New Disney Resort Project?

[yitbos96bb]

They may be the last to book fully, but 1) they do book fully and 2) the number of rooms is a good reason WHY it's the last to book.

The Saratoga Effect

once upon a time, there was a very effective timeshare enterprise allowing for the owners to move freely amongst several themed units and locations. This was known as "DVC"
In 2003, awash in the flow of imaginary money of fake real estate values and stock prices that nearly crashed the world economy in 2008, Disney quickly threw up this "thing" on the site of the abandoned and embarassing Eisnerian pet project, the Disney Institute. And Saratoga was born and expanded to the now ridiculous number of 1260 units by 2009.

The problem - as is seems - is that when they opened Saratoga, it comprised close to 40% of the total of DVC units (including Vero Beach and Hilton Head). And due to it's sprawling layout, lackluster facilities, and lack of attachment to a WDW gated park...it quickly became the least in demand of the DVC locations. Perhaps the point chart that placed it just shy of the more desirable Boardwalk, VWL, and Beach Club locations (and well above Old Key West...which is in almost the same location and provides similar experiences) also helped to get the snowball rolling.

So they had the largest property lacking widerange appeal...and they had somewhere in the area of 40,000 new members sold into it (guess who's one of them ) who did want to use the other, older, smaller, better located DVC units.

What does that create? logjam...as in reservation logjam. The real result is that it all but eliminated the flexibility for DVC members to choose where they can stay at many times...which is a fundamental benefit and still a hard stressed DVC selling point.

You can't add that many rooms at the "bottom" of the food chain without consequences. they effectively killed the waitlist and alot of the freedom of choice.

So that is the saratoga nightmare. Though the recent additions to DVC have probably dulled it...a little.

But i hope they learned their lesson. which is don't try to sell snakeoil to WDW's most consistent clientele. Because you end up with no demand for your pre-fab pastel painted horse buildings.




My thought was part of the area around river country could house an expansion to the wilderness lodge villas...which would make sense in alot of ways due to the prime location and the wilderness lodge villas being the smallest number of units ever constructed.

 

[yitbos96bb]

Yeah I'm going to call bull on the African theme excuse. No evidence exists to support that notion. Akl suffers due to Location. It's way to far from everything but DAK. So are the value resorts but those are cheap so people deal. But most people will choose another deluxe resort because of this. I'd stay at Okw or Ssr over AKL because they are closer to things than Akl.

Now a more involved DAK could help, but since both DHS and DAK are half dayers I won't hold my breath.

I agree with alot of your points...and completely agree that somebody is always going to be the scapegoat...

I do differ in that i believe that saratoga has earned it more than others. The point chart is the big one...they got greedy by trying to "slide in" a point value on saratoga that is just off what the other frontline DVCs charge...but clearly they offer less for the points. the lack of a walkable/ short trip gate is a huge discrepancy...and has been so for OKW, and the Port/ Dixie since their construction as well. OKW...while frequently a whipping boy...allows a better value for your points...you can get much more vacation out of it - so that is a redeemer in my book.
Animal Kingdom is a classic WDW "fix" scenario. I worked in resorts at the time of its' construction/ opening (the original lodge) and Disney's and particularly Michael Eisner's expectations of its appeal were way off. The room rates were decreased significantly in 2002 - 8 months after the doors opened.
DVC is a quiet way to "reclaim" what they perceive as lost revenue at AKL. Build 'em...and people will use em, right?
some say its location...some say its proximity to animals...some say transportation...they may all be right.
But the straight forward, non-BS reason for the struggles of AKL and what will be the struggles of AKV is that the Disney clientele by and large doesn't like the African Theme.
I said it...let's not ignore it.
I have no doubts...and AKV was bound to become a "lower" end DVC location and have lots of headaches/ complaints from owners because of what it is.
A good, full day ANIMAL KINGDOM PARK would help this problem...but we know that's not anywhere near a priority.

so yes, i see what you mean...there's always going to be a whipping boy. But that doesn't mean saratoga isn't what it is. A reclamation project that was built too large, hurried into construction, built with few new facilities...overpriced in points...and let's face it: built to funnel you into Days of Christmas and World of Disney.

But my hope is that new DVCs (anyone doubt they're coming soon?) will be of the BLT variety - prime locations. That will mitigate the damage of the two "repair" spots (SSR and AKV) when it comes to choice, appeal, distribution of demand.
I bet if i went to the parking lot outside of Grand Floridain right now with a shovel and started digging the heavy equipment would be along sooner than later to take over

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Yeah I'm going to call bull on the African theme excuse. No evidence exists to support that notion. Akl suffers due to Location. It's way to far from everything but DAK. So are the value resorts but those are cheap so people deal. But most people will choose another deluxe resort because of this. I'd stay at Okw or Ssr over AKL because they are closer to things than Akl.

Now a more involved DAK could help, but since both DHS and DAK are half dayers I won't hold my breath.

It's your opinion...

So have it as you wish. I've explained where i'm getting mine from...so its up to you to decide.

The "way out there" excuse for animal kingdom lodge is an excuse...in my opinion. It's no "farther" out there than any of the magic kingdom resorts, it has a gate next door (though that is problematic due to fencelines and makes it more difficult for access), it's not far at all from EPCOT and Studios, it has the benfit of having Blizzard Beach in very close proximity.

The only thing that it is "distant" from is Downtown - which is really also perception because its about a big fat 5 miles away.
All guest areas at WDW are in a roughly "T" shape...and none are more than a few miles away from each other.
So really...it comes just as much down to animal kingdom as it does where it's located. Animal Kingdom is not attractive enough to generate huge demand for the hotel next to it. That much seems clear. I, as others have stated, doubt that Disney has any idea to make it otherwise.
But there were indications - both in the past and still to this day - that there is more of an acceptance issue with the animal kingdom area than the other gates at WDW. My belief is that theme or simply the animal element doesn't have as much appeal as the other resort areas at WDW (which are of course beach, beach, beach, beach, more beach and...in the case ft wilderness/lodge and dixie landings...woods)

but go ahead...call bull...i'm just not sure you have either the perspective or the right to do so.

 

[anthony2k7]

according to google maps, its actually further from MK than it is from downtown

but who am i to question stuff like that, i probably dont even have the "right to do so" anyway.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

according to google maps, its actually further from MK than it is from downtown

but who am i to question stuff like that, i probably dont even have the "right to do so" anyway.

what's the difference? quarter mile? a half?

you are making my point...the "it's way out there" idea is a farce. It's not. It's not really a SIGNIFICANT distance from the other areas more than the farthest points in the other directions.

But hey...i'm sure that the fact i've driven that entire property hundreds is not thousands of times as an employee has no bearing on my sense of direction and distance either, right?

Seriously...when is amateur hour going to end on this subject.

If you don't agree with my opinions or experiences i have NO problem with that. But they have a basis...you're not gonna win that point.

now let's be friends

by the way...what happened to my old little sarcastic buddy who thought the numbers said something different than what they say? gone fishing i guess

 

[nuts]

what's the difference? quarter mile? a half?

you are making my point...the "it's way out there" idea is a farce. It's not. It's not really a SIGNIFICANT distance from the other areas more than the farthest points in the other directions.

But hey...i'm sure that the fact i've driven that entire property hundreds is not thousands of times as an employee has no bearing on my sense of direction and distance either, right?

Seriously...when is amateur hour going to end on this subject.

If you don't agree with my opinions or experiences i have NO problem with that. But they have a basis...you're not gonna win that point.

now let's be friends

by the way...what happened to my old little sarcastic buddy who thought the numbers said something different than what they say? gone fishing i guess

Perception is reality

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Perception is reality

true...and sometimes the tail wags the dog.


And isn't the truth but a lie that everyone believes?


And why do they call them "stereotypes"?...because they're usually true


And Don't stand between a resident of Toms River, NJ and getting what they want in Walt Disney World.


(ok...the last one i made up...but it's 99.997% accurate )

 

[Disco]

I stayed at the AKL and transportation was my only gripe. While close to the AK it was a trek to all the other attractions.
The physical distance probably only added maybe 5 minutes to most trips but that was just one of the factors.
I'll try to explain. Let’s say most people spend 6 days at WDW. Most people spend only one day at the AK. THat means people staying at the AKL spend every day but one (5 to 1) bussing a long distance to the parks.
People at other deluxe resorts are the opposite. Some can walk right onto property or spend 5 minutes getting there and they usually visit these other parks twice during their WDW stay. So their short to long bus ratio is more like 1 to 5 or 2 to 3 if you have a medium distance park twice. An extra 5-10 minutes on a bus almost every day can be annoying especially if it's standing room only or because of all the a’ holes that bring the big strollers aboard (tip: if you have to take a stroller on a bus get the collapsible umbrella types so you’re not an taking up all the room!).
Also, most deluxe resorts offer other forms of transportation other than bus which are sometimes slower but can break up the monotony or just offer more room.
After saying all that, AKL is my favorite resort. The animals were cool but it is the only resort where I feel completely immersed in the themeing. The details are incredible. The look, feel and smells of the place... and I'm really in Africa.

 

[JasonDVC]

...I bet if i went to the parking lot outside of Grand Floridain right now with a shovel and started digging the heavy equipment would be along sooner than later to take over

And there would be a number of us right behind them with our check books

 

[troynkasey]

you are making my point...the "it's way out there" idea is a farce. It's not. It's not really a SIGNIFICANT distance from the other areas more than the farthest points in the other directions.

This is the problem with quite a few of your posts. You think your beliefs/standards are the norm or the same for others. A significant distance for one person is far different from others. I don't think the distance is bad at all. Some folks do. It is a significant distance from MK compared to BLT. You have your opinion and I respect that, but you can't standardize your opinion for everyone else too.

You think the low attendance for AKL is due to the "African decor". I for one love the African decor and met many people at the lodge who said the same. Just because you think it, doesn't mean it's the standard. Give your opinion and respect others who disagree or believe in the contrary...

 

[troynkasey]

but go ahead...call bull...i'm just not sure you have either the perspective or the right to do so.

O.k. so now we're supposed to take your word and opinion over others because you've traveled through property thousands of times and you're the know all of Disney and what Disney Corporate is thinking?

I'm pretty sure I've been on boats and buses where captains of the boats and drivers of the buses have told passengers they're "in the know" on some Disney developments that never came true or were so far off base. You living near Disney World or working there gives you no more or no less validity unless you're in the decision making process...and I hardly believe that because if you were in the decision making process, you'd be far too busy to be on DisBoards sharing your opinion.

 

[doconeill]

This is the problem with quite a few of your posts. You think your beliefs/standards are the norm or the same for others. A significant distance for one person is far different from others. I don't think the distance is bad at all. Some folks do. It is a significant distance from MK compared to BLT. You have your opinion and I respect that, but you can't standardize your opinion for everyone else too.

You think the low attendance for AKL is due to the "African decor". I for one love the African decor and met many people at the lodge who said the same. Just because you think it, doesn't mean it's the standard. Give your opinion and respect others who disagree or believe in the contrary...

I just had an online conversation with an old friend who said that AKL was a "pretty resort...but more remote than I like to be." And that was out of the blue from her, we were discussing the value resorts and getting better rooms at some others - she mentioned AKL, I didn't.

So there is definitely the public perception that it is "way out there".

 

[pilferk]

I just had an online conversation with an old friend who said that AKL was a "pretty resort...but more remote than I like to be." And that was out of the blue from her, we were discussing the value resorts and getting better rooms at some others - she mentioned AKL, I didn't.

So there is definitely the public perception that it is "way out there".

I also suspect there is some "relativity" to the "way out there" perception.

For example, I live in Northwestern CT. For us, a 15 to 20 minute ride to Walmart isn't all that bad....that's "pretty close".

For people used to living in a more urban or densely populated area, a 15 to 20 minute ride to ANYTHING is "pretty far".

From AKL, the bus ride usually last about 20-ish minutes to MK (longer from Kidani, only because you have to stop at Jambo to pick up). It's about 10-15 min to Epcot. It's about 5 minutes to DAK.

NONE of that do I consider "far away". But that's my perception. AKL is not like the Boardwalk or Beach Club Villas, which basically have a walkway to Epcot. AKL is not like VWL which has it's own waterlaunch to MK. AKL is not like BLT, which has the monorail right across the walkway.

Relative to other DVC or deluxe hotel offerings, it's further away from an "anchor" park. From there, it's up to everyone to personally decide what "too far" is.

For me, AKL/AKV is just right. It's not on top of a park. But it's close enough so I can get back to the room in the afternoon, with the kids, get them in the pool, get some rest time back in the room, and still be back to MK for the parade and fireworks, or to Epcot for Illumination, etc.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

This is the problem with quite a few of your posts. You think your beliefs/standards are the norm or the same for others. A significant distance for one person is far different from others. I don't think the distance is bad at all. Some folks do. It is a significant distance from MK compared to BLT. You have your opinion and I respect that, but you can't standardize your opinion for everyone else too.

You think the low attendance for AKL is due to the "African decor". I for one love the African decor and met many people at the lodge who said the same. Just because you think it, doesn't mean it's the standard. Give your opinion and respect others who disagree or believe in the contrary...

everyone here has an opinion...and almost everyone standardizes it.

My thoughts about AKL and the theming not being a big hit are based on some reasonable analysis of the trends and facts dealing with its history and the difficulties filling the rooms.

I never said you had to agree with them. but where you are mistaken is that you somehow blanket dismissals (which you basically do) are the same as making a theory....one is what this board is for...the other is bad etiquette.

Am i the president of WDW? of course not
Do i have experience at WDW? yes
Does that make me the biggest expert when it comes to operations? No
Does that give me a perspective that most (especially on this board) do not have? absolutely
Am i qualified to make judgement decisions and propose not so mainstream ideas about how things are run? yes...because its a theory...and a theory is taking facts, events, or observations and developing them into a reasonable assessment.

That's what i did.

so let's here it...figure out how to prove me wrong (you can't) or figure out how what i said is not possible (you won't)

but these things i know:
"it's too far out" is a farce....it is not geographically "farther out". that is a simple assessment of distance...it can't be disproven.

animal kingdom lodge has not fulfilled disney expectations - which is to be at capacity 365 days a year. that is their expectation with every unit put online. And the retrofit of the existing rooms for DVC is an admission of a problem...you can interpret the reasons the way you choose...there are more than a few legitimate suspect reasons. I bring up the Tea Party reason. And even if you blame it solely on bus/ transport time...that doesn't hold. Caribbean is the highest ( or one of the highest...it used to be the highest) occupied WDW resort and the transport times based on their bus configuration were higher than almost anywhere else...especially at peak crowd season. if the bus time was that big of a deal...why would they fill their rooms? has to be more to it than that....

is that a reasonable idea?

 

[troynkasey]

I'm not disproving your theory. It's a theory with information bent the right way has legs. That's the case with any theory. Information can be bent, manipulated, changed, etc to fit our needs. No one will know for sure why Disney did what they did. You say its because of the decor and not enough of a draw. Others say it's because of the distance from everything. Personally, I think it's because AK isn't a big draw park so there's not the draw of staying right by the park like there is if you stat at BLT or CR and walk to the park. My point is you have your theory and without coming out and saying it, you're stating this is the reason. Your rationale and experience to me are a drawback. You have experience on property from being there so much. To me, this is a drawback. You DON'T know what tourists and folks from outside the area that stay at the resort are thinking unless you've worked in the Marketing area or have taken part in focus groups, surveying, etc to get real feedback and not your own opinions. Do I think you're wrong? No. Do I think you're right? No. I don't know. What I have a problem with is you pick a fight with anyone who questions what you said. We all have opinions and we all have theories that have just as much potential for being right as yours.

I'm not going to go back and read through the thread, but have you stayed at AKL? Have you traveld to DW and stayed on property as a tourist? Have you gone through the decision making process as someone from outside Florida to see what you want to do? If not, then how do you know what tourists think? You know what you, the Floridian and seasoned DisneyWorld person thinks. Two completely different people there. THAT is my issue.

 

[troynkasey]

My thoughts about AKL and the theming not being a big hit are based on some reasonable analysis of the trends and facts dealing with its history and the difficulties filling the rooms.

Here you state it's the theming. When people provide feedback on resorts, there are a number of things that go into account but first we have to decide what type of Disney visitor they are. Are we looking at the "sleep and shower" resort person who eats at the parks. They leave early in the morning and only go back to shower, sleep and do it all over again the next day. They may use the pool. The other would be someone who wants to spend time at the resort, swim a day, relax around the resort some. Maybe stay 8-10 days, but only go to the parks 6 days. These two visitors have different priorities and requirements.

Most people look at restraunts at the resort, location, type of room wanted (king bed, two queens, studio, villas, etc.) The type of room to me is the first distinguishing factor. If I have 6 people and want a 2 bedroom, that will limit where I can stay. After this, some will look at restraunt or easy transportation where they love (boat ride to HS or Epcot, boat to DTD, boat to MK, etc.) The ease of going to favorite park is a big draw for some folks. Others want to stay somewhere new. Others have a preference or something they don't like. Don't like CR because of the "cutting edge feel" of stuff. Don't like the darkness or don't care about the animals at AKL. Don't like the woodsy and dark feel to WL. Too fancy such as GF. Looks run down in reference to the Poly.

These are all comments I've read on here or read on AllEars in reference to trip reports or ratings of hotels. My point being that yes, the theming, African decor, darkness, or whatever you want to say about AKL may be a contributing factor to not being full, but I don't believe it's the sole reason. The points I referenced above are some and it may come down to something that fits their needs more was available.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm not disproving your theory. It's a theory with information bent the right way has legs. That's the case with any theory. Information can be bent, manipulated, changed, etc to fit our needs. No one will know for sure why Disney did what they did. You say its because of the decor and not enough of a draw. Others say it's because of the distance from everything. Personally, I think it's because AK isn't a big draw park so there's not the draw of staying right by the park like there is if you stat at BLT or CR and walk to the park. My point is you have your theory and without coming out and saying it, you're stating this is the reason. Your rationale and experience to me are a drawback. You have experience on property from being there so much. To me, this is a drawback. You DON'T know what tourists and folks from outside the area that stay at the resort are thinking unless you've worked in the Marketing area or have taken part in focus groups, surveying, etc to get real feedback and not your own opinions. Do I think you're wrong? No. Do I think you're right? No. I don't know. What I have a problem with is you pick a fight with anyone who questions what you said. We all have opinions and we all have theories that have just as much potential for being right as yours.

I'm not going to go back and read through the thread, but have you stayed at AKL? Have you traveld to DW and stayed on property as a tourist? Have you gone through the decision making process as someone from outside Florida to see what you want to do? If not, then how do you know what tourists think? You know what you, the Floridian and seasoned DisneyWorld person thinks. Two completely different people there. THAT is my issue.

former florida resident and seasoned vet...

currently trapped in new jersey...

stayed at AKL about 10 times...first at the "old" lodge...3 times DVC.

We love the theme and the layout of the place...its probably their best overall themed hotel ever constructed (wilderness would be high on that list too)

So i have both the perspectives. We worked hard for disney...left when there was no opportunity to go farther...moved to other fields...then had our wedding there and have since traveled multiple times each year and purchased DVC 4 years ago...i'm in my mid-30's

so you can fault my arguements or statements...but the experience i base it on is solid.

My indictment in this case is not of the product...but the consumer. I love the african theme and decor...i love what they try to do there. I don't love the park so much because they left the job about 50% done...but that's another story.

I don't think the clientele will ever property appreciated it. And just to be clear: Disney's customers can easily be called elitist. (opinion...and of course it doesn't apply to everyone...it is a generalization on my part - i am acknowledging that) They wanted it that way (opinion) based on the prices and their development over the years. The contemp and poly were "hotels" when they opened...now they are "deluxe resorts" at 400 a night 40 years later with minimal changes? that dog don't hunt. They charge you above the head rates for hotels based on the services offered and 85 bucks a head to walk through a gate each day...before you eat a bite or pick up a piece of merchandise...that is still a premium setup that is not meant for everybody. It never was in the agreement with the public. They promised you the quality (which is a major problem these days) if you were willing to pay for it...but at no discount.

But i sure love WDW...so much that i've become a very vocal critic in a format such as this...which was discussed on another thread today.

Those of us that criticize might just love the place the most...but I can also see that the sky is blue (speaking for myself only)

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Here you state it's the theming. When people provide feedback on resorts, there are a number of things that go into account but first we have to decide what type of Disney visitor they are. Are we looking at the "sleep and shower" resort person who eats at the parks. They leave early in the morning and only go back to shower, sleep and do it all over again the next day. They may use the pool. The other would be someone who wants to spend time at the resort, swim a day, relax around the resort some. Maybe stay 8-10 days, but only go to the parks 6 days. These two visitors have different priorities and requirements.

Most people look at restraunts at the resort, location, type of room wanted (king bed, two queens, studio, villas, etc.) The type of room to me is the first distinguishing factor. If I have 6 people and want a 2 bedroom, that will limit where I can stay. After this, some will look at restraunt or easy transportation where they love (boat ride to HS or Epcot, boat to DTD, boat to MK, etc.) The ease of going to favorite park is a big draw for some folks. Others want to stay somewhere new. Others have a preference or something they don't like. Don't like CR because of the "cutting edge feel" of stuff. Don't like the darkness or don't care about the animals at AKL. Don't like the woodsy and dark feel to WL. Too fancy such as GF. Looks run down in reference to the Poly.

These are all comments I've read on here or read on AllEars in reference to trip reports or ratings of hotels. My point being that yes, the theming, African decor, darkness, or whatever you want to say about AKL may be a contributing factor to not being full, but I don't believe it's the sole reason. The points I referenced above are some and it may come down to something that fits their needs more was available.

i think we acutally agree here. my premise is that theming has been detrimental to the demand of AKL.
I would never say/ think that its the only reason. As you said...there are many reasons why things are choosen there - and perceptions color alot of them. "Le Cellier is the best food ever"...not really better than 50% of the restaurants in WDW (at all)...but its a cult following now. Perception became reality in demand. But i think it (the theming) is significant - which Disney would never admit.