New Parking Structure/Pedestrian Bridge Question

[gary1955]

I just wanted to float a couple of ideas and see what other people think.

1. instead of rerouting the monorail to the northwest or raising it over the new bridge what if it dropped down and went under the bridge. this would probably require either an extended closure until the bridge was completed and operational or extended single track back and forth operation like they did when the track through California Adventure was closed.

2. how about an additional pedestrian entrance to the security check area at the northern edge of the new transportation plaza to Manchester Avenue. this would be more convenient for Howard Johnson, Courtyard, Holiday Inn and Comfort.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Let me add a few more points about the city of Anaheim and Disney and how they deal with each other. Yes, it is a two-way street, but Disney does not get everything they want. Let's talk about traffic and things off of Disney property.

I just mentioned that Disney lost the rights to take trams (non-street legal) over Disneyland Drive (formerly West). They also lost in a battle on as to who can control traffic flow onto their property. They wanted to be able to use their own employees (CM's) to direct traffic off of city streets. The city, being influenced by the Police Union and others, nixed the idea, and why Disney has been forced to pay Millions to the city for the Police to do the work.

Also, it is the city that can close parking lots/structures entrances and exits when they want to, and not Disney. I mentioned the DCA access road that has been converted to getting cars off of Katella to be sent to Toy Story Lot, and that includes specific times when it should happen.

Since the city owns and operates the Anaheim Convention Center, there has been a lot of deals made in regards to parking lots, including the use to have cars park at Angel Stadium (usually Cast Members) that it also owned by the city. But you will see Disney allowing parking on the Toy Story and Simba Lots when the Convention Center is busy.

Disney also has made deals with the city and other governmental agencies in regards as to getting employees to use public transportation to get to/from work, including picking up some of the costs to the employees.

So what it comes to is the city has to take a much larger view of the area, and that includes Disney, non-Disney businesses, and city owned properties such as the Convention Center and Sports Venues, and everyone that works and uses them. Plus also the residents that live in the city. It is a balancing issue. As a city resident, I have good roads, lots of trees (the city will give you them for your property if meet some requirements), a city owned Utility that offers low rates on electric and water rates. good Police and Fire departments and more. A lot of that money comes from the taxes they collect from the Anaheim Resort District, including the Hotel Tax Visitors have to pay. Sales tax is low, as the city doesn't add a surcharge (over 2% less than some places in Los Angeles County). Of course, I pay property taxes that the city gets, but in general, the costs for overall taxes paid to the city is less than most places in California, and one of the reasons I finally bought a house here in Anaheim. (I have always lived in Southern California). So I comes down to what is best for the city, in the cities viewpoint, and not just Disney.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Gary, I doubt that the Monorail will be changed, and today's OC Register article does state that Disney has not committed to it. The much more likely option is that the bridge will be designed to work around the track instead. But yes, during the actual construction of the bridge, the Monoraill will have to close, or run back and forth instead, though that placed a lot of wear and tear on the old trains, and why new trains had to be bought after DCA opened. My guess, Disney will not run the Monorail during actual construction periods near the tracks, but try to limit the times it will be closed. But then again, looking at the current Disneyland Railroad closure, they just might opt to not run it at all during construction.

As for the new Pedestrian Entrance on the West side of Harbor, Disney has to look at the total picture, including a possible DCA expansion and keeping the Cast Member drop off area being not used by the public, and how to make the walkways on their property from the new Toy Story Shuttle Zone (current Taxi Stand) and the Southbound Harbor Crosswalk (Manchester) match up to access a new Security check. My guess, you will find the new security check near the western end of the new Bridge Ramp being built near the Costuming building. That will leave much of the current Transportation area/Toy Story drop off area open for expansion. But as I have said many times, this is still very much a work in progress with many changes being made before it is finished.

 

[Darkbeer1]

As for mikedoyle’s question regarding the Toy Story Lot and adjacent Katella Cast Member Lot, it is used a Lot currently, in fact, Cast Members have had to give up parts of their section to guests to handle demand on many days, and have been forced to park as far away as Angel Stadium and be bused into work. Also, the current lot is also used by the city for Convention Center parking. You also need to add the 4th Hotel that Disney is planning to build, taking spaces away from Downtown Disney, and then requiring parking for guests and CM’s for the Hotel, and the replacement of the DTD parking spaces.


If you look forward, the new Pummba Lot would add about 6,000 new parking spaces, and a second proposed CM parking structure at Harbor and Ball will add about the same amount of spaces.


But you have the expansions of Disneyland/DCA with Star Wars Land and Marvel land that will bring in more guests and of course, more CM’s will be needed. Plus, the Convention Center is building an expansion next to the Hilton, all these things will increase the need for parking spaces.


If something would replace the Toy Story Lot/Katella CM Parking, let alone do you have to address the loss of parking, you have to add the new need for much more parking if something like a Third Park would be added. Always a possibility in the next few decades, but both Disney and the city would have to buy more land for the increased parking demand and additional roads/lanes needed to handle those vehicles. Doubt I will see it in my lifetime….

 

[gary1955]

I could be wrong, but I don't think a 20 foot high pedestrian bridge could be built there without effecting the monorail beam. I'm estimating it would need to be closer to 30 feet to clear the existing monorail. my thought is that with a 20 foot high bridge there maybe just enough space for the monorail to run under the bridge and still allow pedestrians to cross under east to west.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Gary, the requirement of the bridge height will be set by the city and state vehicle codes, and that is about 16 feet from the roadway to the lower edge of bridge. Add to that the actual bridge and any type of fencing and landscaping added to get to 20 foot height. And that requirement is only over the actual street, so Disney could turn the western side of the ramp away from the Monorail track to start slopping down enough so when it does make the turn onto the property that it will clear under the track. Since the sidewalk and transportation areas are fair game in the area (and possible Bus Stop elimination) the city and Disney can agree to a plan where the slope just at the western edge of Harbor can start going down and not interfere with traffic, and as mentioned earlier, the Disney Cast Member Drop off area does not need the 16 foot clearance. The current shuttles can deal with a 12 foot or lower height. And then the pedestrian areas where Cast Members will walk can be as low as about 8 feet. One option that can happen on Disney property, do some grading and lower the CM shuttle lot level to a lower level than Harbor Blvd, which will allow even more room for the ramp. Disney has done some amazing things in regards to grading in the parks, such as Indiana Jones, Pirates of the Caribbean and the Haunted Mansion and the Railroad tracks, where you don't realize that when you enter, it seems like you are going underground, but that is only under the train tracks, and that most of the attraction is grade level on the outside of the berm. (aka the grade is higher inside the park in some areas). But the Disney number crunchers will look at all the options and make a final decision sometime in the near future, but based on past construction, the Monorail track won't get moved, IMHO.

 

[VandVsmama]

Did any of you guys see this in yesterday's Orange County Register? http://www.ocregister.com/articles/disney-725945-harbor-bridge.html

It says that for people who are staying at the hotels along Harbor Blvd that they will use a pedestrian pathway at Harbor Blvd & Disney Way in order to cross Harbor Blvd. If this is true, then staying at Tropicana, BWPPI, and anything from there to Hojo's is really going to STINK!

Also, from the new parking structure to the Esplanade will be a 1/2 mile walk.

 

[Indiana Scott]

Assuming the crosswalk would be at Harbor and Disneyway, it looks like it would about double (close enough) the walk from PVI and BWPPI. That would make it a 10 minute walk instead of 5 - still not bad IMO.
The walk from Grand Legacy, which is also a nice hotel, would end up being shorter - maybe 7~8 minutes. We've stayed there before and I would have no qualms against staying there in the future.

I hope they going to make improvements to the sidewalk on Harbor as well. There will be a lot more traffic on it since traffic is not longer converging at the existing crosswalk. Those hoards of people will all be going down toward the new crosswalk and if they don't improve it, they may spill into the street.

 

[Disney Dad ADL]

It would be quicker, though still a pain, to cross at HOJO or the potential crosswalk at Disney Way.

If what Darkbeer1 says is true, they are considering getting rid of that crosswalk on the north side of the Harbor/Disney Way intersection which crosses Harbor, so you would have to use the bridge if you're going south.

If the keep the crosswalk on Manchester, then you're correct it would be shorter, about 1941 feet from BWPPI to the other side of Harbor underneath the new walkway, compared to 3320 feet if you were to try to use the new pedestrian walkway.

 

[Darkbeer1]

OK, VandVsmama, you need to carefully read the Disney responses to the Orange County Register in regards to the new project.


First, as to crossing Harbor Boulevard, this is what they said.


>> Guests staying in the hotels or motels on Harbor will be able to access the resort without going through the Eastern Gateway. The plans are still being developed but there will be another entrance with a security point for those entering on Harbor.<<


So that is saying that somewhere on Harbor there will be a crossing, and not in a specific crossway, since this was told to the owners of HoJo’s/Courtyard Hotels earlier by Disney, and they are located at the Manchester/Harbor current crosswalk, it is the one that matches up with the proposed plans. More of a guarantee that Disney will have a security check gate on the West side of Harbor, nothing more.


Then you have the one that I think is confusing you, in response to this question. >> Will people walking on Harbor have access to the pedestrian bridge linking the new transportation hub with the theme parks, similar to the bridges that connect some hotels in Las Vegas? <<


So they are talking about the new bridge and not crossing Harbor, and Disney responded with. >> There will not be a direct access to the pedestrian connector or bridge from Harbor. However, visitors can use a pedestrian pathway at Harbor and Disney Way directly to the Eastern Gateway. <<


This is talking about the new Pedestrian Entrance as shown in the artwork submitted to the city by Disney on Disney Way behind the Grand Legacy, and is shown on the photo map that Disney Dad posted earlier (post #117 in this thread).


Now, we have many issues in response to the news of the documents were filed by Disney to the city, and the key one is that these are proposed plans, and some folks are trying to answer questions that have not be answered fully yet. And Disney is also very skilled at answering questions about future plans that are vague and in many times are not real answers to the question.


I know many people at the Orange County Register, including the folks who wrote and produced the video and recent articles on the story. (one is a former longtime WDI Imagineer ). They have a much different standard on reporting, where they try and avoid speculation, even if they have gotten “off the record” responses to their questions. They can only report on solid information.


I have posted many times in this thread, that pretty much everything is proposed, especially the “fine” details, and we need to take a wait and see attitude to the future plans, here is another answer Disney gave in the Q&A article. >> Disney says that the design for the main entryway, where the current transportation hub sits, is in progress. << So there you go, we have been given a general plan and a “peek” into the future, but the final decision have not been made yet.


So this “Discussion” thread is just that, folks that are interested in the news responding to the release of the basic info, and trying to figure out what it really means. And trust me, some of my city employee friends/contacts are frustrated as to some of the things that have been mentioned, as they have worked for years on the master traffic plan for the Anaheim Resort District, and has done overall a great job in getting things done, but also has had its share of being forced to make changes to it from “outside forces”. They much prefer the ability to remain out of the limelight and get things done in a more efficient fashion making deals to keep everyone happy.

 

[VandVsmama]

If what Darkbeer1 says is true, they are considering getting rid of that crosswalk on the north side of the Harbor/Disney Way intersection which crosses Harbor, so you would have to use the bridge if you're going south.

If the keep the crosswalk on Manchester, then you're correct it would be shorter, about 1941 feet from BWPPI to the other side of Harbor underneath the new walkway, compared to 3320 feet if you were to try to use the new pedestrian walkway.

Good point! This will make it more desirable to stay either at or next Hojo's or down at the Harbor-Disney Way intersection.

 

[LizzyS]

Ok, I'm getting a little confused reading multiple posts about this project. Our usual route is that we stay at the Red Lion and walk north up to the IHOP and cross over the resort at that crosswalk. This is the one they're talking about doing away with, yes?

 

[Disney Dad ADL]

Ok, I'm getting a little confused reading multiple posts about this project. Our usual route is that we stay at the Red Lion and walk north up to the IHOP and cross over the resort at that crosswalk. This is the one they're talking about doing away with, yes?

Yes, that crosswalk is almost certainly going away. There is another crosswalk that crosses Harbor at Disney Way, which may also be going away according to Darkbeer1's sources. If that turns out to be true, then from Red Lion, you would need to go north on Harbor until you get to Disney Way, then enter the new Eastern Gateway and cross the new pedestrian bridge.

 

[Darkbeer1]

As for the walking distance from the new Pummba Parking Structure to the Esplanade/park entrance area, let's look at some of the other options.

The Mickey and Friends parking structure (and also interesting to note, built by the city of Anaheim and leased/run by Disney in a break even type of deal as part of the initial park expansion agreement in the 1990's) walk from a space just to the tram loading area can be as long as a 1/3'rd of a mile (about 2,000 feet), but somewhat less for many spaces. Then add the time to load the tram, and for it to arrive at the unloading area, and then you have to add about another 1,000 feet from the tram to the center of the esplanade (of course, it depends on which area they unload you at (4 choices) and which tram car you are in. But for most, you are looking at over 2,000 feet of walking probably a bit more on average. And if you opt not to use the tram, you have a walk of about a mile, depending on which specific parking space you get.

The second main lot currently is the Toy Story Lot, this one is a bit harder to figure out, as they have on primary load area, and a second and if need be a third stop they can use if they need to use part of the Katella CM lot for guest parking.

This can be hit or miss, you can luck out and be assigned a parking space with very little walking to the bus stop, or you could get stuck with a decent walk. Worse case, about 1/5th of a mile (1,000 feet) walk from a parking space to the bus loading area. But more than likely less than 500 feet. But you still have to load the public bus (The Buses are not run by Disney, but operated under a contract with Disney that pays for the cost. It is actually the ART system (which was formed by the city of Anaheim) and called Route 20. ART then rents buses and drivers from the OCTA public bus system to do the actual driving and bus mainetence, so they are public buses). And then the bus can make other stops before dropping off at the current Transporation Hub,which is a walk of about 600 feet to the center of the Esplanade.

And then you do have the secondary lots, Pummba has pretty much be converted to current Cm parking, or just for a special event. You could get sent to Simba, which is behind the Paradise Pier Hotel, that is a walk without tram service. The main route is through Downtwon Disney, and about 4,000 feet of a walk (7/10th of a mile). Or sent to the Convention Center parking structure, the Anaheim GardenWalk structure and even on a rare location, Angel Stadium. Disney has made the decision to usually force the CM's to move and give up their spaces for Guests use if needed (but this has to be planned ahead and is based on expected attendance) Most times, guests will get to use parts of the Katella CM Lot next to Toy Story, the west end of Simba which is used by CM's, and the CM parking just north of Mickey and Friends Structure (where the Bakery building is located) and then make the CM's park farther away at places like Angel Stadium. But if the attendance goes above the expected amount is when the parking issue gets the worse. But Disney is fairly good at coming up with expected attendance numbers, though things like weather can change things they can't plan on.

Looking at the options as an AP holder and local, I tend to use the Toy Story Lot the most, but the main drawback is the lack of shade, and why some days I will opt for the Mickey and Friends lot. But with the new Pummba Lot, it will more than likely become my preferred lot for a few reasons. One is covered parking for the most part (except the roof), no need for tram service, a walk that is about the same as Mickey and Friends, and then options later, such as heading to the Anaheim GardenWalk for a meal after the park without needing to move my car.

I even sometimes opt to use public transit such as the OCTA routes, my favorite is Route 543 that drops off at Harbor near the current main Pedestrian entrance.

So as stated, when the project is all done, there will be winners and losers, and I am not sure where I personally fit into that formula, but more than likely a bit of a winner for multiple reasons.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Yes, LizzyS, your walk will be slightly longer, you will still use the east side of Harbor, head north from the Red Lion, use both the Katella Avenue and Disney Way crosswalks, but just after crossing Disney Way, you will walk East (make a right hand turn) behind the Grand Legacy to the new Pedestrian Entrance and new sidewalk behind the current Hotels on Harbor to the new bridge. So not a hugh change.

 

[LizzyS]

Yes, that crosswalk is almost certainly going away. There is another crosswalk that crosses Harbor at Disney Way, which may also be going away according to Darkbeer1's sources. If that turns out to be true, then from Red Lion, you would need to go north on Harbor until you get to Disney Way, then enter the new Eastern Gateway and cross the new pedestrian bridge.

So I would be able to use the ped bridge from Harbor from the street level? Or would I have to walk away from Harbor to get to it, maybe?

 

[LizzyS]

Yes, LizzyS, you walk will be slightly longer, you will still use the east side of Harbor, head north from the Red Lion, use both the Katella Avenue and Disney Way crosswalks, but just after crossing Disney Way, you will walk East (make a right hand turn) behind the Grand Legacy to the new Pedestrian Entrance and new sidewalk behind the current Hotels on Harobr to the new bridge. So not a hugh change.

Thank you! That's what I was wondering about.

 

[gary1955]

Darkbeer, the "outbound" track is only a few feet inside of the Disney fence line. the city wouldn't want to give up any space outside of the fence. that would mean losing public sidewalk and traffic lanes.

 

[VandVsmama]

It appears that I'm not the only OC Register reader to interpret yesterday's news article to mean that one would have to walk down to Harbor Blvd & Disney Way in order to cross Harbor Blvd and get to the Esplanade.

http://www.wdwinfo.com/news-stories...e-on-disneylands-parking-structure-expansion/

 

[Disneyland1084]

This whole project just might increase business at the resort hotels.