - a flesh market with liquid organic chain based compounds flowing freely

...
....
......

Sorry...I guess I started to daydream there...and I meant alcohol...by the way

Anyway - but it was canned and mothballed In 2009, correct?

What was going on on 2009...particularly in the sunbelt...particularly in a major us city/market where over 75% was tied to tourism...and who knows how much was Tied to construction and new development?

If they did have issues...I wouldn't condone individual acts of thuggery...

But in context...when everyone else economy gets a "cold"...the workers of Orlando get the flu. (Borrowed that from Europeans...but it works)

I think it was probably pure spin to take something Down...
And as I've stated before...the prices we pay were all inflated/adjusted over time to account for things like pleasure island...
It's not like you pay $102 (this week...anyway) to get into magic kingdom to cover just how many Cindy's they need to cover fairy tale hall for your DD...or the one cp girl in a bonnet who is shouting that they are "booked for lunch" at 11:15 outside liberty tree...with a half full restaurant...of course.

 

[OldsDr]

No doubt, the "standardized" bar menu is a huge downer. A few places (Poly and Top of the World Lounge, for instance) have "secret" menus that you can still order from, but by and large, this has really put a damper on my "Andrew Does Binge Drinking in the WORLD part IV" trip reports.



You would know far better than I, but I also heard that towards the end, PI attracted a "bad" local element of visitors, and that played a part in the decision to close it. Do you think this had any merit, or is this simply part of the cover up game that Disney PR plays oh-so-well?

To get a Walla walla wallbanger at Trout pass again.




If a Local bad element was a mojor reason for closing PI there was a much simpler solution than having buildings sit empty for 6 years. They could have simply put the gates back up at the entrances they it was andworked for years. Plus I believe locals helped support PI for the first half of its life (When they invested in it). I think a major downfall of PI was it did not work well with Magic Your way tickets. Especially becasue when they first came out you only got something like 5 WP&M options with 7 day ticket.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

To get a Walla walla wallbanger at Trout pass again.

If a Local bad element was a mojor reason for closing PI there was a much simpler solution than having buildings sit empty for 6 years. They could have simply put the gates back up at the entrances they it was andworked for years. Plus I believe locals helped support PI for the first half of its life (When they invested in it). I think a major downfall of PI was it did not work well with Magic Your way tickets. Especially becasue when they first came out you only got something like 5 WP&M options with 7 day ticket.

Agree...

They never could figure out the balance between flinging open the gates and charging way too much.

It should have been unlimited visits for resort multi day tickets or annual passes, a reasonable cover charge that wasnt dirt cheap to attract the right element form locals and off properties... And some reasonable drinks or incentive plans once inside.

And the occasional enhancement or redesign.

It was eisners baby... And bobby didnt like it...bottomline is leasing is easier.

 

[Andrew015]

Good feedback from both... thank you.

 

[Yellowstonetim]

Animal kingdom and discovery island both operated concurrently...though for a relatively short amount of time...

At one point there were 3 waterparks operating...I visited all 3 on one trip and would go to all occasionally as a resident.

And pleasure island was a nightlife/adult area distinctly for those over 21...as a young adult there...I can say I found it to be both "productive" and "beneficial"...

So they had 2 areas that served adults (the "west/south side" or boardwalk as well.

Now they have one.

And that "health department" story had not been substantiated.
If you want that one...I got some magic beans to sell you

Of course..."blame the government"...that's becoming a classic argument that's beneath you.

Disney IS the government... You think Orange County or Florida strongarms them? Do you know how much of each budget is made up by taxes from one "central Florida private entity"?

Thanks for playing on this one...I've got some lovely parting gifts.

See, that is the whole point. They didn't need Discovery Island anymore because AK is so much more. They didn't need 3 water parks either. And I was referring to any news horror story. What really closed River country was changes in state regulations governing pools/waterparks. And it was destined anyway. A Florida Freshwater waterpark was doomed from the start.

Now Pleasure Island is different. Maybe you have some good stories? Or does what happens in Pleasure Island stay in Pleasure Island? I think Disney realized it was not a good match for Disney. There are plenty of nightclubs and over 21 places. The area had issues.

So none of these things are negatives, they are all actually positives!

 

[rteetz]

See, that is the whole point. They didn't need Discovery Island anymore because AK is so much more. They didn't need 3 water parks either. And I was referring to any news horror story. What really closed River country was changes in state regulations governing pools/waterparks. And it was destined anyway. A Florida Freshwater waterpark was doomed from the start.

Now Pleasure Island is different. Maybe you have some good stories? Or does what happens in Pleasure Island stay in Pleasure Island? I think Disney realized it was not a good match for Disney. There are plenty of nightclubs and over 21 places. The area had issues.

So none of these things are negatives, they are all actually positives!

Positive? I'm pretty sure PI was a huge draw for locals. I of course don't know for sure as I am underage. But to me it seems that Disney didn't want the rap of having a night club area for drunk locals to go to. PI was in a section of DTD its not like the section was right in the open and these people were wandering around with the visiting families at least I don't think so. You also can't tell me it didn't make money, I of course don't have any numbers but just speculation.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

See, that is the whole point. They didn't need Discovery Island anymore because AK is so much more. They didn't need 3 water parks either. And I was referring to any news horror story. What really closed River country was changes in state regulations governing pools/waterparks. And it was destined anyway. A Florida Freshwater waterpark was doomed from the start.

Now Pleasure Island is different. Maybe you have some good stories? Or does what happens in Pleasure Island stay in Pleasure Island? I think Disney realized it was not a good match for Disney. There are plenty of nightclubs and over 21 places. The area had issues.

So none of these things are negatives, they are all actually positives!

That's all well and fine...

But you're still skipping the very important (but apparently not considered) point that your tickets... Certainly your Hotel rooms...even your airline tickets...have all been price adjusted upward over time to include things that are now closed and weren't replaced.

Even if redundant/out of date...subtraction is NEVER good for the customer on vacation. Not once.

 

[clsteve]

See, that is the whole point. They didn't need Discovery Island anymore because AK is so much more. They didn't need 3 water parks either. And I was referring to any news horror story. What really closed River country was changes in state regulations governing pools/waterparks. And it was destined anyway. A Florida Freshwater waterpark was doomed from the start.

Now Pleasure Island is different. Maybe you have some good stories? Or does what happens in Pleasure Island stay in Pleasure Island? I think Disney realized it was not a good match for Disney. There are plenty of nightclubs and over 21 places. The area had issues.

So none of these things are negatives, they are all actually positives!

ok.

I know it's never a good idea to reply to a post after starting your day at 3am in MCO for a 5:20am flight.

But...

I can't not chime in. Logic, Andrew, et al., just really nailed a sore spot with me (and rteetz it's a damn shame you're too young to have seen PI in it's hey day).

I was blown away the first time I experienced it in 1990. NYE every night, amazing venues - I mean, Disney themed, safe, adult entertainment!

In my late 20's, having just come back from a few years overseas, having grown up visiting WDW since the early 70's, I am not exaggerating one bit when I say that my first thought was - "I may never have to vacation anywhere else the rest of my life" -- I mean, EPCOT, TL, RC, PI, and then MK when I have kids...?

And I think I paid ten or twenty bucks in '89-90 dollars just to get on PI. Money very well spent.

Logic's right. They just got lazy with it. Because I've also seen what an amazing Convention/Corporate drawing diamond it was for major events. Several times.

It's a shame.

And speaking of lazy with a big dose of not caring one iota about how you're history will look or how you're viewed by a passionate but sadly dwindling from the '70s fan base:

Name another (arguably) top ten, amazingly profitable, corporate brand that lets properties like River Country just rot so close to their signature facilities that there are amateur "ghost hunter" videos made by 16 year-olds who just cut over a few yards from the resort path.

We're not talking about the old abandoned Corningware factory your great-great granddad worked in you drive by once in awhile. At least take the old signs down for crissakes....