New AP info I heard today!!

[nunzia]

You’re quite correct in your assumption that I don’t manage Disney…my existing business commitments keep me busy enough…..although I believe that I’m reasonably well qualified to comment on the general principals at play and I think I’m entitled to put my two cents worth into a discussion forum along with everyone else…........even if they don’t line up with yours and as you say we could debate this forever….

Actually isn’t that kind of the point of a discussion (or discussion forum, come to that) to enable the exchange of views and information?

In any case my comments weren’t really for your exclusive consumption, but the discussion in general…..Sorry if my comments caused any bunching (of underpants) to occur… I’ll try refrain from addressing or quoting any of your posts in future though just to be on the safe side

Boys, Boys..please don't get snitful. Very interesting back and forth with great points of view and good reading, one of the most interesing threads in quite awhile, so let's keep up the discussion with all different points of view.

 

[CrazyDuck]

Did the AP count go from 65,000 to 1,000,000 only after Disneyland introduced the payment plan for California people?

 

[californiamomof4grls]

Boys, Boys..please don't get snitful. Very interesting back and forth with great points of view and good reading, one of the most interesing threads in quit awhile, so let's keep up the discussion with all different points of view.

Nunizia I SO agree. We should remember that in order to have a forum where things are discussed openly, we must treat one another respectfully. Or else people might get the wrong idea about our boards. Besides it's very important to remember that when reading these posts we sometimes interrupt the inflection in ones voice as good or bad, when in truth it may not have been meant in that manner. Just a thought.
Obviously this is a touchy subject, as is understood. Everybody wants DL to be their secret getaway. But whether the parks are crowded or full it doesn't really matter it's about you and your families attitude. Are you going to have a great time no matter what? Did you get this time off to spend with your family so that you could watch the joy on your children's faces as you approach the Mickey for the first time today. Our are you going to gripe to your spouse about the attendance that day. Choose to get a dole whip and have a great time with your family and believe that it will all work out. That the money you spent was worth the joy you see in your family, no matter how many people were in the park that day!
* Just so I don't get misunderstood this was said in kindness.

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

I agree completely with the scenario you mentioned. Now imagine having the same scenario except that you have just spent multiple thousands of dollars just getting to DL and you know that you may never be able to come back. So really, not being able to ride the rides you want or get into the shops you want to spend money in, means that you have to miss out forever. It's not like we can necessarily just come back next week, or month or year or maybe even decade.

I think DL has created a situation where the people that really have to make a major effort (eg saving for years and travelling for days) to get to DL will reconsider a 2nd or 3rd trip because they have been made to feel somewhat like cattle being herded.
xxx

This is exactly what happened to 2 of my family members (with their kids and spouses) and 2 other friends with their family in tow. They hated it and won't be back. They don't understand how I can still go to the park and enjoy it with the massive crowds, rides closures, etc. 1st, I try to go on season so I can ride and see/do everything so I know in advance I'm going to get crowds, 2nd it's my happy place so I suck it up. Seriously though, my friends husband almost got into a fight at DL because it was so oppressively busy and I guess he thought people were being rude to him and cutting him off, etc.
Honestly though, I didn't expect the massive crowds from this past June. I thought I went right before the crazy busy time. But it's all crazy busy nowadays. I do understand, however. It's hard when you're spending thousands of dollars just in airfare alone to get there and then have it be like that. Disclosure: I was also a DAP holder for the first time ever last year. I let it expire, but will probably get another one the next time I go and I live 6+ hours away from DL by air.

So if it is only a "perception" of hideous crowds, then an awful lot of folks are perceiving it that way. But the facts and figures back up the perceptions. I have no reason to say the crowds were unmanageable if they were really manageable. I have been there enough times since 1972 when the crowds were fine to deal with. In fact, when I went to DLR on the weekend right before Christmas in 2008 and in 2007, I found the crowds to be "manageable" enough. But when I went back on the exact same weekend in 2009, the crowds were hideous!! I have not seen a line for POTC so long since the early, early '90s! The crowds were bad all over DL, wherever we went. There was not one area that was spared, and the wall of people surrounding IASW Holiday was so impenetrable that all four people in my group looked at it and said, "Eh...we don't need to go on it again, do we?" (And we love that ride!) It was worse than the 2 previous years. I am telling you, the crowds all over DL were really bad. The park reached capacity very early on in the day, so that should tell you they were bad.

I dunno, Sherry, the crowds in January 2009 holidays were pretty insane too. I remember experiencing the same thing as you on IASW. In fact, my DH and I almost got into it because the line was so insane to get on IASWH it wrapped and looped around the Fantasyland stage area several times (across from Matterhorn). It seemed like we waited in that line for a very long time before we got in. I believe we only went on it twice -- once during the day and once at night -- and after that he said heck no. IASWH is also one of my favorite rides, so that speaks volumes that we refused to wait in that line any more for the rest of our trip. Also, the lines for POTC were insanely long due to no FP (although it moved relatively quickly for the size of the line) and looped around and up and down the ROA, as did HMH. It was pretty crazy.

Yes, you are right! I hadn't even thought of that international visitor factor. For you and so many others from other countries, you may not get the chance to come back to DLR or the States and so you sort of have to either suffer through the crowds to eat where you want or shop where you want despite feeling like herded cattle, or, as you said, reconsider another trip to do whatever you didn't get to do the first time around, and it may not be that easy to do that.

Yep, and as I posted above, several of my friends/family were so disappointed in their trip experiences and being herded like cattle that they will never go back. They didn't get a chance to experience the magic. And what's worse is they don't get how I can still go and feel the magic when it's crazy busy like that. Is it more magical when it's less busy? Yes. But it's still my happy place!

 

[HydroGuy]

This is exactly what happened to 2 of my family members (with their kids and spouses) and 2 other friends with their family in tow. They hated it and won't be back. They don't understand how I can still go to the park and enjoy it with the massive crowds, rides closures, etc. 1st, I try to go on season so I can ride and see/do everything so I know in advance I'm going to get crowds, 2nd it's my happy place so I suck it up. Seriously though, my friends husband almost got into a fight at DL because it was so oppressively busy and I guess he thought people were being rude to him and cutting him off, etc.
Honestly though, I didn't expect the massive crowds from this past June. I thought I went right before the crazy busy time. But it's all crazy busy nowadays. I do understand, however. It's hard when you're spending thousands of dollars just in airfare alone to get there and then have it be like that. Disclosure: I was also a DAP holder for the first time ever last year. I let it expire, but will probably get another one the next time I go and I live 6+ hours away from DL by air.

I dunno, Sherry, the crowds in January 2009 holidays were pretty insane too. I remember experiencing the same thing as you on IASW. In fact, my DH and I almost got into it because the line was so insane to get on IASWH it wrapped and looped around the Fantasyland stage area several times (across from Matterhorn). It seemed like we waited in that line for a very long time before we got in. I believe we only went on it twice -- once during the day and once at night -- and after that he said heck no. IASWH is also one of my favorite rides, so that speaks volumes that we refused to wait in that line any more for the rest of our trip. Also, the lines for POTC were insanely long due to no FP (although it moved relatively quickly for the size of the line) and looped around and up and down the ROA, as did HMH. It was pretty crazy.

Yep, and as I posted above, several of my friends/family were so disappointed in their trip experiences and being herded like cattle that they will never go back. They didn't get a chance to experience the magic. And what's worse is they don't get how I can still go and feel the magic when it's crazy busy like that. Is it more magical when it's less busy? Yes. But it's still my happy place!

Not sure what your friends and family did, but whether at DLR or WDW one needs to do some research and planning to avoid the worst of the lines. Even a little effort to understand about early arrival at the parks, when the shows are and how early to arrive, use of RideMax, use of FP, etc., can go a long ways. I know some people I talk to refuse to do any of the above. Then they are surprised and disappointed the lines are so long.

Some people spend thousands of dollars and arrive with no plan at all.

 

[Sherry E]

I dunno, Sherry, the crowds in January 2009 holidays were pretty insane too. I remember experiencing the same thing as you on IASW. In fact, my DH and I almost got into it because the line was so insane to get on IASWH it wrapped and looped around the Fantasyland stage area several times (across from Matterhorn). It seemed like we waited in that line for a very long time before we got in. I believe we only went on it twice -- once during the day and once at night -- and after that he said heck no. IASWH is also one of my favorite rides, so that speaks volumes that we refused to wait in that line any more for the rest of our trip. Also, the lines for POTC were insanely long due to no FP (although it moved relatively quickly for the size of the line) and looped around and up and down the ROA, as did HMH. It was pretty crazy.

Yep, and as I posted above, several of my friends/family were so disappointed in their trip experiences and being herded like cattle that they will never go back. They didn't get a chance to experience the magic. And what's worse is they don't get how I can still go and feel the magic when it's crazy busy like that. Is it more magical when it's less busy? Yes. But it's still my happy place!

That IASHW experience you had in 1/09 does not surprise me because I think the crowds got crazier in 2009 in general (except for those unexpected blips of uncrowdedness here and there like over 4th of July) after so many folks got their AP's. So that makes perfect sense. It is not encouraging for those of us who can't handle oppressive crowds, but it makes sense! And it made sense when I read that DL reached capacity early on the day I was there in December, and that the 2009 Holiday season was the busiest one in ten years because I could see it all over the park, you know what I mean? Usually, in a typically crowded day for DL, you will see large congregations of people in certain areas but other areas may be downright empty or pleasant. On this day we went in December, there was no escaping the people. The masses were everywhere, but they were just 'worse' in places like IASWH and HMH, POTC, etc. I could definitely tell that this was a busier December day than my 2 previous December trips on that same weekend. So my 'magic' detector was way down, even though I had fun.

Not only do I spend less money, take fewer photos, observe fewer magical details and nuances of the parks and do less in general when it is that crowded in DL as it was when I was there, but if I had a crystal ball that told me that those same crowds from December and October were going to be in DL every time I to there from now on, and that DCA was going to suddenly get hit with massive crowds too - I would seriously be less interested in going to DLR for a long time. I can see that my friends' patience and stamina for DLR is waning over time too, so I am sure that we are not the only ones in that boat. Others must feel the same way too. I think the huge crowds that flock to DLR this year for WoC will probably be a deterrent for some folks to want to come back for a while. That will be good and bad!

 

[blackjackdelta]

Nunizia I SO agree. We should remember that in order to have a forum where things are discussed openly, we must treat one another respectfully. Or else people might get the wrong idea about our boards. Besides it's very important to remember that when reading these posts we sometimes interrupt the inflection in ones voice as good or bad, when in truth it may not have been meant in that manner. Just a thought.
Obviously this is a touchy subject, as is understood. Everybody wants DL to be their secret getaway. But whether the parks are crowded or full it doesn't really matter it's about you and your families attitude. Are you going to have a great time no matter what? Did you get this time off to spend with your family so that you could watch the joy on your children's faces as you approach the Mickey for the first time today. Our are you going to gripe to your spouse about the attendance that day. Choose to get a dole whip and have a great time with your family and believe that it will all work out. That the money you spent was worth the joy you see in your family, no matter how many people were in the park that day!
* Just so I don't get misunderstood this was said in kindness.

I so agree. We all have opinions based on what works for us. I just did not want to beat this to death when it really is "off topic." But I must admit these discussions get spirited sometimes.

Jack

 

[Leofoenget]

Not sure what your friends and family did, but whether at DLR or WDW one needs to do some research and planning to avoid the worst of the lines. Even a little effort to understand about early arrival at the parks, when the shows are and how early to arrive, use of RideMax, use of FP, etc., can go a long ways. I know some people I talk to refuse to do any of the above. Then they are surprised and disappointed the lines are so long.

Some people spend thousands of dollars and arrive with no plan at all.

I have gone out of my way to keep track of crowd levels based on information gleened from the various boards etc. It's HARD to plan a trip with the least amount of crowds but I have been able to do it. Sometimes it involves taking a child out of school 1 day to avoid horrible crowds. 1st you have to figure out when the NORMAL crowds are, then when the AP'S are blocked out or not blocked out, THEN you have to take the LA schools schedule into account, not to mention weather in LA, ride clousers etc. The days of the casual drop in spend the day at DL are over. How can the average out of town tourist do this? I understand DL wants the $$ but at some point I think it's too much. I don't understand why DL offers 2 levels of So Cal AP's why can't they just offer 1 plus the D and PAP?

 

[Sherry E]

I have gone out of my way to keep track of crowd levels based on information gleened from the various boards etc. It's HARD to plan a trip with the least amount of crowds but I have been able to do it. Sometimes it involves taking a child out of school 1 day to avoid horrible crowds. 1st you have to figure out when the NORMAL crowds are, then when the AP'S are blocked out or not blocked out, THEN you have to take the LA schools schedule into account, not to mention weather in LA, ride clousers etc. The days of the casual drop in spend the day at DL are over. How can the average out of town tourist do this? I understand DL wants the $$ but at some point I think it's too much. I don't understand why DL offers 2 levels of So Cal AP's why can't they just offer 1 plus the D and PAP?

I agree. As much info as there is to be obtained here on the DIS and from other sources, there are visitors who, for whatever reason, cannot take that much time to monitor everything or plan every detail and some folks who just want to visit DLR without a really strict FP schedule and PSs for every meal or whatever. I can plan much better for a weekend trip than I can for a day trip, where we are meeting up with friends at a time that is not determined until later in the day. Sometimes we just can't plan and prepare for everything, or we are with people who move at a different pace, with a different agenda, and we can still be daunted and put off by the oppressive crowds (especially when the crowds were not expected to be as bad at that particularly time of year).

I also agree about the AP. I can see why they would want to offer a lower level AP of some kind, but I don't see why there have to be 2 SoCal APs. They should really just combine the 2 SoCal APs into one and hike up the price a bit. If they hike up the SoCal AP price substantially, then offer the payment plan. If they only hike up the price a little bit, then eliminate the payment plan for everything but the DAP and the PAP.

 

[tholczer]

Maybe there has been discussion about this over the last six pages, but as an AP holder who tried to go to DL this last friday the 8th, I say bring on the crowd control. It was REDICULOUS. We left after an hour or so and didn't get to ride anything.

The only caveat being that there should be a number we can call ahead of time to see if the parks are closed to AP holders, thereby saving ourselves a trip. I wouldn't mind this at all if it meant a more pleasurable experience in the long run. I think the problem is that all the locals get off work (like we did) and flood the place. If you get there first thing in the am, you won't have a problem getting in. If they do start turning away AP holders, I'm sure they wouldn't turn away those people who got there first thing and had a hand stamp.

Come on people, we need to be willing to give a little! I know we bought the passes and I know we expect we should be able to go whenever we want, but maybe that's a little unreasonable at this point (and I know we didn't create this mess). But I'm all for doing whatever it takes to make Disneyland less crowded. Even if that means giving up some time there/having to plan my trip more carefully. (Please don't shoot me!)

Who's with me?? Or do I stand alone??

Tracy

 

[CrazyDuck]

Maybe there has been discussion about this over the last six pages, but as an AP holder who tried to go to DL this last friday the 8th, I say bring on the crowd control. It was REDICULOUS. We left after an hour or so and didn't get to ride anything.

The crowds most likely were not from AP holders, rather they were the 100,000 people in town for the BCS National championship game that happened the night before on the 7th.

 

[tholczer]

That's good to know. But my point still stands.

Tracy

 

[Peace.love.mickey]

Bring on the crowds...I am still going...sticking to my plan...still spending $ while I am there AND renewing my AP! WOO HOO! Oh and I don't live in S. Cal.

Here is what we always say...how cool would DL be for one day with no strollers!?!? HA HA! PLEASE do not take offense to this...just think about it I swear everytime I am there I get a stroller wheel in my heal! !

 

[Mugglemama]

Bring on the crowds...I am still going...sticking to my plan...still spending $ while I am there AND renewing my AP! WOO HOO! Oh and I don't live in S. Cal.

Here is what we always say...how cool would DL be for one day with no strollers!?!? HA HA! PLEASE do not take offense to this...just think about it I swear everytime I am there I get a stroller wheel in my heal! !

lol, try being the one who has to jerk your kid to a screeching halt in their stroller just to avoid someone who would otherwise step right on them.

i've never actually been rolled on/bumped by a stroller at DLR, but i have many, many, many times had to yank the stroller quickly backwards to keep my kid from being injured by an inconsiderate adult who is pushing their way through the crowds. these were not people we were walking behind...they were people who came up behind us, or came at us from the side.

 

[DDhunter]

It is not only a "perception" of hideous crowds, though. Numbers, facts and figures have come out and shown that the crowds have been steadily rising in the last year or two, partially due to the huge influx of AP holders. There is no getting around the facts and statistics. I believe it was written somewhere just in the last week (maybe it was in Al Lutz's column?) that this past holiday season was the busiest one in the park(s) in a decade. Also, many, many other people on this board have reported encountering really bad crowds at certain times where there used to not be really bad crowds.

So if it is only a "perception" of hideous crowds, then an awful lot of folks are perceiving it that way. But the facts and figures back up the perceptions. I have no reason to say the crowds were unmanageable if they were really manageable. I have been there enough times since 1972 when the crowds were fine to deal with. In fact, when I went to DLR on the weekend right before Christmas in 2008 and in 2007, I found the crowds to be "manageable" enough. But when I went back on the exact same weekend in 2009, the crowds were hideous!! I have not seen a line for POTC so long since the early, early '90s! The crowds were bad all over DL, wherever we went. There was not one area that was spared, and the wall of people surrounding IASW Holiday was so impenetrable that all four people in my group looked at it and said, "Eh...we don't need to go on it again, do we?" (And we love that ride!) It was worse than the 2 previous years. I am telling you, the crowds all over DL were really bad. The park reached capacity very early on in the day, so that should tell you they were bad.



Yes, you are right! I hadn't even thought of that international visitor factor. For you and so many others from other countries, you may not get the chance to come back to DLR or the States and so you sort of have to either suffer through the crowds to eat where you want or shop where you want despite feeling like herded cattle, or, as you said, reconsider another trip to do whatever you didn't get to do the first time around, and it may not be that easy to do that.

The time period you say was hideously crowded was a blackout for all but PAP holders, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it wasn't the unwashed local horde that was wholly responsible. I didn't say it was never hideously crowded, I said it isn't ALWAYS hideously crowded. The perception I was talking about is that everyone is whining that it is now crowded 365 days a year, which is patently untrue. Are you likely to ever walk through a mostly empty park, No...but there are days where it is perfectly pleasant and does not come anywhere near reaching capacity.

It just seems a shame to scare away the tourists by saying it is ALWAYS horribly crowded, because it just isn't. If you plan correctly, i.e. avoid major holidays and go when everyone is blacked out, crowds are normally just not that bad.

 

[carebee21]

I was just there on Friday night and saw those crowds you are referring to. And it's nights like these that make it so frustrating to me. I can live with it being crowded and having to wait my turn in line but when I feel like I'm getting screwed and I'm wasting my time because things aren't efficiently being run it irritates me to no end.

DL was well aware of that huge game happening(they had an official product booth in front of DCA) and still planned poorly. They had far too many attractions closed (river, tom sawyer, haunted mansion, fantasmic) and then prior to the fireworks fantasyland, toon town and small world all closed. In my opinion, they really should have pushed to open Captain EO early to help some of the crowds or made CA adventures open later (I believe it was only open until 8) to help the crowds with so many people coming into town and so many attractions closed. They also had autotopia with a 40 minute wait and only 2 tracks going instead of the 4 they're capable of. Indiana Jones had a 45 minute wait and even with fastpasses we waited 25 minutes. The rides had long waits and weren't running at their full capacity so that's frustrating to me. Even the food was the same. The burger place in tommorrowland only had 2 windows out of like 6 open and we waited in a line with 7 other people/families in front of us. That's ridiculous and a waste of time.

Thankfully, Disney isn't a once in a lifetime opportunity for us and we were there for several days and got to see and do everything we wanted. So we dealt with the Fri & Sat crowds by just doing the less crowded things (tiki room, innoventions, the railroad) or things we had fastpasses for. But it's frustrating to now that our experience could have been significantly improved had an event that was well known well in advance, been properly planned for.

And just putting my 2 cents out there, but in my opinion Disney really needs to do away with the payment plans for so-cal residents. I think that will help balance the crowds out again. I understand that in this economy it's hard for families to come up with money to just buy AP's outright and the payment plan helps get more people through the door but it's also leading to overcrowding. Instead of further limiting days and/or times for AP holders, I really think the financing option needs to be done away with.

 

[DDhunter]

I agree DLR does not always plan and anticipate crowds correctly. But, it should have come as no surprise to anyone planning on going to the parks that last weekend would be a nightmare (much like this coming weekend will be). The key is in the planning. All you have to do is look at the Convention Center schedule and find out what else may be going on in the area. That takes 5-10 minutes of research.

Personally, I think the blackout days need a major tweaking and there should be only 1 SoCal level pass. The payment plan, I'm not sure about, but they are pushing it super hard and it is all over the website now whereas it was not before, so I can only assume Disney loves that and it won't be going away any time soon.

 

[Sherry E]

The time period you say was hideously crowded was a blackout for all but PAP holders, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it wasn't the unwashed local horde that was wholly responsible. I didn't say it was never hideously crowded, I said it isn't ALWAYS hideously crowded. The perception I was talking about is that everyone is whining that it is now crowded 365 days a year, which is patently untrue. Are you likely to ever walk through a mostly empty park, No...but there are days where it is perfectly pleasant and does not come anywhere near reaching capacity.

It just seems a shame to scare away the tourists by saying it is ALWAYS horribly crowded, because it just isn't. If you plan correctly, i.e. avoid major holidays and go when everyone is blacked out, crowds are normally just not that bad.

I don't think "whining" is a good word to use here. That is rather inflammatory and bordering on hostile. (And I am a moderator here - I can lock the thread if it gets hostile!) Everyone is entitled to share their experiences, even if they are not the same as others' experiences.

No one said it was "ALWAYS" horribly crowded. And I said I have been going to DL since 1972, so I am well aware that the park is never empty. What I also said was that the day I went in December was worse than the same exact time in the previous two years I went, and it also turned out to be the busiest holiday season in the last decade. And I said that there have been all kinds of reports of increasing crowds over the last year - that is not a perception. That is a fact. No one is scaring any tourists away. We are just sharing information here.

We are all aware of the amazing ways to 'plan correctly' on the DIS - this is a planning board, after all.

 

[blackjackdelta]

Bring on the crowds...I am still going...sticking to my plan...still spending $ while I am there AND renewing my AP! WOO HOO! Oh and I don't live in S. Cal.

Here is what we always say...how cool would DL be for one day with no strollers!?!? HA HA! PLEASE do not take offense to this...just think about it I swear everytime I am there I get a stroller wheel in my heal! !

The BAIN of the parks. Would love it.

Jack

 

[nunzia]

Bring on the crowds...I am still going...sticking to my plan...still spending $ while I am there AND renewing my AP! WOO HOO! Oh and I don't live in S. Cal.

Here is what we always say...how cool would DL be for one day with no strollers!?!? HA HA! PLEASE do not take offense to this...just think about it I swear everytime I am there I get a stroller wheel in my heal! !

shhhhh..my friend and I often comment on how nice it would be to have an adults only day in Disneyland..no-one under 21 allowed