Need Conservative Judges

[corndog]

I thought you check any constitutional rights at the door when you enter the military? Does that not apply to the academies?

 

[Master Mason]

Is it a VOLUNTARY moment of silence, or is it required moment of silence?

Apparently I was incorrect in that it is a public prayer rather than a moment of silence.

But to go off on a little tangent, even if it was a required moment of silence, that does not mean that it is required that one use that moment to pray, you could use it to think about your homework or your girlfriend or anything else.

 

[Master Mason]

I thought you check any constitutional rights at the door when you enter the military? Does that not apply to the academies?

I don't think that is completely true, you subject yourself the the Uniform Code and in some cases that is not as free as the constitution would allow, but the constitution still applies in those things not covered under the Uniform Code.

 

[Anewman]

But to go off on a little tangent, even if it was a required moment of silence, that does not mean that it is required that one use that moment to pray, you could use it to think about your homework or your girlfriend or anything else.

And if there was not required moment, those that wish to pray on their own before eating, could.

 

[Master Mason]

And if there was not required moment, those that wish to pray on their own before eating, could.

True, but as I said in my first post, a large part of military training is doing things as a group. Stand together, sit together, walk together, eat together. etc.

 

[tedhowe]

If it was a moment of silence, I would tell the ACLU to go pound sand.

Since it appears to be a spoken prayer, I would say that it is borderline as to whether it should be allowed or not, IMO.

Spoken by a fiscally conservative, socially moderate to liberal Christian, here.

 

[Anewman]

True, but as I said in my first post, a large part of military training is doing things as a group. Stand together, sit together, walk together, eat together. etc.

And dont forget pray together.

 

[allison443]

Apparently I was incorrect in that it is a public prayer rather than a moment of silence.

But to go off on a little tangent, even if it was a required moment of silence, that does not mean that it is required that one use that moment to pray, you could use it to think about your homework or your girlfriend or anything else.

I was kind of surprised myself to read that it is an actual prayer rather than a moment of silence. I think one of the midshipmen who objected was agnostic (which is their right) and that's why they didn't like the public prayer being said by one of the chaplains of those three religions.

 

[Anewman]

If it was a moment of silence, I would tell the ACLU to go pound sand.

Since it appears to be a spoken prayer, I would say that it is borderline as to whether it should be allowed or not, IMO.

Spoken by a fiscally conservative, socially moderate to liberal Christian, here.

If it was a Muslim Prayer that was spoken, would it still be borderline?

 

[bicker]

The reality is that social justice in this country has been dangerously close to regressive, and we need less socially conservative judges. We need a government that who will stop spending so much money, and that will foster a more inclusive, rather than divisive, society.

 

[CPT Tripss]

As I understand it, it is voluntary, it is not a public prayer, but rather a moment of silence to be used for prayer if so desired. Anyone not wishing to participate is required to sit in silence until the time is up before they are allowed to eat.
Being a military school, and being that a large part of military training is doing things at the proper time and as a unit, I am unclear why this is a problem. If you don't wish to pray, don't, just sit there while the others do and then eat together as a unit.

For those that are against this, how do you then justify the opening prayers at congress, or the opening prayers at the conventions, those were public prayers that everyone is forced to listen to by governement entities?

OK so if you don't want to participate in a moment of silence, you must be silent.
That makes a boatload of sense.

 

[tedhowe]

If it was a Muslim Prayer that was spoken, would it still be borderline?

Hmm... good question and I had to stop and think for a moment.

Personally, I have no problem whether it is Muslim prayer, Christian, Wiccan, Hindu, etc.... it makes no difference to me and I actually enjoy hearing how others communicate with their chosen deity.

But I take your point all the same.

My reason for saying it is borderline is because I think people are too sensitive about issues like this today.

I'm literally a card-carrying member of the ACLU (driven to that seven years ago by John Aschcroft's "phantoms of lost liberty" line), but I do sometimes wonder about some of the cases the ACLU takes up.

I'm very strongly in support of cases that limit this type of thing in primary or secondary education settings... during the important formative years of young people's lives, when things like religous views are learned like any other area of knowledge I don't believe people's children should be exposed to things that are in conflict with their own beliefs - so keep it all out of the public schools.

But at the level of a military academy (collegiate level) I think there is more of a balance to be considered in a case.

Constitutional rights are designed to protect the minority from the tyrrany of the majority, but I think sometimes we run a very real risk of having a "tyrrany of the minority".

On further thought, though I believe the principal is the same at the academy level... so I don't have a significant problem with the case as I understand it. I doubt I would feel a personal affront by the prayer, but I can understand why others would.

 

[bicker]

"Tyranny of the minority" are situations like Apartheid in South Africa, where the majority isn't allowed to do some of the things that the minority is allowed to do. The issues we're discussing are nothing like that. Rather, they are cases where neither the majority nor the minority are allowed to do something.

 

[jack hannah bananah]

OP-this was news in June, 2008. Wondering what brings it up now-have there been some developments lately? I haven't seen anything lately-what is the current situation on it?
Also, whose description of the prayer are you quoting in your post?
Tell the truth, did you receive this in a forwarded email?

Sorry to confuse you. It just came up now because I received some information from a legal group I belong to. Nothing official has changed, although work continues to be done on this.
The quote was from a member of the group I belong to.
I like to describe it as the opposite of the ACLU.

I think was amazes me the most is the people who so forcefully discuss inclusion are the same people who are so adamantly against Christian prayer anywhere. I don't understand why separation of church and state means Christians are no longer allowed to pray openly. I don't have a problem with other religions praying openly. Why do they have a problem with mine?

I know this will get me flamed by this group, but why are we so quick to throw traditions away. Regardless of what you may have been taught - this country was founded on Christian principles. Our very wise founding fathers were men of faith. I believe the success of this country is largely due to this.

 

[bicker]

Regardless of what you may have been taught - this country was founded on Christian principles.

Regardless of what you may have been taught, that is not the case. Our country was founded on principles specifically focused on precluding this country from associating itself with any specific religious principles.

Our very wise founding fathers were men of faith.

The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine. - George Washington

The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and... foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity. - John Adams

I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature. The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his Father, in the womb of a virgin will be classified with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. - Thomas Jefferson

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and severity in the laity; in both superstition, bigotry, and persecution. - James Madison

 

[Master Mason]

Regardless of what you may have been taught, that is not the case. Our country was founded on principles specifically focused on precluding this country from associating itself with any specific religious principles.


The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine. - George Washington

The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and... foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity. - John Adams

I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature. The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his Father, in the womb of a virgin will be classified with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. - Thomas Jefferson

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and severity in the laity; in both superstition, bigotry, and persecution. - James Madison

I can play the quote game as well

Enter into a combination and confederation together to maintian and perseve the liberty and purity of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Which we now profess... which according to the truth of the said Gospel we now practice among us Fundimental Orders 1639 (first constitution writen in the US in CT)

to make habitation... and to deduce a colony of sundry of our people into that part of America commonly called Virginia... in propogating of Christian Religion to such people as still live in darkness Charter of the Virginia Company 1606

We are not to attribute this [First Amendment] prohibition of a national religious establishement to an indifference to religion in general, and especially to Christianity (which none could hold in more reverence than the framers of the Constitution)... Probably at the time of the adoption of the Constitution and of the Amendment now under consideration, the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was that Christianity aught to recieve encouragement form the State. Justice Joseph Story appointed to the Supreme Court by Madison

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity... Now I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God John Adams

It is never to be supposed that the people of America will trust their dearest rights to persons who have no religion at all, or a religion materially different from their own Justice James Iredell appointed to the Supreme Court by Washington

Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation deert the oaths? George Washington Farewell Address

Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good governement and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged Northwest Ordinance passed by the first congress and signed into law before passage of the Bill of Rights.

And can the liberties of a nation be tought ssecure if we have lost the only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath Thomas Jefferson

The power to prescribe any religious exercise must rest with the States Thomas Jefferson

The people of the North American union, and of its constituent States, were associated bodies of civilized men and Christians in a state of nature, but not of anarchy. the were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledged as the rules of thier conduct. John Quincy Adams

 

[bicker]

I can play the quote game as well

Let me remind you what we're talking about:

this country was founded on Christian principles

Fundimental Orders 1639 ...
Charter of the Virginia Company 1606 ...
Justice Joseph Story ...
Justice James Iredell...
John Quincy Adams...

Not the "founding fathers". There were Christians in America, both before and after the establishment of the nation. Story even referred to "the framers of the Constitution" in the third person, clearly recognizing that he wasn't one of them.

John Adams

Contradicting his other quote.

It is never to be supposed that the people of America will trust their dearest rights to persons who have no religion at all, or a religion materially different from their own appointed to the Supreme Court by Washington

Nothing about Christianity.

Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation deert the oaths? George Washington Farewell Address

Nothing about Christianity.

Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good governement and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged Northwest Ordinance passed by the first congress and signed into law before passage of the Bill of Rights.

Nothing about Christianity.

And can the liberties of a nation be tought ssecure if we have lost the only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath Thomas Jefferson

Nothing about Christianity.

The power to prescribe any religious exercise must rest with the States Thomas Jefferson

Nothing about Christianity.

However, in the end, this is all that matters:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...."

 

[Sanchez]

I think was amazes me the most is the people who so forcefully discuss inclusion are the same people who are so adamantly against Christian prayer anywhere. I don't understand why separation of church and state means Christians are no longer allowed to pray openly. I don't have a problem with other religions praying openly. Why do they have a problem with mine?.

I understand your argument, but I do not think anyone (ACLU included) is opposed to "Christian prayer anywhere." You can pray any time you wish. Does it need to be organized and government sanctioned? If a child wants to pray before a test in school they have every right to do so. Do they need an organized moment of silence?

 

[Anewman]

I understand your argument, but I do not think anyone (ACLU included) is opposed to "Christian prayer anywhere." You can pray any time you wish. Does it need to be organized and government sanctioned? If a child wants to pray before a test in school they have every right to do so. Do they need an organized moment of silence?

great post

 

[Master Mason]

Let me remind you what we're talking about:

Not the "founding fathers". There were Christians in America, both before and after the establishment of the nation. Story even referred to "the framers of the Constitution" in the third person, clearly recognizing that he wasn't one of them.

Contradicting his other quote.

Nothing about Christianity.

Nothing about Christianity.

Nothing about Christianity.

Nothing about Christianity.

Nothing about Christianity.

However, in the end, this is all that matters:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...."

As for Story, he was appointed to the Supreme Court by Madison and is the son of a paticipant in the Boston Tea Party and founded the Harvard Law School, so perhaps he might have known a few things about what the people in the room thought. Quincy Adams being the Son of John would surely have some ideas about what the framers might have been thinking.

You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you with this wise intention. George Washington

Now for your Adams quote.... in context It is from a letter to Jefferson and he is relating an arguement between a school teacher and the parson.


"Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!" But in this exclamation I wold have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean Hell."


Washington never said your quote, it is from the treaty of Tripolii. Which didn't get to America or pass until after Washington left office.

General Tolerant Christianity is the law of the land! Daniel Webster


The Christian Religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religon of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity, let the Blackguard [scoundrel, rogue] pain say what he will. John Adams

Do you think your pen, or the pen of any other man, can unchristianize the mass of our citizens Samual Adams to Thomas Paine

I have long been of the opinion that the evidence of the truth of Christianity requires only to be carefully examined to produce conviction in candid minds, and I think that they who undertake that tast will derive advantages. John Jay Author of the Federalist papers and first Chief Justice

Bad examples to youth are more rare in America, which must be comfortable consideraton to parents. to this may be truely added, that serious religion, under its various denominations is not only tolerated, but respected and practiced. Atheiesm is unknown there. Ben Franklin

this is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The Religion of Christ can give them one which will makethem rich indeed Patrick Henry

As to your last point as Jefferson stated Certainly, no power to presribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in any religious disiple has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the states.

Jefferson clearly states that the States could pass laws regarding religion if they so chose, but the federal government was prohibited.