New pamphlet handed out yesterday...3/3/2012

[canopynut66]

You are first to report this and i would be outraged too.

My guess is that it is the result of complaints similar to ones that show up on the Theme Parks Board. People complain about those things from ECV users, without realizing that they (walkers) are cutting people in ECVs and wheelchairs off, going into the following distance that the ECV or wheelchair user has purposelessly left, etc, etc, etc.
When several thousand people view a thread like that, with people posting ' you should contact Disney, I have no doubt that many do complain, even if they have not ever had/seen the problem themselves. There is currently a lot of hostility against people with disabilities in general on the internet.

Handing out something like that ONLY to guests using mobility devices IS discriminatory - treating everyone one in a class as 'guilty' without any evidence that the person has done any of those things.

If they hand it out to people who have been seen doing something unsafe, that is one thing, but to hand it out 'just because' is not OK.

The only way it would be equal treatment under the ADA would be if they hand some 'courtesy' rules out to ALL guests, including the same information that seems to be in this pamphlet for people using stroller and information for walking guests about not getting too close to guests using mobility devices, not cutting them off, not getting into their safe following space, etc.

That said, I DO think they have a responsibility when someone rents an ECV at the park to make sure they have explained how it works and the person as no questions. I can't tell you how many times DH or I have hown someone where the speed control is. Most of them were driving along on Rabbit because they did not know there was a way to slow it down.
They also have a responsibility to stop people who are carrying kids on their laps or letting a child drive the rental ECV. I have seen children who appear to be no older than 3 sitting on someone's lap or standing between their legs and actually being the driver of the ECV.
ALMOST all of the accidents or near misses we have seen have been due to a child on the lap or driving or a walker cutting off the ECV/wheelchair user.

EVERYONE should get one I agree. People who are fortunate to be able to walk just do not even want to look at us. It is like what we have may be catching. My sister who is able to walk is always with me and if someone wants to ask -me--something they address it to her like I am not capable of understanding. and one thing people do ALL the time is if I get as close to say the clothes to look at them---someone will STILLstep between the clothes and my scooter. They could go around me or step to side of me but will say oh sorry (very few) and step over the front of the scooter. It just amazes me. No one likes to think they may be on one someday. neither did I until one day after several day's of walking around WDW the next morning got up and could not use legs long story short and many tests later found out have MS..there are some who rent them in the parks and do abuse them by taking turns riding them or have the kids on them as well. but I sure not on this thing because I want to be.. I miss a lot of things as cannot get up close to see. and you can walk a lot faster than any scooter will go--bar none

 

[llouda30]

Ok....I get what you're saying here, but if I would have actually TAKEN the advice on the pamphlet, I wouldn't have gotten too far in the park. It was totally rediculous to hand them out to people in chairs. The rental ones, yea I can understand, most of those people don't use their chair in every day living. you can usually tell which ones are rented, and which ones aren't. The rental ones usually have the name of the rental place on it somewhere. LOOK at the scooter or chair. Mine you can tell it's mine. It's painted.

scooters are not the only ones with the issues. My son has had his ankle sprained by a stroller. I've almost been knocked down by strollers when I was walking in the parks. Where is their pamphlet? That's my point. I did not like being singled out because I was in a chair. Disney is usually the best in the business in dealing with disabilities, but this one has big ol fat FAIL on it.



I wouldn't mind if they had these rules written on the rental scooters. That's fine. But to single me out just because I'm in a chair? Not fine.
My chair has a max speed of 4mph. I do not do that speed because my guys don't walk that fast. I keep up with them. Signs in public places are for EVERYONE.....not just one group of people. Everyone can see it, and it's not picking one group of people over another. That's where the issue is.



I really don't see where I'm selfish because I'm offended by a stupid pamphlet. everyone has a story about bad ECV drivers, shoot, we do ourselves. We have stories about strollers, and cheerleaders, and brazilian tour groups, where's their pamphlets?? Shoot when I was a walker, I was almost knocked to the ground by a guy who shoulder swiped me trying to get out of MK before everyone else. Where's HIS pamphlet? The lady that walked into my chair when I was not moving and the chair was off....where's her pamphlet? IF they do this for one group, then do it for everyone. EVERYONE needs reminders of how to act from time to time. It shouldn't just be the scooter group. Where are the people that say "excuse me" when they cut ME off in my chair? That's where I'm coming from. If you're gonna do reminders like that, remind EVERYONE!!!!

Really?? I think your missing the point, again a 300lb motorized vehicle is more dangerous at any time than an idiot walking into another person or someone pushing a stroller. Statistically, if you are going to get seriously injured it's not going to be from a walker, it'd going to be from something with a motor. That, is my guess, is why they are only giving the phamplets out to those in motorized scooters.

 

[Reddy]

wasn't there a post about an ECV going very fast in Dinoland play area that almost ran over a little girl??
I know that is going over facebook so it may be from that happening - that EVC woman didn't even slow down or seem to care - I'm wondering if a child did get hit

I know you want to enjoy your time too but how would you feel if you did hit a small child while at the park?? what is the worst case that could happen to that child??

 

[EugeneFitzherbert]

I know people who work down at WDW and spoke to someone about this on Friday. He wasn't aware of the pamphlets, but said that there are currently discussions of not allowing personal ECV's/chairs into the parks and requiring that the only ones used in the parks are those rented from WDW. Personal ones would still be allowed at resorts, DD, etc... The problem, as others have mentioned is that the WDW ones are limited to a safe reasonable speed, while personal ones (which Disney has no control over) can zip along at 5mph or even faster. Seems like a good idea...if WDW is going to potentially be liable for injuries caused by any type of motorized vehicle within the parks, then they should be given some control over them.

 

[book_junkie]

I know people who work down at WDW and spoke to someone about this on Friday. He wasn't aware of the pamphlets, but said that there are currently discussions of not allowing personal ECV's/chairs into the parks and requiring that the only ones used in the parks are those rented from WDW. Personal ones would still be allowed at resorts, DD, etc... The problem, as others have mentioned is that the WDW ones are limited to a safe reasonable speed, while personal ones (which Disney has no control over) can zip along at 5mph or even faster. Seems like a good idea...if WDW is going to potentially be liable for injuries caused by any type of motorized vehicle within the parks, then they should be given some control over them.

Won't happen. They could possibly block the outside rental companies, but someone's personal chair? Not in a million years.

 

[Reddy]

Won't happen. They could possibly block the outside rental companies, but someone's personal chair? Not in a million years.

why?? if they have one you can use, why can't they have you in their (maybe free of charge instead of force payment)

I really want to know why you believe they can't have you change into a different ECV?? I understand that you would follow the speed limit but how can you make sure everyone is (I"m actully thinking about the playboy guy, what is his name, how the girlfriend acted on one - how else can you be sure they wouldn't go over the limit??)

 

[Chickenlady]

Ok, minor rant from overtired ECV user.
First, rental scooters are at best 200lbs....prob. a lot less as DH and I can lift one into the back of a high SUV.
Second, getting hit by one can be worse than getting hit by a stroller or a person but for the most part it is not bad....I've been hit many times and my DS loves to stick his foot under my back wheel just to mess with me. It does not hurt much, if at all. Now, I've run over my own foot with a power chair, those are heavier, it hurt but I wasn't maimed, didn't even limp.
Third, most, if not all scooters, can only go 4-5 mph max! It's hard to get going that fast in WDW because of all the people. People can and do push strollers and walk faster.
Fourth, I've seen, in my group of friends and family, more blood drawn because of strollers or people pushing and shoving than I've ever seen due to ECVs and power chairs.
Fifth, I saw the video at Dinoland. Ok, the woman was crazy to drive with a kid on her lap. And she was crazy to go up the ramp without someone walking in front of her to keep people (kids) from swerving in front of her (ECVs really should have cow catchers on the front). BUT, I'm going crazy with all the people screaming aobut how fast she was going......do you realize it took her 2 passes of the ramp just to catch up with a toddler. How fast do kids walk, up hill? Speed is very hard to determine from a phone video. The people screaming about those things shouldn't even be allowed in Dinoland should be talking about unattended toddlers, not ECVs.
Sixth, the day WDW even thinks about restricting personal mobility devices and forcing people to rent theirs (which may or may not be available), is the day I sell my stock because management has totally lost it and I'm not hanging around for the lawsuit.
Forgot to add...I'd consider using a WDW rental ECV, if all strollers had to be WDW strollers and rented at the parks. That would go over really well.

 

[mickeymaker2003]

why?? if they have one you can use, why can't they have you in their (maybe free of charge instead of force payment)
QUOTE]

Personal mobility devices are customized to the user. Seat type, extra support blocks, seat belts, steering mechanism and sensitivity are all variables (along with a ton of other things). It is not possible for WDW to meet all of the unique needs of those who use their own mobility devices and offer a 'park provided' replacement.

The closest they MIGHT be able to come is to provide a speed display and set some type of "speed limit" that they don't want people to go over. Even that is shaky ground since there isn't a speed restriction on people on foot.

 

[deegack]

Ok, minor rant from overtired ECV user.
First, rental scooters are at best 200lbs....prob. a lot less as DH and I can lift one into the back of a high SUV.
Second, getting hit by one can be worse than getting hit by a stroller or a person but for the most part it is not bad....I've been hit many times and my DS loves to stick his foot under my back wheel just to mess with me. It does not hurt much, if at all. Now, I've run over my own foot with a power chair, those are heavier, it hurt but I wasn't maimed, didn't even limp.
.

Ok I was planning on staying out of this as it doesn't directly involve me, but my DH was standing still in line behind DD (then 16 months and me). Behind him was a man on an ecv. The man did something with his ecv and ran full speed into my DH knocking him to the ground and aggravating a back injury. DH is 6'7" 235ish pounds. Thank goodness it hit him and not DD who was a couple of feet away from him. As it was we lost a day because DH had to head back to the room. The man on the ecv admitted he had never driven one before and didn't know how to drive it or that it even had a speed control. Driving slowly over someones foot is not the same as someone getting rammed full speed. Those are the people that need instructions on how to drive a ecv. Unfortunately, it won't change until someone really gets hurt and there are law suits all around.

 

[EastYorkDisneyFan]

Also keep in mind not everyone is expecting an ECV to come up behind them. It's just like at home the one thing I can't stand is someone who honks a horn at you from an ECV or yells at you move out of the way as if they are more important then you. People in ECV's need to look out for pedestrians not the other way around.

 

[Talking Hands]

I know people who work down at WDW and spoke to someone about this on Friday. He wasn't aware of the pamphlets, but said that there are currently discussions of not allowing personal ECV's/chairs into the parks and requiring that the only ones used in the parks are those rented from WDW. Personal ones would still be allowed at resorts, DD, etc... The problem, as others have mentioned is that the WDW ones are limited to a safe reasonable speed, while personal ones (which Disney has no control over) can zip along at 5mph or even faster. Seems like a good idea...if WDW is going to potentially be liable for injuries caused by any type of motorized vehicle within the parks, then they should be given some control over them.

Why should I have to rent one of there ECVs in the parks when I own my own pwc. There are users that cannot transfer from theirs to a Disney rental. There are people like me who use a pwc fitted to our size and Disney does not have one that would fit me nor do they rent pwcs. Btw my chair only goes at 4.5 mph max. A disney ECV is not a safe option for me because of size and mode of operation. I use a stick control. Sorry but as much as they discuss this unless they can provide a pwc fitted to me personally it just will not work.

 

[Talking Hands]

Also keep in mind not everyone is expecting an ECV to come up behind them. It's just like at home the one thing I can't stand is someone who honks a horn at you from an ECV or yells at you move out of the way as if they are more important then you. People in ECV's need to look out for pedestrians not the other way around.

No, people in ecv/chairs and people walking are both responsible to be aware of their surroundings and act accordingly. My chair has no horn but I will say excuse me if someone is blocking my way or standing blocking the ramp I need to use. I do not expect to be climbed over by walkers, fallen on by them or have to put up with them using the back of my chair as a prop at parades. Stop trying to put the complete responsibility on the ecv/chair users. Be responsible for yourself and your actions and I will be for mine and the world will be a more livable place.

 

[ireland_nicole]

Also keep in mind not everyone is expecting an ECV to come up behind them. It's just like at home the one thing I can't stand is someone who honks a horn at you from an ECV or yells at you move out of the way as if they are more important then you. People in ECV's need to look out for pedestrians not the other way around.

Quite frankly you should expect people using mobility devices to be around you at Wdw- also people pushing strollers, walking at different rates of speed, stopping with no reason, etc. Everyone needs to look out for each other, and that's one of the main points of the thread

 

[kaytieeldr]

and that's exactly why there are handing them out to guest using ECV's to warn them that people walking may do something stupid.

Doesn't it make more sense to warn people walking, not to DO something stupid ?

 

[kaytieeldr]

I don't understand why so many are upset about the need for Disney to ask people on mobile devices to be very careful. You're only being "singled out" as some have put it, because you are using one, NOT because of WHY you are using it. I have tried to be diplomatic because some take things the wrong way when none is intended, but I have seen so many reckless ECV drivers (more likely those that may be using them only temporarily) but I also see many courteous, excellent drivers.

They're not asking people on foot to be very careful by handing them literature. Most mobility device users are already considerate. In addition to having to use something other than one's own legs/feet to propel oneself - so also involving hands/fingers/arms/lungs (thinking Christopher Reeve)/brain to a greater degree than persons on foot... People on wheels are also expected to predict what people on foot might do, which way they're going to turn, at exactly which split second they're going to step into the direct path of the wheels...

If you don't currently own a mobility device but have the time and wherewithal, consider renting one fo a full 24 hours next time you visit WDW. Try traveling The World from a butt's-eye view .

 

[BroganMc]

First off, I've been here since March 1 and never got a pamphlet. I feel neglected. I want to be chided for my cool ride too!

Second:

I know people who work down at WDW and spoke to someone about this on Friday. He wasn't aware of the pamphlets, but said that there are currently discussions of not allowing personal ECV's/chairs into the parks and requiring that the only ones used in the parks are those rented from WDW. Personal ones would still be allowed at resorts, DD, etc... The problem, as others have mentioned is that the WDW ones are limited to a safe reasonable speed, while personal ones (which Disney has no control over) can zip along at 5mph or even faster. Seems like a good idea...if WDW is going to potentially be liable for injuries caused by any type of motorized vehicle within the parks, then they should be given some control over them.

Oh cool. I can't wait for that to happen and the inevitable class action lawsuit which will pay for all my future power wheelchairs, lifts for my house, new specialized-controls van and all my trips to Disney World over the next 40 years!

If management is that stupid, then they deserve to be fired immediately before they bankrupt the company. There is a reason people spend thousands of dollars on power wheelchairs and spend weeks or months getting the proper device tailored to their needs and abilities (working with doctors and therapists all the while).

I can not drive an ECV for the same reason I have a $50,000 specialized steering system in my van and a $10,000 powerchair. I don't have the range of motion in my arms to grip the steering wheel. It is one-handed joystick driving for me. And if the back and seat rest aren't positioned just right along with left-handed joystick controls and proper alignment of footrests, I get pressure sores (at the least) or can not drive my vehicle at all (at the worst).

Disney telling me I cannot come into their parks with my chair is flat out discrimination. I'll get super rich winning my lawsuit against them.

Never going to happen.

Third, those Disney ECVs are a LOT more dangerous than the offsite/personal ones. They are huge, unpredictable to control and are not made for navigating inside buildings or around people. Most of the accidents I see are with one of those. As a power wheelchair user, I avoid them. It's like encountering a truck on the road.

Only rules Disney needs to enforce more frequently is the "no kids on scooters" one.

 

[Piper]

They're not asking people on foot to be very careful by handing them literature. Most mobility device users are already considerate. In addition to having to use something other than one's own legs/feet to propel oneself - so also involving hands/fingers/arms/lungs (thinking Christopher Reeve)/brain to a greater degree than persons on foot... People on wheels are also expected to predict what people on foot might do, which way they're going to turn, at exactly which split second they're going to step into the direct path of the wheels...

If you don't currently own a mobility device but have the time and wherewithal, consider renting one fo a full 24 hours next time you visit WDW. Try traveling The World from a butt's-eye view .

or just go to a very popular grocery store on Friday afternoon or on Saturday and use one of theirs. It takes me twice as long to grocery shop (to get less than half as much "stuff") as it does my sister who is walking. On foot, you just walk around someone who is stopped in the aisle, in an ecv you wait for them to move. It is the same at WDW. People block you, cut in front of you, stop suddenly, etc. If you aren't used to the ECV, it is twice as hard. That is why I only use my own as much as possible.

 

[SueM in MN]

Originally Posted by North of Mouse
I don't understand why so many are upset about the need for Disney to ask people on mobile devices to be very careful. You're only being "singled out" as some have put it, because you are using one, NOT because of WHY you are using it. I have tried to be diplomatic because some take things the wrong way when none is intended, but I have seen so many reckless ECV drivers (more likely those that may be using them only temporarily) but I also see many courteous, excellent drivers.

I want to point out something that has not been made clear yet,

People who are renting an ECV, whether in the park from Disney or from one of the off-site companies, they sign a rental agreement which states they agree to certain conditions. They may not use the same, exact language, but all are similar to the information in this rental agreement from Apple Scooters.

6. The following restrictions are cumulative and each shall apply to every use, operation or driving of the mobility equipment. Under no circumstances shall the mobility equipment be used, operated by any person: a) under the age of 18; or b) while under the influence of intoxicants or narcotics; or c) in an unsafe manner.

7. Renter shall defend, indemnify and hold harmless Apple Scooter Inc., all of their agents, officers, servants, and employees from and against any and all losses, liability claims, damages, injuries, demands, actions and causes of action whatsoever, arising out of or related to any loss, damage or injury claimed by persons that may arise from the use, operation or driving of the mobility equipment, provided that such loss or damage was not caused by the fault or gross negligence and willful misconduct of Apple Scooter Inc. or its employees.

8. Renter assumes all costs and expenses of every kind and nature, including legal fees and disbursements arising out of and in connection with the use, operation or driving of the mobility equipment.

9. Apple Scooter Inc. assumes no liability or responsibility for any acts or omissions of Renter or of Renters agents, servants, or employees.

10. Renter shall require drivers to operate the scooter with reasonable care and diligence and comply with the terms of this agreement. Renter shall notify Apple Scooter Inc. immediately of any and all accidents and damage resulting from the use, operation or driving of the mobility equipment.

One of the reasons many of us feel a pamphlet to all mobility device drivers won't work is that the person who rented the device already signed an agreement saying they agree to drive it in a responsible manner, not let anyone under 18 drive it and to be responsible for any damage or injury they cause while driving it.
The reponsible drivers will abide by that agreement.
The rude or irresponsible ones won't. If they didn't read or plan to follow the rental agreement contract that they signed, why would anyone think a little pamphlet handed out by Disney that tells them to be courteous would make any difference?

As I posted before, I do think the rental companies are being negligent ( at least IMHO) if they are not making sure that the ECV renters have at least basic operating instructions.
Some mobility device users are not experienced with using them. A pamphlet telling them to be courteous and stay away from others will not change that.

I also think some posted signs (or pamphlets handed out to everyone) would be more useful -and less discriminatory- than just handing them out to ECV users.
There are at least as many people who do not know how to behave safely around mobility equipment as there are people who are not experienced using it.

 

[Mama Who]

why?? if they have one you can use, why can't they have you in their (maybe free of charge instead of force payment)

I really want to know why you believe they can't have you change into a different ECV??

Because they'd get their butts handed to them in a lawsuit by anyone with a halfway compentent lawyer. Mobility devices for disabled people are protected. There are VERY few circumstances in which one can be required to get out of their own and use one they are not comfortable and familiar with.

Disney can no more make people use their provided scooters than they can make me wear their provided underwear. There are certain levels of personal autonomy that need to be respected. (And my underwear isn't even covered by the ADA.)

 

[bouncycat]

Wow!! Talk about can of worms opened!! On all levels. first off, they cannot tell us to use their chairs. People have mentioned that they've spent quite a bit of money on their chairs to be custom to them, WDW's ECV is not custom. I cannot use a WDW ECV because of my shoulders, it would cause WAY more pain than I already have from day to day having to drive and fight with the steering that way. If they tell me I cannot bring my own powerchair into the parks, lawsuit city baby!! BIG TIME!!! They cannot tell us to use a manual chair, cause I don't always have a family member with me to push me. I will NOT ask my friends to push me around all day. That's just wrong, and I cannot wheel myself in a manual chair. My disease is in my shoulders and hips, so manual chairs are OUT. ADA will not let them not allow personal chairs in the parks, and I agree with another pp, most of the accidents are with the rental chairs.

Secondly, everyone should be aware of their surroundings. Be it in a chair, pushing a stroller, walking etc. I'm only asking people to move if they're blocking a ramp. I think any everyday user would know that, and abide by that. My chair does have a horn, but I do not use it except to play around with my teenagers when they're in line and not moving WITH the line. That's it. I'm always aware of my surroundings, and have hit very few people. I can only think of ONE that was my fault, and that happened last night. I hit my DH's foot on accident. It was dark in the HM line, and was trying to keep my chair in gear, instead of it clicking in and out of gear, and was moving ever so slowly, and caught his foot. I felt SOOOOO bad for it, I apoligized for HOURS afterwards. Accidents do happen, but it's how the user deals with the accident that makes a difference to the people around them.