New from Sony

Supposedly, the auto-focus beats even top line dSLRs....

If I was starting from scratch, this would be a very attractive camera. The days of dSLRs may truly be numbered. Mostly what is keeping them alive is that people are already invested in their systems, and new users continue to *perceive* that they are better cameras, though that perception won't last forever.
 
The days of dSLRs may truly be numbered. Mostly what is keeping them alive is that people are already invested in their systems, and new users continue to *perceive* that they are better cameras, though that perception won't last forever.

This could be a spirited debate! In many cases, you are correct that many folks do not use their DSLR's to their full capabilities. With the current and future improvements in technology, the average person does not need a DSLR. The professional, on the other hand, still needs the flexibility and capabilities of the DSLR. Going forward for the professional, it will be the end user (magazine and newspaper editors, clients, etc.) who will determine the quality and what they will be satisfied with. An example is the Chicago Sun-Times newspaper who laid off their entire photography staff, which included several Pulitzer Prize award winners. For every day reporting they rely on their reporters with a cell phone! I would like to hear Danielle's (Photo Chick) take on this because I think she does studio work. What is the future of cameras in the Studio? In sports photography, the mirrorless options (for the majority of cases) haven't advanced far enough to be useful. That doesn't mean that in certain situations they couldn't be used, just that the extra expense of a $700 camera for that limited use, doesn't make economic sense for the pro. Interesting future to say the least.
 

This could be a spirited debate! In many cases, you are correct that many folks do not use their DSLR's to their full capabilities. With the current and future improvements in technology, the average person does not need a DSLR. The professional, on the other hand, still needs the flexibility and capabilities of the DSLR. Going forward for the professional, it will be the end user (magazine and newspaper editors, clients, etc.) who will determine the quality and what they will be satisfied with. An example is the Chicago Sun-Times newspaper who laid off their entire photography staff, which included several Pulitzer Prize award winners. For every day reporting they rely on their reporters with a cell phone! I would like to hear Danielle's (Photo Chick) take on this because I think she does studio work. What is the future of cameras in the Studio? In sports photography, the mirrorless options (for the majority of cases) haven't advanced far enough to be useful. That doesn't mean that in certain situations they couldn't be used, just that the extra expense of a $700 camera for that limited use, doesn't make economic sense for the pro. Interesting future to say the least.

Agreed that it's not there yet. But it is quickly moving in that direction.
For a sports shooting pro --- Let's remember, that this is a $650 camera, compared to the $5000+ cameras that pros often use. So can't expect it to match the $5000 pro camera in all regards. But the fact that we are even having this conversation, is pretty telling.
If Sony's claims are correct (a big if), it can focus as fast as those big expensive pro cameras, and it can shoot bursts as fast with full auto focus (11 fps). What is unclear, is whether you have full control over Aperture and shutter speed during those fast bursts. More likely, the aperture needs to be wide open in order to get continuous auto focus. Another issue, compared to the pro cameras, is that the EVF often lags the action when shooting fast bursts. So certainly, this $650 camera is not a total replacement for a $5,000 camera being used for a sports professional.
Additionally, in terms of native lenses, there is less lens availability for the system then for other systems. Though this is likely to change over time.

Still, aside from the professional sports photographers, this would seem to handle "action" as well as most other cameras on the market, if not better. (Another open question is the depth of the buffer, which has plagued some Sony cameras. 11fps sounds nice, but if the buffer is only deep enough for 1/2 second burst..)

From what I have seen, mirrorless cameras work very nicely in the studio environment, where focus peaking and similar features really allow locking down focus with perfection. As a brand, the downside of Sony in the studio, is that it's wireless flash system is not as good as Nikon and Canon. But that's not a dig against mirrorless, just against Sony.

Myself --- I'm rooting AGAINST this technology because I'm invested in Sony A-mount, which may become extinct, lol. But if I try to be objective, I personally prefer a dSLR-type body. I don't mind a little extra size to better balance the camera. I like in-body-image-stabilization as I have very shaky hands. I like having more direct access to controls with more buttons and control wheels. And I like that there tend to be better lenses, at better prices, available for traditional dSLR mounts.
But I fear that in the long term -- sleek and compact tends to win out over traditional and tactile.

There were many who doubted iPhone would ever become a major success because it was thought that large parts of the market would insist on physical keyboards. But over time, the people who did insist on physical keyboards saw their choices dwindle in the smart phone market.

I suspect, in the next couple of years, you will see Canon and Nikon introduce new lines of mirrorless cameras that retain their traditional lens mounts. They won't "start over" as Sony has.
 
I love the advertised advances of the A6000, and the early YouTube video samples of its focus tracking do appear to be accurate to the claim - certainly leagues better than any NEX body ever, and looking better than I've seen from any mirrorless so far.

As a NEX shooter AND a DSLR shooter, who uses both in a wide variety of shooting situations including action and tracking...I can say that this advance would definitely crush my current NEX, which can't really track at all, and would be a super advance...and looks to be competitive with my DSLR's speed at tracking. However, I still find plenty of reasons to prefer the DSLR body to the mirrorless...even leaving out the argument over optical-vs-electronic viewfinders. Even considering an EVF body only, I find when using large, long, and heavy lenses that the larger DSLR style bodies are much more balanced, more comfortable, and more controllable...I find that the DSLRs typically have significantly higher battery capacity - namely because the larger body can fit a much larger battery. The buffers are usually bigger on the DSLRs, and there is far more room on the body for various direct-access controls without menu diving. So while the new A6000 indeed looks fantastic and capable of true fast focus and tracking, and may indeed replace my NEX-5N, I can't foresee any time in the future where a compact mirrorless body will ever replace a large, full-sized DSLR/SLT style A-mount body.

What I can foresee is future A mount bodies using this PDAF-on-sensor system, which if it truly works as advertised looks capable of matching DSLR performance in some regards, maybe in combination with an SLT mirror, and/or dedicated PDAF sensors...maintaining a larger enthusiast/pro body, bigger batteries, more controls, and access to the larger and nicer A-mount lens collection.
 
Mostly what is keeping them alive is that people are already invested in their systems, and new users continue to *perceive* that they are better cameras, though that perception won't last forever.

I have "perceived" that my DSLR is a better camera than my mirrorless. It is better in every way imaginable except for compact size. In fact, I was already invested into a mirrorless system but chose to leave it for a DSLR. In my opinion, DSLR's are still much better cameras than compact mirroless. Aside from the NEX7 or the A7r I would never go back to a compact mirrorless system. Lens support alone is enough to put DSLR systems at a distinct advantage over mirroless. Plus the given cost of those lenses is roughly twice what a DSLR system would cost. I personally don't see how the limited benefits of compact mirroless could put them in a position as being perceived as better cameras than DLSRs.
 
I have "perceived" that my DSLR is a better camera than my mirrorless. It is better in every way imaginable except for compact size. In fact, I was already invested into a mirrorless system but chose to leave it for a DSLR. In my opinion, DSLR's are still much better cameras than compact mirroless. Aside from the NEX7 or the A7r I would never go back to a compact mirrorless system. Lens support alone is enough to put DSLR systems at a distinct advantage over mirroless. Plus the given cost of those lenses is roughly twice what a DSLR system would cost. I personally don't see how the limited benefits of compact mirroless could put them in a position as being perceived as better cameras than DLSRs.

The question is, in what ways is your dSLR better than mirrorless?

Yes, currently lens availability and pricing is an issue, but that's likely to change over time. (You can even use your dSLR lenses on mirrorless).

The advantages of dSLR over mirrorless are dwindling. Autofocus speed has been one of they key advantages of a dSLR over mirrorless. Sony -claims- their new mirrorless beats dslrs.

Image quality is certainly as good in a mirrorless.

What's really left? Just an appreciation for the ergonomic feel of a larger body.
 
I think that as far as the consumer market goes the time of DSLR's is coming to an end. I think a contributing factor to that is the pathetically small size of consumer DSLR view finders. It does no good to have a TTL view finder if the image in it is too small to really see. Also the lack of ability to change the focusing screen in most consumer DSLR's is a hinderance to making good use of a TTL viewfinder.

I also think that there are enough people out there who care about having a genuine TTL view finder that DSLR's will not go the way of the dinosaurs. They may go back to only "professional" level models available, but I really don't think they will die.

As far as in the studio... ultimately clean resolution trumps the viewfinder in my book. While I prefer a TTL view finder, if you gave me the resolution of a 4x5 view camera with less noise than my 6D in a mirrorless body that I could afford and I'd be all over that baby. Because in the studio you have time to slow down and can tether to a computer if you need to see the RAW file at 100% (which is not the same as the preview the camera generates). It's not like shooting on location where you have to rely on what you see through that viewfinder.
 
Great thread!

I have interest in this camera because shooting sports is a challenge with my NEX-7. I usually focus manually, use focus peaking - set to speed priority shooting (NEX-7 can do 10fps) and hope for the best. The video posted on SAR of the guy tracking the bird in autofocus got me pretty excited.

The big advantage to me of mirrorless is the ease that I can carry it around - on vacation, to kid's events, Holidays and get togethers and if I want to do landscaping or more serious photograhy the weight of the camera helps offset the weight of a tripod and a bag full of lenses. It's also easy to carry when traveling through airports.

I was willing to "give back" less autofocus ability and other features for the small size and weight - if Sony's AF claims are close to true ( I'll wait for more testing ) then this camera becomes a no brainer for me.
 
Great thread!

I have interest in this camera because shooting sports is a challenge with my NEX-7. I usually focus manually, use focus peaking - set to speed priority shooting (NEX-7 can do 10fps) and hope for the best. The video posted on SAR of the guy tracking the bird in autofocus got me pretty excited.

The big advantage to me of mirrorless is the ease that I can carry it around - on vacation, to kid's events, Holidays and get togethers and if I want to do landscaping or more serious photograhy the weight of the camera helps offset the weight of a tripod and a bag full of lenses. It's also easy to carry when traveling through airports.

I was willing to "give back" less autofocus ability and other features for the small size and weight - if Sony's AF claims are close to true ( I'll wait for more testing ) then this camera becomes a no brainer for me.

The bird was BARELY moving! lol.

Thing is..... for an amateur or for someone happy with some primes, the mirrorless is much more compact and lighter. But if you want to use more "serious" lenses, the weight savings of the camera body becomes more negligible. If you are attaching a massive 70-200 2.8, you probably won't notice that you saves a few ounces in the camera body.

But yeah... I personally prefer a bulkier more traditional camera body, but I think the market will generally prefer more compact. Right now, there is a perception that larger camera bodies are better. It sometimes takes a while for built in perceptions to change, but they do change over time. (Printed books are better than E-books! Records are better than CDs! Landlines are better than cell phones! Typewriters are better than computers! (Ugly dot matrix printing as opposed to the cleaner type of a typewriter)
 
The bird was BARELY moving! lol.

Thing is..... for an amateur or for someone happy with some primes, the mirrorless is much more compact and lighter. But if you want to use more "serious" lenses, the weight savings of the camera body becomes more negligible. If you are attaching a massive 70-200 2.8, you probably won't notice that you saves a few ounces in the camera body.

But yeah... I personally prefer a bulkier more traditional camera body, but I think the market will generally prefer more compact. Right now, there is a perception that larger camera bodies are better. It sometimes takes a while for built in perceptions to change, but they do change over time. (Printed books are better than E-books! Records are better than CDs! Landlines are better than cell phones! Typewriters are better than computers! (Ugly dot matrix printing as opposed to the cleaner type of a typewriter)

Yes, but with the NEX you can do both - travel light or travel big.

If this AF claim is close to being true - I think the next move in the Amount may be mirrorless. Imagine a Full frame mirrorless Amount with IBIS, all the bells and whistles and more controls than you could possibly need. I know you think the A mount is heading the way of the Dodo bird but I'm hopeful it will continue on.
 
The question is, in what ways is your dSLR better than mirrorless?

Yes, currently lens availability and pricing is an issue, but that's likely to change over time. (You can even use your dSLR lenses on mirrorless).

The advantages of dSLR over mirrorless are dwindling. Autofocus speed has been one of they key advantages of a dSLR over mirrorless. Sony -claims- their new mirrorless beats dslrs.

Image quality is certainly as good in a mirrorless.

What's really left? Just an appreciation for the ergonomic feel of a larger body.

Ergonomically superior. Significantly better controls. Lens support. Yes, I again bring up the lenses. Compact mirroless lenses are the prime reason I switched to A Mount. Much fewer lenses, much higher prices. No thank you. A theoretical, "maybe someday" approach to better lens support just doesn't do it for me. I know a lot of people have faith that one day the E Mount will be almost as versatile as the A Mount. I do not share that faith. At least not that it'll happen anytime soon.

I am fully aware that image quality is a mute point. They both use APS-C so that's that.

However, my DLSR is a superior camera to me in ways that are important to me. First and foremost...

Size is not important to me. I am not swayed by the size difference between a compact mirrorless and a DSLR. Using a smaller camera holds little to no advantage to me. In fact, I consider it to be more of a con than a pro. I like the feel of a DSLR. Larger and heavier feels better to me. Frankly I don't consider the weight difference to be enough to even merit consideration. In my brain they are the same weight. And the larger body is easier to hold steady. More importantly, I have never once missed out on a photo opportunity because the DSLR was simply too big to bring. Never once have I thought "Oh, if only I had a smaller camera that would have been sufficiently small enough to merit this photo opportunity but alas! my much too large DSLR was indeed too large to bring with me and so I have missed a photo opportunity!" I know, a bit dramatic but that's how I feel about that.

Take the size difference advantage out of the picture and really what's left?
 
Size is not important to me. I am not swayed by the size difference between a compact mirrorless and a DSLR. Using a smaller camera holds little to no advantage to me. In fact, I consider it to be more of a con than a pro. I like the feel of a DSLR. Larger and heavier feels better to me. Frankly I don't consider the weight difference to be enough to even merit consideration. In my brain they are the same weight. And the larger body is easier to hold steady. More importantly, I have never once missed out on a photo opportunity because the DSLR was simply too big to bring. Never once have I thought "Oh, if only I had a smaller camera that would have been sufficiently small enough to merit this photo opportunity but alas! my much too large DSLR was indeed too large to bring with me and so I have missed a photo opportunity!" I know, a bit dramatic but that's how I feel about that.

Take the size difference advantage out of the picture and really what's left?

I would concur with this comment. As someone who is fortunate to shoot with a couple of pieces of Nikon's big glass (in many instances shooting handheld) the idea of the smaller body of a mirrorless would concern me. As Animagic states, the larger body of a DSLR is easier to hold, and the larger size of a DSLR lends to a more balanced feel with larger pieces of glass. Now if I were primarily a landscape photographer who shoots off a tripod 24/7, the idea of shooting small mirrorless body, with an adapter, and large piece of Canon or Nikon glass attached would not bother me as much.
 
I think in terms of body size vs. lens size you have to consider the size of lenses for mirrorless cameras. The shorter distance from the back element to the lens changes the design of the optics. Smaller sensors also mean smaller lenses. The question is can they get to the point where they can pack a 70-200 f/2.8 in a package small enough to make a difference to use on a body with a sensor that can hang with the big boys. We're certainly not there yet but I could see it in another decade.
 
Remember... You can make a mirrorless camera with a large body. So larger body is not an inherent advantage of a mirrored camera. If Oly thought there was strong enough market demand, they could stick their mirrorless camera into a huge body. Sony has experimented with putting their e-mount on a larger body -- the a3000.

So ergonomics is not an inherent dSLR advantage.
 
True havoc, but one of the reasons many go with a mirrorless body over a DSLR is for the smaller size of the mirrorless. So while they can be made larger I don't see them going that way because their compact size is a selling point.
 
Remember... You can make a mirrorless camera with a large body. So larger body is not an inherent advantage of a mirrored camera. If Oly thought there was strong enough market demand, they could stick their mirrorless camera into a huge body. Sony has experimented with putting their e-mount on a larger body -- the a3000.

So ergonomics is not an inherent dSLR advantage.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 2 major advantages of having a mirror is better autofocus and an optical view finder.

Mirrorless cameras seem to be closing that gap - that's why I could see Sony developing a mirrorless A-mount with IBIS and maybe the same "style" of a DSLR but slightly smaller/sleeker. High ISO performance should improve without the translucent mirror.
 
True havoc, but one of the reasons many go with a mirrorless body over a DSLR is for the smaller size of the mirrorless. So while they can be made larger I don't see them going that way because their compact size is a selling point.

Just pointing it, as a few people in this thread indicated they prefer a dSLR because they *want* a larger body. And I personally agree with that sentiment.
But if there are enough of us who prefer a larger body, the camera makers can make larger mirrorless cameras.

That still holds an advantage, particularly for a maker like Sony -- They can take their "E-mount" -- and use the same mount for small mirrorless cameras, and for large dSLR type bodies, keep interchangeability of lenses, etc. Sony already abandoned the optical viewfinder anyway. And if mirrorless can truly focus *faster* than a traditional dSLR (a big IF), then it's hard to see a reason to continue traditional dSLRs (or in Sony's case, dSLTS).
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 2 major advantages of having a mirror is better autofocus and an optical view finder.

Mirrorless cameras seem to be closing that gap - that's why I could see Sony developing a mirrorless A-mount with IBIS and maybe the same "style" of a DSLR but slightly smaller/sleeker. High ISO performance should improve without the translucent mirror.

Sony *claims* that the new A6000 autofocus is superior to dSLRs. So if this claim is true, then that advantage is gone.

Sony already abandoned the optical viewfinder...

As to other camera makers -- There certainly is a market for optical viewfinders. The question is, the size of the market, and what the market is willing to pay. It reminds me of physical keyboards on smart phones. There is absolutely a market for physical keyboards. I know people who hate the touch screen keyboards. Yet, there are now very very few smart phones still made with physical keyboards.
Just as there are consumers who honestly claim they prefer records of CDs and digital music, albums are generally no longer released as records.

So the question becomes the size and commitment of the optical viewfinder market. Will they totally shun EVFs or grudgingly accept them... are they willing to pay more for OVFs.. how much more.

With younger people accustomed to "TTL" views on their smart phone screens and point & shoot LCDs... how many will prefer an optical TTL view as opposed to a digital TTL view.
 












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