Needs of One vs. Needs of Many

[Eeyores Butterfly]

Nicole: I never meant to imply that you should not have children with disabilities, that we should never consider individual needs. I'm sorry that this offended you, it was not my intent.

I should have been more clear about the statement "what the parents want the parents get". In some (some will say many) areas, if the parents want full inclusion and the school does not think that is appropriate, as long as the parents insist that child will be included because of the fear of a lawsuit. Obviously there are districts out there where the opposite is true, and it's unfortunate that people are having these horrible experiences with their districts.

I'm sure you already know this, but you are entitled to an advocate at any IEP meeting. It is part of due process. There are quite a few organizations that help parents of children with special needs when they belive that those needs are not being met. Our program recommends having parents get an advocate from the get go, somebody who is familiar with the system and can help them articulate their particular child's needs. The one caveat is that many organizations set themselves up as adversaries which can worsen a situation, an advocate that maintains a cordial relationship with the school will be much more effective than one who is automatically adversarial. Of course, if the school district is having lots of compliance issues, the time for being cordial has passed. If you want, PM me and I can link to several advocate organizations. Hopefully you will find the solution you need for your child.

ETA: I once interned at a special ed head start program, and that is the reason I went into teaching. I loved working with those children, to me it was much more rewarding than the general ed head start where I worked one day each week. The children in special ed are some of the most challenging and therefore, most rewarding children to work with. Many are very open and honest, caring. There are no games. I deplore the notion that kids with special needs should be completely self contained or sent to an institution. Inclusion is good, if it is done right. I think that is part of the problem, it is often not done properly.

 

[SereneOne]

Serene One- welcome to my world; we are currently fighting w/ our school district re: placement for DS (6). And to make it more interesting, they have now "lost" his file with all his most recent testing (which I don't have results of yet) and are trying to tell me it's "too late" in the summer to retest! Good times, good times...

The fear of losing funding does not scare them in the least? Good thing I am currently a housewife, I would be on the phone, in their office...they would start crying at the mere mention of my name...

 

[Val]

I show a video, was an HBO special, every year to my intro psych students called "Educating Peter". It is about a boy (I think 3rd or 4th grade) who has down syndrome and some fairly severe cognitive and behavioral issues. He is almost fully mainstreamed with an aide. The film follows Peter and his classmates/teachers/aide over the course of the year- interviews with all. It is an uneasy film. Obviously, there is some loss of academic time and interruptions because of Peter. Several of the boys are injured when Peter strikes or kicks them. At the same time, the children grow immeasurably in their compassion and understanding of Peter, and the teacher is deeply affected for both the better and the worse. The film draws no conclusions, and decisions remain to be made for the next year....the film just leaves it just at that...what kind of education SHOULD Peter get, who will it affect, and why!?!

The discussion following the film is always very passionate.....and these young future psychologists (they are all majors/wannabes) are faced with some ethical dilemmas that they will most likely face throughout their career. I try my best to remain neutral, occassionally play Devil's advocate for both sides, and let them think/argue/emote it out.

This issue is SO complex. As a mom of a child with hearing loss, I know what it is like for DD10 to be on the outs- in her 3rd grade year our parish priest told us she was unwelcome at the parochial school if she was to continue wearing hearing aids- the school (which she had been attending since K- new priest) wasn't "that" kind of school. The kids in her class had begun to call her "deaf girl" and her teachers' answer to my complaints was that "well, she was!"...........we pulled her out (obviously only choice) and put her in the local public school. She earned straight A's ALL year last year, made the safety patrol (they mostly monitor the playground), and has an abundance of friends who do NOT tease her. One of the jobs on the job list each morning (you know, paper passer outer, line leader, etc.) was to get the FM unit and microphone ready for her teacher.....just another job on the list. The teacher-of-the-deaf ran a small "talk about it" group for the 4 girls with hearing loss, and her speech therapist has accomplished miracles. Best decision we ever made....the school was awarded national Blue Ribbon status. As the principal says each morning at announcements....be ready, be responsible, and be respectful because everyday is a great day to be a Fox Creek Timberwolf. Fox Creek Rocks!

All goes to show you that it is often the PEOPLE that make the difference, not the policy. The law didn't change for our DD10, she essentially received the same services- but without the discrimination or attitude. Mr Robinson, Mrs. Henderson, Mrs. Schumaker, and Mrs. Gannaway are saints and miracle workers....not afraid to state their name on a public forum. In my book they should be on billboards around the country as exemplars of what educators SHOULD be!

Good luck and God bless all of you fighting the big fight. May God grant us the ability to make good decisions for ALL our children.

 

[Hasil72]

I believe inclusion can work and does work, its up to the willingness of the teacher to be creative in meeting the needs of the children in her care.

Amen. For example, DS spent 3 years in the self-containted pre-K and Kindergarten and made so much progress that they decided he was ready to be mainstreamed for first grade. They hand selected the teacher with a small class (18), made sure she was aware of everything in the IEP, we even had a meeting with all his teachers so I could make them aware of what to expect from DS, etc. I expressed concern about too many transitions at one time, had the neurologist write a letter requesting that DS remain in the same school or it would hinder his progress. (Self contained pre-K and K are housed in another school within the district.) Request denied. Long story short, with all the changes, DS was overwhelmed and it was a nightmare. The teacher was telling me that he was "making progress" while she was emailing the case mgr. that it "wasn't fair to the rest of her class" that DS was in there and on the occasion that he was out of the room, it was a "welcome respite" for both her and the class. Later, I found out how she modified her lessons...she placed a 7 year old on an independent study program. She would hand him a book and tell him to go read in the library area in the back of the room. She said later, "we all know he absorbs everything he reads." What?

OP-In this situation, it appears the teacher felt that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of one child with or without trying to difuse the situation. However, if you ask her, she will tell you that inclusion was the best option for DS. I guess as long as it wasn't in her class.

Anyway, after a big meeting of "whose fault was this" I refused to pull DS out for the self-contained special ed class. Luckily, the principal and guidance counselor backed me. Second grade was much better. His teacher was wonderful. She even requested to attend several workshops on Autism/Asperger's and behavior modification strategies. DS now has a para and that has made a world of difference. We'll see what third grade brings.

ireland_nicole welcome to my world; we are currently fighting w/ our school district re: placement for DS (6). And to make it more interesting, they have now "lost" his file with all his most recent testing (which I don't have results of yet) and are trying to tell me it's "too late" in the summer to retest! Good times, good times...

Hang in there and fight for what you think is best. Sounds like the school is just trying to see how far you'll push. Losing the file, that's crazy. In my journey, I have found that the group of people I thought were there to give me the information I needed about my child and his disability, have their own agenda. They withhold pieces of hte puzzle here and there and by the time you find out, it's too late. It's like it's almost a crime for them to volunteer information. IMO, it's never too late, I don't care if school has already started. No excuse. Every district is different but I work for a school in the same building as the child study team and they are still scheduling testing through the end of summer. Call and see if your doctors have received copies yet. Never hurts to ask.

The "system" for kids with special needs is far from perfect, but continues to evolve. One thing I'm working on changing is access to a childs IEP. As a para, I'm not given a copy of the IEP, nor an I in attendance of the yearly review. I think this is crazy! My supervisor (the sp. ed. teacher), works with these kids a fraction of the time that I spend with them (because she is so loaded down), and she gets the information.
I could service these kids so much better if I could have their IEP's.

-J'aime Paris
I agree. Fortunate for us, they broke the rules and included DS's para in a meeting leading up to his annual review to get her opinion and observations. Makes sense to me.

I wish I had more to share. Once school starts, I might. DS's district (not the one I work for) will be implementing a new state mandated ICS program with at least 2 ICS classes on each grade level. One FT mainstream teacher and a special ed "co-teacher" will come in for math, reading and writing. No more resource room and fewer self contained classes.


Good luck to everyone!

 

[ireland_nicole]

For anyone interested in the continuing saga of placement and file loss of DS: here's chapter 306:always send a plumber to do a carpenter's job...

So I get a phone call today from the diagnostician from a local high school and she informs me that she is doing my sons testing - Excuse me? I asked her how often she evaluates an early elementary child and she says, "I have all I need right here- and I know how to administer testing. " Then she tells us to allow 3-4 hours for the "testing" Hello! This kid is six with developmental delay and congenital brain malformation - I can't get him to sit still for 5 minutes (nor can any of his teachers) and you think you can test him for 3 hours? Seriously, these people have got to get a grip on reality... on the plus side, I signed up today for a Wright's law bootcamp; they are so not gonna know what him 'em...

 

[bookwormde]

Ireland Nicole

I took Peter Wright’s seminar on IDEA and NCLB it was excellent. His classed are also a great place to network; a lot of the most progressive school people attend along with a fair number of attorneys and state officials. He has a great approach, avoiding confrontation and process but not being afraid of it, He is also very entertaining with lots of first hand anecdotes.

bookwormde

 

[BeckyScott]

Wow, this is a hoppin' thread!

I am trying to piece together all the info from the last 3 pages and form my thoughts.

I agree that the IEP thing is in need of an overhaul. But from a historical perspective, it's really a pretty new concept. The laws are so hard to understand that both the schools and the parents mis-interpret. The parents often feel that they must go along with the school, because they don't understand IDEA well enough and think the school knows better. Plus the way it seems to work right now, is that if a parent doesn't agree with an IEP, they're probably going to need a lawyer, a big mess is coming, living in fear of the wrath of the school upon your helpless kid... which I know isn't exactly true, but you all know that's the way it works.

Hmmm.

DS was in a reverse-mainstream preschool. It was about half special needs and half typical. In our town, that preschool is the "good" preschool. The typical students were usually kids of school district employees, they kinda fought over who would get to go there. So the preschool must have been doing something right. Those parents weren't fighting to get their typical kids in the preschool because it taught tolerance, they fought to get their typical kids in there because it's hands-down the best preschool in town. So at the preschool level, it's certainly possible to have a classroom with close to half the students IEP'ed, and still have the typical kids learn a whole lot.

But. Okay, DS is HFA. Which means that while he is IEP'ed and has some deficits, those deficits are primarily in social skills. His academics are not an issue. He is reading and spelling above grade level, and got a science certificate at the end of last school year. "Typical" autism kid, if there is such a thing. The school district does have a small gifted program, and I have asked about it before, only to be poo-poo'ed. The requirements are set up in such a way that it is near impossible for a special needs kid to get in. Because they use standardized testing. And you know that a normal IQ test is not accurate for a kid w/ autism. We've done his IQ before, and you can guess the results. His non-verbal is thru the roof, but his verbal is pretty stinky. Therefore, he does not qualify as "gifted", which is a total crock. I have asked before about the mixed-age classroom (where I am thinking at least he would be exposed to higher grade-level materials), but there is only one in the whole district and it has a waiting list.

What I think, is that the parents right now, and I speak mostly as an autism parent, are still paving the way. We owe a whole lot to those parents who fought in the 70's and 80's for inclusion, that fought a hard hard battle, and we owe them big time. But it is also up to us to pick up the torch and keep going.

There isn't an easy answer.

Someone pointed out earlier that schools now are responsible to teach much more than they used to, which I think is true, I think that society is bailing out on parenting and expecting schools to do the work. There are some kids that really do need that to be successful-- you know the kids-- parents dump them off at school, where the school is expected to even feed them breakfast-- then the kid goes off to an after-school program or day care, and the parent shows up at 7 or 8 that night, for a total of about an hour a day where the parent is physically with the child, and that's if the child doesn't participate in sports or clubs. No flames, please, I know parents have to work and they're doing the best they can. But that's not true all of the time, and I bet any one of us can come up with a handful of kids that our kids go to school with, who have "dump and run" parents. It's not just the poor kids, either, I know parents who "dump and run" taekwondo and dance and swimming lessons, which is some expensive day care! When we took taekwondo, their big sales pitch was that they taught kids more than tkd, they taught Respect and Honor and Honesty... but I don't think the ATA instructor is supposed to be the primary provider of those concepts...

If I may, I'd try likening it to Equal Rights for women. (go with me here) Women were in very traditional roles. Then they stood up and said "no more" and fought and fought a good fight. And the laws were passed, but everyone was scared of the laws, because they were open to interpretation and everyone interpreted them differently and someone somewhere was always afraid there was a lawsuit coming. And so the pendulum swung the other way for a while. And suddenly being a SAHM was an awful thing and companies were forced to hire women, occasionally in jobs that were totally not appropriate, because they were scared of the backlash. And it took another generation to take it to the next level, to say "the whole point of it was to give us a choice, and my choice is to be a SAHM" and for that to be just as valid as a working mom. And to fess up to the reality that simply put, there are some jobs that are more appropriate for men than women. Period. And that's okay.

In other words, the pendulum swung one direction, but when it swung back, it had to go a little extreme the other way. And now we all try to find the medium. I think we're in the same spot with Sp Ed. When our son was diagnosed, my MIL thought we would have to "send him away". That's what they did with those kids in her time. She was shocked that he'd be in a regular school. She's happy about it, but shocked. We've certainly made huge progress in her lifetime. But now we have to find where the pendulum is going to rest, and I suspect it will be somewhere in the middle, I'm just not sure where. My son is smart, but he can't be just thrown in a typical classroom with no support. His classmates recognize his value and need to understand that there are lots of different types of kids in the universe.

Will he be able to completely function in a typical world as an adult? I'm not sure yet. He will be able to contribute, but it's likely he will need some help with some things. I wouldn't want him to be hired for a job just to fill a quota, but I wouldn't want someone to overlook his gifts and just see the label.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

I'm interested in moving beyond just the school issue of this, it has sort of turned into an IEP thread.

I know there have been many discussions on this and other boards about issues like service dogs. What do you do when a person has a service dog in an enclosed area (restaurant, airplane, etc.) but another person has severe allergies to that dog?

I know that if I were the person with the SD I would want my SD to be allowed, but if I were the other person I would want the SD removed. I laways hate those kinds of things because not matter what you do, one person gets a bad outcome. This is a situation when the two different needs are in direct conflict. It's certainly not the only time this happens, but it's the only one I can think of for now.

 

[ireland_nicole]

Ireland Nicole

I took Peter Wright’s seminar on IDEA and NCLB it was excellent. His classed are also a great place to network; a lot of the most progressive school people attend along with a fair number of attorneys and state officials. He has a great approach, avoiding confrontation and process but not being afraid of it, He is also very entertaining with lots of first hand anecdotes.

bookwormde

Thanks for this info! I'm about to undergo two days and nights learning as much as they can cram into my poor little head- I can't wait! Everything I've learned up until now has been more piecemeal and trial and error.

Wow, this is a hoppin' thread!

I am trying to piece together all the info from the last 3 pages and form my thoughts.

I agree that the IEP thing is in need of an overhaul. But from a historical perspective, it's really a pretty new concept. The laws are so hard to understand that both the schools and the parents mis-interpret. The parents often feel that they must go along with the school, because they don't understand IDEA well enough and think the school knows better. Plus the way it seems to work right now, is that if a parent doesn't agree with an IEP, they're probably going to need a lawyer, a big mess is coming, living in fear of the wrath of the school upon your helpless kid... which I know isn't exactly true, but you all know that's the way it works.

Hmmm.

DS was in a reverse-mainstream preschool. It was about half special needs and half typical. In our town, that preschool is the "good" preschool. The typical students were usually kids of school district employees, they kinda fought over who would get to go there. So the preschool must have been doing something right. Those parents weren't fighting to get their typical kids in the preschool because it taught tolerance, they fought to get their typical kids in there because it's hands-down the best preschool in town. So at the preschool level, it's certainly possible to have a classroom with close to half the students IEP'ed, and still have the typical kids learn a whole lot.

But. Okay, DS is HFA. Which means that while he is IEP'ed and has some deficits, those deficits are primarily in social skills. His academics are not an issue. He is reading and spelling above grade level, and got a science certificate at the end of last school year. "Typical" autism kid, if there is such a thing. The school district does have a small gifted program, and I have asked about it before, only to be poo-poo'ed. The requirements are set up in such a way that it is near impossible for a special needs kid to get in. Because they use standardized testing. And you know that a normal IQ test is not accurate for a kid w/ autism. We've done his IQ before, and you can guess the results. His non-verbal is thru the roof, but his verbal is pretty stinky. Therefore, he does not qualify as "gifted", which is a total crock. I have asked before about the mixed-age classroom (where I am thinking at least he would be exposed to higher grade-level materials), but there is only one in the whole district and it has a waiting list.

What I think, is that the parents right now, and I speak mostly as an autism parent, are still paving the way. We owe a whole lot to those parents who fought in the 70's and 80's for inclusion, that fought a hard hard battle, and we owe them big time. But it is also up to us to pick up the torch and keep going.

There isn't an easy answer.

Someone pointed out earlier that schools now are responsible to teach much more than they used to, which I think is true, I think that society is bailing out on parenting and expecting schools to do the work. There are some kids that really do need that to be successful-- you know the kids-- parents dump them off at school, where the school is expected to even feed them breakfast-- then the kid goes off to an after-school program or day care, and the parent shows up at 7 or 8 that night, for a total of about an hour a day where the parent is physically with the child, and that's if the child doesn't participate in sports or clubs. No flames, please, I know parents have to work and they're doing the best they can. But that's not true all of the time, and I bet any one of us can come up with a handful of kids that our kids go to school with, who have "dump and run" parents. It's not just the poor kids, either, I know parents who "dump and run" taekwondo and dance and swimming lessons, which is some expensive day care! When we took taekwondo, their big sales pitch was that they taught kids more than tkd, they taught Respect and Honor and Honesty... but I don't think the ATA instructor is supposed to be the primary provider of those concepts...

If I may, I'd try likening it to Equal Rights for women. (go with me here) Women were in very traditional roles. Then they stood up and said "no more" and fought and fought a good fight. And the laws were passed, but everyone was scared of the laws, because they were open to interpretation and everyone interpreted them differently and someone somewhere was always afraid there was a lawsuit coming. And so the pendulum swung the other way for a while. And suddenly being a SAHM was an awful thing and companies were forced to hire women, occasionally in jobs that were totally not appropriate, because they were scared of the backlash. And it took another generation to take it to the next level, to say "the whole point of it was to give us a choice, and my choice is to be a SAHM" and for that to be just as valid as a working mom. And to fess up to the reality that simply put, there are some jobs that are more appropriate for men than women. Period. And that's okay.

In other words, the pendulum swung one direction, but when it swung back, it had to go a little extreme the other way. And now we all try to find the medium. I think we're in the same spot with Sp Ed. When our son was diagnosed, my MIL thought we would have to "send him away". That's what they did with those kids in her time. She was shocked that he'd be in a regular school. She's happy about it, but shocked. We've certainly made huge progress in her lifetime. But now we have to find where the pendulum is going to rest, and I suspect it will be somewhere in the middle, I'm just not sure where. My son is smart, but he can't be just thrown in a typical classroom with no support. His classmates recognize his value and need to understand that there are lots of different types of kids in the universe.

Will he be able to completely function in a typical world as an adult? I'm not sure yet. He will be able to contribute, but it's likely he will need some help with some things. I wouldn't want him to be hired for a job just to fill a quota, but I wouldn't want someone to overlook his gifts and just see the label.

You have an interesting way of looking at things (I really do mean that in a good way) and it will be interesting to be part of this generation of moms who carry the torch. It's funny, I do feel a sense of responsibility in every situation where I educate or advocate-not just for my kids, but for those who will come after

I'm interested in moving beyond just the school issue of this, it has sort of turned into an IEP thread.

I know there have been many discussions on this and other boards about issues like service dogs. What do you do when a person has a service dog in an enclosed area (restaurant, airplane, etc.) but another person has severe allergies to that dog?

I know that if I were the person with the SD I would want my SD to be allowed, but if I were the other person I would want the SD removed. I laways hate those kinds of things because not matter what you do, one person gets a bad outcome. This is a situation when the two different needs are in direct conflict. It's certainly not the only time this happens, but it's the only one I can think of for now.

1. Read previous posts, esp. Becky Scott's. It is not "merely" an IEP post although that would be a reasonable route to take considering your original post.

2. RE: SD's. They are required to perform a service for an individual with a disability; i.e. provide visual support, warn of upcoming seizure activity, etc. While I am no SD expert, it seems to me that a SD is, in a way, an extention of the individual, and aside from the fact that the team is protected (Thank God) by ADA, it is unthinkeable to imagine that you or anyone else would feel it appropriate to bar them from public places simply because of inconvenience.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

Nicole: I didn't meant to imply that it was merely an IEP thread, that is just one component of a larger issue.

As far as the SD, I admit that I will always side with the person with the SD, I don't think that we should bar them for "inconvenience", but at the same time, there are people who can are very allergic. I have allergic asthma and one of my major triggers is cigarette smoke. I refused to go to bars with my friends because none of the bars were non-smoking. One of my favorite restaurants in town I could no longer frequent because there were literally no non-smoking tables. My town passed a smoking ban last year, and now I go to that restaurant all the time.

Since I knew which places had good non-smoking sections and which didn't, I was able to avoid places that could cause a severe reaction. If I was somebody who was triggered by a dog however and an SD came in... I understand their concern. I will still side with the SD, but I do think their concern is valid, and this is one of those where it becomes hard to look at the needs of one person vs. the needs of another. The person with the SD needs the SD to function, the person with the severe allergy needs a dog-free space to be safe. That's a tough call and one of the reasons that SDs are a controversial topic at times. Again, I will side with the SD, but I also cannot dismiss the concerns of the allergic individual.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

This is OT, but several on here have mentioned problems with their schools and the IEP. Hopefully your school provided you with a sheet that is about the Procedural Safeguards, that is required by law. It outlines what your rights are when there is a dispute.

There is a thing called Due Process, it is a formal way of resolving disputes between schools and parents. It typically involves a hearing, so it should only be used after other lines of communication have failed. If you feel that the school is violating the law (you did not get the Procedural Safeguards, they are not listening to your input, not following through with the IEP, etc.), then it is time to start Due Process.

Wrights Law is a wonderful advocacy website that has answers to just about any question about special education, IEPs, etc. Below is the link to their page on Due Process. It outlines your rights and how to go about the different steps. It has good advice. I hope this helps!

http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/dp.index.htm

 

[BeckyScott]

I'm in a couple of Yahoo groups that deal with food allergies. Fortunately, none of DS's are to the point of being anaphalactic (sp? it's too early in the morning). And there have been discussions here about peanut-free airplanes. Most of the time it does seem like a no-win situation.

(although I don't get why planes still serve peanuts, since that's a very very common allergy)

I think the pendulum right now has swung in favor of the SD. Because here are the possibilities-- Dog-allergy person has to leave the restaurant, is pissed off, tells all his friends not to go there, and spends his life giving SD's the "evil eye". Or SD person has to leave the dog outside, falls or has a seizure, sues the restaurant, and ends up owning it. Both of which are legit things to do in the situation. If it was your restaurant, which option would you pick? Neither is good, but one is worse.

If I were deciding where the pendulum landed and I might change my mind in a few years.... there would be options for both and the person could just opt for either, depending. Like here, on Saturday mornings, the public pool does Adaptive Swimming. The bowling alley also has one time that they do Adaptive Bowling. Fortunately, there is a pretty large community of disabled adults here, many group homes, and they have paved the way, although the activities are not necessary kid-friendly. But anyway. We have a choice. We can go to Adaptive Swimming, be with a variety of disabled people, in a low-key setting. Or we can go to the pool during regular hours, and take what's there- crowds and teenage rudeness and stares. We can do either, it's up to us to decide. You could look at it as the pool promoting seperation of disabled and non-disabled or not wanting the disabled people there during regular hours. (although they don't say that) Or you could look at it that at least they thought about people with disabilities. And some days the kids might just want to go to the pool and I don't care, and then Saturday morning I might just be happy to go be with people where I don't have to explain.

Some days you just don't want to explain, and those are the days it works best (for me) to find somewhere that is geared toward disabilities in the first place. When we went to Adaptive Bowling, nobody batted an eye. First off, of course, the bowling alley can't ask what's up with DS because that would be illegal, but secondly the truth is that a "normal" person isn't going to show up at Adaptive Bowling. The disabled community, as a whole, you get some of the most accepting and supportive people. It's a really amazing group, one I never thought I would get to know, but it's been an honor. People with disabilities don't stare at DS. They take him as he is and don't make assumptions. And I've grown too. "Back in the day" when I was in school, all the SpEd kids were stuck out in a trailer in back, with very limited mainstreaming, so I had very limited exposure. And then I went into a career field where it just wasn't common to find people with disabilities. And then suddenly I got dropped right into the middle of it.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

Great post Becky! I love your attitude toward the different programs, and I think it is so cool that they these things available in your community.

Thank you for bringing up the peanut example. I remember the year after I left my elementary school banned PB&J, no student could bring anything with peanuts because a student was allergic. I, in all my 6th grade wisdom, thought it was a bonehead thing to do. PB&J was a staple of my lunches back then. Then my mother, who works in the lab of a hospital, explained to me about the seriousness of the allergy and I began to understand. I do wish there was a better way than banning all peanut products for the several hundred kids in the school just to accommodate one, but until that way is found it's better to be safe than sorry.

This is an issue my mom has to deal with a lot working in a hospital. They had a teenager commit suicide by eating a peanut, and it was very tough on all the staff.

 

[BeckyScott]

EB, I gotta tell you...

When we flew to Disney (it was a SouthWest flight, although I don't know that it makes any difference) they served peanuts and Cheez-Its. Neither of which DS can eat, but I was prepared and brought him his own snack.

I hadn't thought too much about peanut allergies until hanging at the boards here, seeing threads sometimes about it.

When they served the snack, about 30 seconds later the entire airplane reeked of peanut. I probably never would have noticed before, just that I was more aware this time. That airplane stunk, like you had unscrewed a jar of peanut butter and stuck your nose right in it. And it occurred to me that we were very lucky, in that while DS is allergic to most nuts, it's not a life-threatening allergy and he can be around it so long as he doesn't eat it.

One thing I did want to ask about/ get feedback/ it is IEP-oriented but I think it could apply to other situations.

DS gets pulled out of class for Speech, Language, OT, PT... not huge amounts of time, but pulled out nonetheless. Now, depending on which year of school it was, the classroom schedule, etc, obviously he is missing something when he gets pulled out for therapy. I don't know if there's a way to work around that, how as a parent you help with that decision, how it is decided what the child misses in order to be pulled out for therapy, how you compensate for the time lost. It's a bit unfair. Once he hits middle school there are blocks of time put in for "electives" and I suspect that's when they'll want to do his therapy-- but then is it fair that he doesn't get to do electives? I have a dear friend whose son has some ED problems and they wanted him to take Social Skills in middle school, but that class was only offered one period, and the same period as Choir. Which the boy really wanted to do, loves music, and because he dislikes school so much he really needed the positive reinforcement of taking a class he enjoys.

So where does the pendulum swing on that? If my son is getting pulled out of social studies two days a week so he can do PT, is that good? Or how else do you handle it? If the school is doing therapy, he will be missing something in the classroom. What if, by some fluke, a couple of years went by where he was pulled out of the same class?

 

[Schmeck]

That's another difficult balancing act - we have a 45 minute morning 'free' period for students who need extra time with a teacher, make-up work, band, and chorus. That would be a great time to schedule OT, PT, ST, etc. as it would not involve missing a core academic class. If the child was in band or chorus, then it wouldn't work though.

I guess that there comes a time when you realize that you can't have it/do it all though - but then no one can. My DD is 17, a senior in high school, and because of block scheduling she cannot get all of her science classes scheduled in that she wants to take, along with the classes she needs to take. So she's going to take a class on Sundays, a 45 minute drive from home, which means she has to give up some other stuff that she did on Sundays now too. She had to decide what was more important for her.

I guess another alternative would be to have an extended day for students that needed PT, OT, etc. But then that means a lot more $$$, as transportation becomes an issue, as does paying staff to stay later (although you could just shift the hours for the staff?) and as the child got older, there could be some conflict with after school activities.

One thing I have noticed is that OT and PT time seems to decrease as a child gets older - or if it doesn't, then the child isn't in as many academic classes. We have a scheduled learning center period available for students with IEPs, and that is a great time to do therapy sessions.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

The pull out part is always very difficult. At least on the lower level when they have the same teacher, a good teacher will help them make up what they have missed. It is such a valuable service for kids, but it is a difficult balancing act. It's sort of a darned if you do, darned if you don't situation unfortunately. That becomes true of most kids however once they get to middle school and high school with scheduling electives. If you do one thing you automatically can't do another.

 

[belle&beast]

EB, I gotta tell you...



DS gets pulled out of class for Speech, Language, OT, PT... not huge amounts of time, but pulled out nonetheless. Now, depending on which year of school it was, the classroom schedule, etc, obviously he is missing something when he gets pulled out for therapy. I don't know if there's a way to work around that, how as a parent you help with that decision, how it is decided what the child misses in order to be pulled out for therapy, how you compensate for the time lost. It's a bit unfair. Once he hits middle school there are blocks of time put in for "electives" and I suspect that's when they'll want to do his therapy-- but then is it fair that he doesn't get to do electives? I have a dear friend whose son has some ED problems and they wanted him to take Social Skills in middle school, but that class was only offered one period, and the same period as Choir. Which the boy really wanted to do, loves music, and because he dislikes school so much he really needed the positive reinforcement of taking a class he enjoys.

So where does the pendulum swing on that? If my son is getting pulled out of social studies two days a week so he can do PT, is that good? Or how else do you handle it? If the school is doing therapy, he will be missing something in the classroom. What if, by some fluke, a couple of years went by where he was pulled out of the same class?

I can provide some insight about this at least in my experience in the elementary schools. We were not allowed to pull from "specials" because they were the classes that many of my kids excelled in and enjoyed. Of course it is difficult to pull them from academics as well, but in my case I worked with the resource teachers and para-professionals to find a time that would be best for the child and they would be sure to teach anything that was missed. I have to say, my general ed teachers were also excellent about teaching anything they missed. So it was definitely a team approach and all parts worked together to assist each other to be sure our kids were receiving the therapy they needed and were not missing important academic instruction.

I also made it a point to visit the classroom if I could target the goals within that setting. This is especially beneficial for kids who have goals for social skills and peer interaction. It is easier in the lower grades, but I also visited PE and music classes in the higher grades because they had more opportunity for social interaction.

When you determine resource and therapy time during the IEP meeting, you also talk about how the service will be provided. This is your time to discuss the time spent out of the classroom.

 

[Schmeck]

I have to say, my general ed teachers were also excellent about teaching anything they missed. So it was definitely a team approach and all parts worked together to assist each other to be sure our kids were receiving the therapy they needed and were not missing important academic instruction.

Did the teachers take time out from the classroom to teach the student pulled out? That would also be a tricky balancing act, as that would mean that the other students were not getting instruction for a period of time, or were getting it a second time, if done with the whole group. While that would benefit other students that needed a second time of instruction on one topic, wouldn't that be wasted time for students that got it the first time around? If an elementary teacher had 3 students that got pulled out separately for a half hour each day, would this mean that she would spend from a half hour to an hour and a half each day catching up with just those 3 students? How could she meet the needs of the other students in the class?

 

[belle&beast]

Did the teachers take time out from the classroom to teach the student pulled out? That would also be a tricky balancing act, as that would mean that the other students were not getting instruction for a period of time, or were getting it a second time, if done with the whole group. While that would benefit other students that needed a second time of instruction on one topic, wouldn't that be wasted time for students that got it the first time around? If an elementary teacher had 3 students that got pulled out separately for a half hour each day, would this mean that she would spend from a half hour to an hour and a half each day catching up with just those 3 students? How could she meet the needs of the other students in the class?

I think my best response is that the teachers and staff all took a team approach. Obviously each gen.ed teacher could not take 30 minutes to make up for time missed per student in the class, there is not enough time in the day. But they did make sure the resource teacher, paraprofessional or classroom aide knew what was missed and helped if there was not time to teach the lesson missed. When you get into the upper grades, kids spend a lot of time working independently and that is the time someone could use to make up a missed lesson.

I honestly do not believe that other children's needs are not being met by a teacher assisting another student who has missed a small portion of the day.

 

[BeckyScott]

I'm not sure at what times they pulled DS out for his therapies.

I do know that the classroom he was in this past year, after you got done adding together the 3 kids that shared the para (who I will assume for now received some sort of in-school therapy), the kids that just got speech (which seems to be pretty common), the Title 1 kids, and the ESL kids, probably half the class was leaving the room at some point. That was a point they'd made during the IEP meeting, that DS wouldn't stand out as "different" because there are kids going in and out of the room all the time. I have much respect for the teacher, dealing with that on a daily basis.

In 1st grade, he was in Adaptive PE. The way that class was scheduled, he had it every day. But regular PE is every fourth day (?) and he still went to that. I couldn't figure out why he was still going to regular PE if he had adaptive, he was getting plenty of PE-- and it seemed like the regular PE class would be an ideal time to pull him out for something else. And then he had PT once a week on top of that, which I know he's not getting interaction with other kids but the PT works DS's butt off. Poor kid! When I first brought up Adaptive PE, I thought it was a substitute for regular, not in addition.

If I had my way at this point he'd be taken out of some of the electives, and what belle mentioned is similar to the policy here, they don't pull out during specials, unless they are trying to make up time from a field trip or a one-time scheduling problem. Since he already gets PT, I wouldn't mind him getting pulled out during PE. And there is one Counselor Day in the mix that frankly I'm not sure what's going on. ??? Now, I would definately not pull him out of Music or Art, because in general I am a big supporter of the arts and believe the schools don't do it enough.

I guess it's true that at some point, the child has to make a choice about what classes to take. But I am worried that at this level, he's missing something important in the room while he goes off to therapy. It's not like there are a lot of electives at an elementary school, it's really only that 45 minutes a day when they do specials. I suspect that the para is also helping to make up for anything he's missed, however, he's been sharing a para, so she's trying to cover several bases.

Since he is switching schools this next year, I'll set up an appointment early on and bring this up. I need to meet everyone anyway. The district is also getting a new SpEd coordinator. I'll ask about it at open house night.