New crowd level predictions by UG

lentesta said:
Hi folks,

Thanks very much for the feedback, and for visiting the site! Just to clarify something about what the numbers mean. They're not predictions of how long you and your family will wait in line. They're predictions of what the worst wait will be at any of the three MK headliner attractions. If you visit these attractions early in the morning or late at night (or use FASTPASS), you'll never experience these kinds of waits.

We've recorded almost seven weeks of data so far this year in the Magic Kingdom, with at least one full week in every month. Only twice have we seen peak waits of less than 30 minutes, and that was during a cold spell in January with temperatures almost 20 degrees below normal. That's unusual, and I don't think we can build our model around that assumption. So there may be some days, especially off-season, where we're estimating maybe 10 minutes high. In that case, we'd rather be a bit high than a bit low.

Someone had asked about Easter Sunday versus spring break. This year, Easter Sunday had slightly lower peak waits than most days during spring break. I think we addressed possible reasons for this in the crowd blog, too.

Thanks again for reading the site.

Len
Len-

First of all, many thanks for your work and research. My wife and I have been unofficial guide junkies for probably ten years running now, and purchase the book even in the rare year when we don't visit just to enjoy the updates and added ancedotes. We've joked that a royalty check sent our way would not be totally unexpected due to sheer number of people we've told to buy that book whenever we're asked for Disney advice by friends, workers and total strangers who find out just how much we enjoy the mouse and how often we go there.

Second, congrats! The two of us have lurked on the DIS boards for a long long time and have never felt a need to jump into the foray until your post. So for better or worse, if I continue to post after this thread, I'm blaming it entirely on you.....lol

We're heading back down there for the second half of September, and to be blunt, it was the Best Days guide that finalized our decision to not go during the last two weeks of August and instead pull DD-11 out of school even though the school year will only be eight days old when we yank her. (For those who live in the South, it might amaze you to learn that she doesn't start until the Thursday after Labor Day, and that's pretty standard around the Northeast). We saw that our intended days in August started at 6's, and yielded a couple of 4's at the tail end of our sixteen days down there. The last two weeks of September were all 1's marred by the occasional 2. One didn't have to be Einstein to realize that the quality of the visit would be significantly better by waiting a few weeks.

So, imagine our shock when the updated revisions were just released. The 1's and 2's have mutated into 4's and the occasional 5 & 6. I consoled myself at first by scanning the entire year and realizing that 4 was still the lowest number all year, and that the time we had picked was still, based on your schedule, optimum.

Your earlier post explaining the rationale behind the change helped to shed some light, but I still think your updated grading system is flawed, and possibly misleading. If I understand you correctly, ratings are now based on a number corresponding to the average wait time for the headliner rides. In order to achieve a 1, there would have to be an average wait of 5-15 minutes within your measuring period on the headliners. Your new rating system says that in the course of the year, that will never happen at all, and that the lowest average wait time will be between 35-45 minutes. If I'm wrong about this point, I'll humbly apologize and return to my lurking post and remain quiet.

I think there's an inherent problem with this sort of grading scale. Your new system assumes that there will eventually come a day when absolutely no line will ever form at a headliner, and that day will be the new 1. I think the crowd conditions need to be looked at from the perspective of the (real world now) quietest days of the year vs. the busiest. Under this system, 1 is the quietest, and 10 the busiest, or in other words, just like you had it before. I applaud your attempts to give the rating system some sort of real time meaning instead of the old "quietest time vs. busiest time" method (which I have no doubt many first timers probably thought was too vague to have meaning). In the process, I think you've done a bigger injustice because there's going to be a far bigger difference between, say, an 8 and a 10 in terms of mobs at the park than the new scale would imply. People are conditioned to think of terms of 1-10, and your new grading system, based on real time numbers, doesn't allow for that. Is it realistic to expect that Christmas week could now be graded a 12 or a 13 if that's how long the line is? Capping at ten becomes meaningless. So please....either go completely to a real time system and remove the upper end limit of ten, or revert back to the old method of 1-10 based on the quietest days vs. the busiest days of the year. Either one of those would be more fair and more instinctive to readers than the scale you've presently decided on.

Whew.......

Okay, having lowered my blood pressure by typing this novella, I'll fly back to my loft, but before I do, two quick notes about the absolutely wonderful and indispensible Unofficial guide that come to mind. I'd greatly appreciate you passing these on to the appropiate editor.....

1) The guide does note that gum is not sold in the parks (and rightly so, IMHO). The guide does need to note that the long arm of the mouse extends to the airport as well since gum is seemingly unavailable there as well. This is a major inconvenience for those of us wishing to lower ear pressure in the cabin by chewing gum on the return flights back home.

2) Please allow for more reader mail in future editions! It's always one of the best parts of the book. To this day, I cannot walk by It's A Small World without visualizing a dispensing rack filled with softballs..........

Thanks for the time taken to read this, and my deepest repects for the incredible job your team does of cramming WDW into a measly 800 pages or so and still making it a great read.
 
spiceycat said:
Disney is adding to this.

on the sign it says 20 min wait - I saw the line couldn't believe it was 20 minutes and it certainly wasn't - more like 5.

lately they are putting more 20 min waits when it reality it can be alot less.

they use to be more accuracy in their wait times.

the fast pass for Test Track doesn't seem to work as well as the Single line.
so if your group will break up - this is the route to take.

I found this to be true also. When we went on Buzz, it said 20 minute wait and it was actually less than 5 minutes. We went on it a second time and they had changed the sign to say 25 minutes. Again, it was less than 5 minutes. We also went on Splash when it said it was a 15 minute wait and it was actually a walk-on. In fact, the waits were always less than the stated times.

I'm not sure what a better way would be. It seems like using the worst case peak wait time isn't the best way to measure overall crowd levels because you may have days that aren't very crowded overall, but for some reason, a lot of people show up to a certain ride at the same time of day. I would think average wait times would be a much better indicator, but figuring out what the averages are would obviously require so much data gathering that it's not practical.

So Len,
If you guys could just invent a crystal ball, that would be great. ;)

I just read the post above mine and I also agree. I don't think it's really important to know the peak wait times. I think most people use the best days chart as a way to compare one day or time of year to another, not to find out how long they may wait in line. And for that, having a 1 correspond to the least crowded conditions and a 10 correspond to the most crowded conditions makes the most sense.
 
I own and have read UG and the only time I really used it was the first year we went. That was 2000. Am making our sixth trip next Feb/Mar. The ratings for my week are 5 but I have learned to put much more stock in what the DIS'ers have to say than in what the book has to say. Especially the repeat DIS'ers. If they are reporting crowd levels as low or high, that's what I'd expect. You can always perform a search on crowd levels for your dates for historical info too!
 
Thanks Bobbysdog! I hope the book is as much fun to read as it is to write. You'll be fine during your September trip - a "4" isn't very bust, on average. FWIW, I believe the Magic Kingdom's got Night of Joy on the 9th and 10th this year. If you don't have park hopping on your tickets, ensure you'll be able to get everything out of the MK you want if you visit on those days.

Regarding your comments on the 1-10 scale, yes, there are days that would have been rated higher than 10 had we not capped it. The week after Christmas, for example, should have its longest waits exceed 110 minutes. But we didn't think it was useful to differentiate between, say, a day with 100 minute waits, and days with 120 minute waits. Both those numbers are almost universally regarded as "bad," and beyond a certain point we didn't see the need to quantify the badness. Also, the vast majority of wait times fall between 25 and 105 minutes, so that's where we felt the need to concentrate.

As you suspect, I don't think we'll ever rate a day as a "1." We started the scale at 1 = about 10 minutes in order to make the conversion from rating to minutes easy. In this case, it's just a multiple of ten. Had we started the scale with "1" equal to, say, 25 minutes, we would have ended up with something like

Minutes = (Scale * 10) + 15

I think you'll agree it's easier to remember the first. We wanted to avoid a situation where someone remembered the rating (say, a "3"), but couldn't remember whether it was "Scale times ten, plus fifteen" or "Scale times fifteen, plus 10." So the "1" rating got sacrificed for usability.

There will certainly be some "4" days that are slower than others. I'll go back and see whether we may be willing to go out on a limb and predict 3's for those days. My concern would be that we'd underestimate the worst waits, but I'll see what our statistician says.

Finally, we use "peak wait time" because we thought that the worst-case scenario would be more easily understood than, say, the average wait time for a given day. That is, we would have had to explain what timeframe the average spanned, what the range was, and so on. Picking the maximum value is easier to explain.

Hope this helps. Good luck on your trip. Let me know if there's anything else we can help with.

Sincerely,

Len
 

Len,
I happen to teach statistics and your new system seems more reasonable to me. I'm not sure that is comforting because we statisticians are often accused of thinking in ways that seem foreign to the general population. Anyway, I appreciate your efforts and approve of your method.
JimmieD
 
So can anyone explain why some of the numbers are un-intuitive and go against previous info I've read in the UG - such as why the last week in March 06 is all 10s, but the week before and of Easter are down to 7? And why is the beginning of June rated higher than the middle and end? Again - conventional wisdom is the crowds keep building through the month and peak around July 4th. Has the info in the past been incorrect or are the times a changing?
 
I went to see what parks I might want to do on what days at my Best Days bookmark and I almost went into full blown vapor lock at the sight of a 4 everyday of our December, Value Season vacation, but after reading this thread, I feel better. Thanks to the DisBoards, I can breath again. Maggie
 
We were there from 5/7-5/13 (remember, this was 2 days after the official start of Celebration) and they had the parks pegged at crowd levels of 8 for most of the parks and days. I was expecting a real mess with long lines. Boy, was I wrong (pleasantly so). The only real crowd was during the 9 PM parade at MK on a Tuesday night; but that's pretty usual. Other than that, the crowds were fine. For example, we were at DS and were able to ride TOT four times with no wait time and that was with the Rock N Roll coaster down because of mechanical problems. So, I agree with a previous post, don't always believe what they say when it comes to crowd levels.
I would suggest you do what we did: go with the attitude that if it's crowded, so what. It's still Disney and it's still a vacation.
 
Well, this has officially become (by far) the largest thread I have ever started. I brought out a lurker. And, I have kept Len very busy!

I don't expect to know exactly how long a wait will be, but hope to gain insight as to how holidays and special events (Jersey week, Pop Warner, marathon) affect crowds. BTW, looks like the UG doesn't think Jersey week has as much of an impact as some posters here on the DIS have noticed in the past.

Finally, in re-reading the explanation of the ratings scale, it would appear that it really only applies to the Magic Kingdom. So a day that is listed as a 5 or 6 might be very uncrowded at Animal Kingdom, especially if it is listed as the "best park" for that day. Right?

Tammy
 
I really like the new rating scheme, it makes the numbers much more transparent. Thanks for the hard work Len.
 
"full blown vapor lock" - that's great! I almost snorted coffee out of my nose. A "4" means the worst wait of the day will be around 40 minutes, which is comparatively light for the parks. You'll be fine. I'll be there in December, too (for Mousefest), so there's a chance you can yell at me in person if I'm wrong.

dijid, the easiest explanation is that public schools' spring breaks doesn't track as close to Easter as they once did. That is, more public schools are on vacation in late March than during Easter itself.

TammyC, we've not yet decided how to translate the crowd ratings to specific parks. But based on the data we have for the Magic Kingdom, I think our "best days" recommendations are pretty darn good. I see no reason to change those right now.

JimmieD, thanks very much. Fortunately, we have a really good statistican who walked me through much of this. And I learned a lot about Excel's data analysis capabilities. :) FWIW, the correlation (in Excel) of our crowd predictions to actual wait times is just over 0.80. Not perfect, but not guessing, either.

Okay, time for a shameless plug: If all goes well, I'll be talking about Disney World on the "The Travel Show with Valarie D'Elia" on WOR this coming Sunday, June 5, starting at 12:15 pm Eastern. There's a live internet feed available on WOR's website, and you can call in toll free at 800-544-7070. My family's already planning to ask why Donald Duck doesn't wear pants, so don't use that question. If anyone knows whether I can pre-pay my FCC fine now, drop me a line.

Len
 
e.g., the 40,000 people for the Performance Racing Industries gathering)

I have never heard of this event..Is it new??...When are the dates for it???..We always go during POP week and have never had too much problems and are planning a trip this year.....I agree with Len a good plan is best the best defense...

I would like more info on this event if someone has it...thanks in advance and thanks Len for all the great work yall do...
 
lentesta - thanks for answering about why the end of March is going to be more crowded than Easter, but what about the beginning of June being more crowded than the end? We were thinking we might go the first week of June, but if we went by your chart, we'd be better off waiting a week or two - which puts us when most of the schools have already gotten off!?
 
dijid, "Gay Days" are usually held the first week of June, with more than a hundred thousand people expected this year. There are two separate organizations that schedule events, and they typically set aside one day each for the four Disney theme parks. The websites for these events are www.GayDay.com and www.GayDays.com.

Our park recommendations take these schedules into account, as do the crowd levels. Disney's adjusted their EMH schedule around these days, too, I think.

Hope this helps.

Len
 
Len,
Does the change in the best days chart, coincide with the "Cheat Sheets" for each park? Let's say, if my dates previously were a 7 or 8, should I look at the cheat sheets for crowd levels of 9-10 or the cheat sheet for crowds 6-8?
 
4 does not sound high at all. I was there at very much peak days; while riding on the bus to MK and hearing that MK was closed (at 10:30 am). I was able to go in and have a great time. Don't let a prediction spoil what could be a great time.
 
Len-
Random question, but can you give me an idea of why Monday Feb 13 (the Monday before President's Day) would be ranked an 8?

I'm sure there's some reasonable explanation, but I can't figure it out! :confused3

Thanks!
 
TammyC said:
Well, this has officially become (by far) the largest thread I have ever started. I brought out a lurker. And, I have kept Len very busy!

I don't expect to know exactly how long a wait will be, but hope to gain insight as to how holidays and special events (Jersey week, Pop Warner, marathon) affect crowds. BTW, looks like the UG doesn't think Jersey week has as much of an impact as some posters here on the DIS have noticed in the past.

Finally, in re-reading the explanation of the ratings scale, it would appear that it really only applies to the Magic Kingdom. So a day that is listed as a 5 or 6 might be very uncrowded at Animal Kingdom, especially if it is listed as the "best park" for that day. Right?

Tammy
Not so much a lurker as one who hasn't posted for awhile. When I looked at the ratings (I can't remember the url), I was looking at a list that showed all the parks. Anyway, when it came time to really decide where and when to go, I went with the recommendation by Disney; again, sorry, I can't remember the url. It was evidently in reply to an email to them and they explained that based on their historical analysis, they listed the parks that experienced the most crowds on certain days of the weeks.
 








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