My FP+ success story ..

[DisneyKidds]

You only mention the headliners, but what about the waits for attractions like HM and IASW? Under legacy, we would've ridden the headliners with FP and then had shorter waits for HM or POC. So overall, we were able to do more with legacy.

Agree with you there. Standby lines, in general, on average, as Josh's empirical evidence shows, have gotten longer. Whereas we might have ridden something like PotC two times in a day under legacy FP, jumping on when we happen to be walking by and it had no wait, now we only ride it once, either with FP+ or later in the day when the actual standby line is short, because the long standby lines, like you might see on Josh's site, aren't there all day. But that's one of the warts I've pointed out a few times. We ride lass rides under FP+. No disputing that.

However, while we might ride less rides, we still ride everything over the course of our trips, and we tend to get it done more efficiently, and for us....more enjoyably.

 

[Sharpdisney]

The one thing everyone on these boards has in common is a passion for Disney. If we didn't care so much we wouldn't criticize the things we don't like.

 

[MrInfinity]

Exactly, seriously, thanks for recognizing my point!

It was Lake that made the comment about WHAT WAS POSSIBLE USING FP+ (specifically, be happy with three attractions a day and long waits for everything else). That's all I've been talking about. I provided anecdotal evidence to the contrary, that using FP+ it is possible to ride 15 attractions a day (combination of FP and standby) with very little wait time, even during the busiest week of the year. To refute my evidence you furthered the totally irrelevant argument about average standby wait times calculated by some nebulous blog, wait times that most likely have little relevance to someone actually touring the parks using FP+, like me, last week! Thanks for taking that marginally useful Josh info off the table so we can focus on what is really possible for someone using FP+ in combination with ACTUAL standby lines.

As for FP+ waits, I consider a FP+ wait to be how much time it takes to get to the merge point, where you scan your FP+ the second time. On almost all of our FP+ we had zero wait to that point. Yes, you may have a couple minute wait from there, as would someone who merges in from the standby line. Really though, a couple minutes doesn't change the result. SERIOUSLY.

It appeared that you whipped out Josh's analysis to support Lake's assertion that for the rides where you don't have FP+ you have to wait in long lines. That's not necessarily true, not by a long shot. Sure, for whatever reason some people will wait in the long lines that feed Josh's averages, but you don't have to. And again, averages can be very misleading. Does Josh accumulate data by day and by hour? That would certainly be more useful, allowing people to target when they use the standby lines.

As for posted standby wait times in general being inaccurate, I base that solely on my own STANDBY experience, and countless reports on these boards that state the posted STANDBY wait was one thing, whereas the actual STANDBY wait was something less. I think standby times are generally overstated throughout the day, but much more so late, although some can be accurate. It's a crap shoot, and any analysis based on data from a crap shoot is most likely gonna be........

I agree. Despite what the wait-time-tabulators will assert, the amount you can do in a day does not seem to have gone down for most -- and it certainly did not for us. Perhaps the posted time has gone up... like for the HM. Before, nobody fast passed it. Now, some do. So maybe before the posted standby wait was 20 min and now it's 30 min. But - you can log in to MDE and pull a FP for it on the fly most of the time! We did. I was amazed. Why are people waiting when they could just skip the line. So we pull the FP, and go right up to the front. So yes rides that used to not need FP now have FP, and perhaps a wait... but you can FP it so in practice you are not actually waiting longer.

And even that is not 100% because I know in 2012 we waited 45 min once for the HM... when FP was not an option... but in 2014 we were able to pull a FP+ for it every time we wanted to ride.

So in practice, I'm just not seeing the actual time to do stuff is longer -- and the posted wait times have to be taken w a grain of salt and understanding of the statistic they truly represent. Especially when you factor in the time saved going and pulling FP- tickets as DisneyKidds points out here. You have to factor in all that time saved, and the fact that you can manipulate your next MDE ride on your phone while standing in line for another. That is like using your time in line to do your Fast Pass running - something you could never do under FP-.

Do you remember that walk from Soarin to TT to grab a FP- and then meet up w your family? It was an exhausting long walk that took 10 min if you booked it! Now you don't need to do that at all and we've found we are enjoying the interim times more. For people who go as a couple or not particularly seeking to hang out w family maybe that's not a big deal but for a family trip this is a huge game-changer for so many.

 

[DisneyKidds]

DK, please put my comment in it's proper context. I was referring to a family with children who may only be able to go to WDW at busy times and under those conditions could be looking at long SB waits for everything else beyond their initial 3 FP's.

I'll dig out the quote if I gotta, or you could just admit you let your rhetoric cloud the truth.

You implied the only way someone could find value in the FP+ system was if they could be happy riding three attractions a day, with long SB lines for everything else. You know darn well that, compared to Universal and their magical express pass, you intended to portray that as the norm for WDW's flawed FP+ system. Own it. It's ok.

Guess what? We are a family with three children who can only go during the busiest times of year, and in three trips under those conditions, utilizing FP+, we rode everything we wanted to (which wasn't every ride, but almost all) without waiting in the long SB waits you say we'd have to, or Josh's data says we must have.

 

[Laketravis]

So in practice, I'm just not seeing the actual time to do stuff is longer -- and the posted wait times have to be taken w a grain of salt and understanding of the statistic they truly represent.

Guess what? We are a family with three children who can only go during the busiest times of year, and in three trips under those conditions, utilizing FP+, we rode everything we wanted to (which wasn't every ride, but almost all) without waiting in the long SB waits you say we'd have to, or Josh's data says we must have.

The entire premise of yield management is to flatten the demand curve. As a result and when properly implemented with a target utilization level established (which I would agree WDW has done properly), the queue times for the most popular resources will stabilize and see a slight reduction in all but 2% of the cases. Meanwhile, the previously underutilized resources introduced to the resource pool will see average queue times increase in 98% of all cases, the severity of which is logarithmic to crowd levels.

Results can vary slightly at ground level because CM's (1) have the flexibility to adjust SB/FP ratios and (2) they sometimes make mistakes.

These are hard established formulas based on many mathematical elements. To dispute the results is like disputing 2+2=4.

To the extent this increases the aggregate wait time for any particular guest as opposed to the wait times they may have incurred before introduction depends on whether or not that guest chooses the same set of resources under the same set of conditions.

Barring any comparison to "previous" conditions, the wait times in the aggregate are greater in combination for any guest.

 

[wisblue]

I'll dig out the quote if I gotta, or you could just admit you let your rhetoric cloud the truth.

You implied the only way someone could find value in the FP+ system was if they could be happy riding three attractions a day, with long SB lines for everything else. You know darn well that, compared to Universal and their magical express pass, you intended to portray that as the norm for WDW's flawed FP+ system. Own it. It's ok.

Guess what? We are a family with three children who can only go during the busiest times of year, and in three trips under those conditions, utilizing FP+, we rode everything we wanted to (which wasn't every ride, but almost all) without waiting in the long SB waits you say we'd have to, or Josh's data says we must have.

I'll provide the quote for you and, to avoid any accusation of taking the comment out of context, include the entire post in which it was made:


"I discuss a lot of things in other threads. Annual Passes, dining plan, Sunglass Hut, 7DMT, resorts, peeing in the pool at all-inclusive caribbean resorts, even some appropriate posts in the (gasp!) Uni threads about people cutting in line and construction at a resort.

This particular thread is about whether or not one has embraced FP+

Let's stick to the topic, shall we?

I see small benefits for a small number of guests, and reduced benefits for a larger number of guests. I don't think it has the potential to be embraced by all without some changes.

This debate has been going on for over three years now, and both sides are still as passionate about their position as they were on day one. And as solid as those positions are, WDW has been even more stoic. The three components that are the cause of discontent for many have not changed:

1. Tiering
2. Three
3. Single park

Add to that the negative effect FP+ has had on Standby times as well as the closing of many attractions without the addition of more and I think these discussions will continue for the foreseeable future.

Unless sleeping late while still being able to walk onto three things when you get to a park is all that matters to you, embracing FP+ is hard."

There was no implication about what it would take for someone to like FP+, there was a direct statement.

I will also add that, if the objective is to get everyone to embrace FP+, that is an impossible goal. It is obvious from the discussion on these boards that some people simply don't like planning. So, they presumably wouldn't be happy even if Disney allowed them to make a reservation in advance for every attraction in the park, much less just 4 or 5 instead of 3. Also, not everyone would be happy if Disney issued more FPs and caused the wait times to use those FPs to increase to a norm of 20 minutes or so. And, eliminating tiering would be great for the people who could get FPs for all of the current Tier 1 attractions, but wouldn't be so great for those who couldn't get a FP for either of them. And even some people who got FPs for both Soarin and Test Track, for example, would still be dissatisfied because they can't get more than one.

 

[mickeyluv'r]

No one is buying what you are selling.

I hope you have a productive day.

Sorry, you don't speak for me. I thought LakeTravis' post about Mcdonald's was interesting. I think the recent news about the current tech fair and all the smart devices in the works are telling. It is amazing what our phones can do, nor am I opposed to Disney using smart technology to improve park touring.

I have tried FP+. We went to WDW three times last year. Granted, in years past, we took longer trips.

On our first visit, we had to make three trips to the hotel desk to get our bands fixed. At first one band didn't work, then all of them didn't work, then again half of them worked. We were at CSR, so walking to the lobby was time consuming. I estimate I lost at least an hour of our vacation just trying to get the bands to work. Oh, and the plastic plate on our door kept falling off. Minor, but sad.

In the parks, the kiosk lines were, by my estimates, at least 45mintues long! I wanted to change a FP, but the kiosk wait was longer than the standby line for the attraction we wanted! no 4th FP, no making changes via phone. We spent over an hour in GS converting our tickets to AP's. Almost two hours. The Cm didn't kow how to bridge tickets, and kept making mistakes.

Second visit, again kiosk lines were crazy. Still no 4th FP. We did like AoA, except the crazy toilet paper roll holder. The toilet paper kept falling off the holder into the trash can, Yuck! beautiful resort, fun to explore. We were only onsite one night, no DDP. We lost over half an hour in GS. The CM from our last trip had mistakenly entered the expiration date of our AP's. THAT meant we couldn't use the 10% discount, because the cards were already past the printed expiration date. I'd called about he glitch before we arrived. But it couldn't be fixed. It also impacted our ability to prebook FP.

Oh, I should add- during our late summer 2013 trip we used old tickets. WE were forced to convert them.I have many leftovers from prior trips. Getting the new RFID cards initially cost us over an hour. Then, in the process the CM made a major $250+ mistake! What should have been a 7day no expire ticket was instead converted to a TWO day ticket! Imagine our surprise when the ticket was rejected at the park gate. We lost OVER AN HOUR that morning. The Rope Drop hour! What proof did we have on us that it was supposed to be a seven day hopper with five days left? It was scary. We were accused of lying. Finally a manager took pity on us after looking up our names in the system. He looked at just how many tickets we had in our names over the last ten years, (they can do that) and how many ten family member trips we've taken...and concluded it would take him hours to look up all the old tickets we have in our name. He agreed to give us, I think- a four day expiring non-hopper. (we were onsite that many more days that trip)

Okay, so during our summer visit things were a little better. But, gosh...we spent two days at US, and it was just so much easier. We still had problems with FP. Summer Kiosk lines were even worse than spring lines. Instead of half an hour in 80 degrees, folks baked in the 100 degree sun for half an hour to get that elusive 4th FP! So much fun! the 4th FP options were all 2nd tier. Where we sued to get multiple Mountain FP, we can now only get one.

As US, we converted our ticket to US AP's for less than $15 each! No line, no hassle. We had our new AP's in less than five minutes! We were able to get same day ADR's, and because we were onsite we had FotLA to most attractions. Getting our FotLA pass took us mere moments at the self serve kiosk. The new train attraction which connects the two parks is also just really amazing! What an innovative idea!

I know folks here hate to compare Us to WDW, but when you experience them side by side. the difference is huge. I don't imagine WDW could implement the same system US uses, but they could implement one that is hassle free.

but one of my biggest gripes again WDW is how complicated it is to eat a simple lunch. Booking it half a year in advance, the no show fee commitment, the hassle of timing WDW transportation, lines to check-in, waiting well past the ADR time to be seated, slow check out when you are done eating.

To me, that's the part where I say the masses are just taking what Disney dishes out without questioning the absurdity of it all. Surely, Disney knows full well a million people are going to Visit WDW today and that 90% of them are going to want to eat lunch. Instead of providing ample tables, they make guests conform to a crazy system. the crazy part is that many folks are okay with being treated that way.

Oh, and during all our visits we saw what others have said- rides the formerly had no wait, now have LONG waits. Even with a FP- we often had long waits. WITH a FP, we waited over half an hour to ride the Mtns. We skipped Soarin' all last year. Actually, we mostly skipped FP in Epcot altogether, and instead hopped to HS. While we were able to get FP for our arrival half days, we only had about 1/3 as many FP as we used to use.

I also am willing to bet I've gone to WDw far more times than the majority here. I've also been n the DIS longer than most.

 

[Laketravis]

You implied the only way someone could find value in the FP+ system was if they could be happy riding three attractions a day, with long SB lines for everything else.

I'll provide the quote for you:

Unless sleeping late while still being able to walk onto three things when you get to a park is all that matters to you, embracing FP+ is hard."

And you're telling me you see those as one in the same?

 

[Laketravis]

Maybe it will help some understand the connection I was trying to make with my McDonald's analogy if they see from what basis I made it:

McDonald's to test mobile ordering

 

[wisblue]

And you're telling me you see those as one in the same?

They may not be identical, and that quote may not be the one the PP was remembering. But, that quote does illustrate how you have tried to portray anyone who likes FP+ as someone who is satisfied doing only 3 rides with short waits.

 

[Laketravis]

...that quote does illustrate how you have tried to portray anyone who likes FP+ as someone who is satisfied doing only 3 rides with short waits.

No it doesn't. It's simply how you choose to interpret it.

 

[mickeyluv'r]

Maybe it will help some understand the connection I was trying to make with my McDonald's analogy if they see from what basis I made it:

McDonald's to test mobile ordering

Good. I agree the comparison is interesting.

We could also compare it to the systems various big box stores are using.

I suppose some folks like the new self serve kiosks popping up. The promise of a shorter line in exchange for doing all the work ourselves- and the store paying less wages to real employees.

One store near me is also experimenting with a portable hand held scanner. The store gets to track the location of the user, and gets them to all the bagging and scanning- in exchange for a few op up coupons.

Too bad most customers find the whole thing annoying and slow.

This thread started with an anecdote. Some of us have counter-anecdotes.

 

[wisblue]

No it doesn't. It's simply how you choose to interpret it.

Maybe you will have to explain to me, and everyone else, how to interpret this statement:

"Unless sleeping late while still being able to walk onto three things when you get to a park is all that matters to you, embracing FP+ is hard."

Edit: While you're at it, please explain to me how I am supposed to interpret the quote that DisneyKidds cited:

"If you are okay with three attractions per day and having to wait in long lines for everything else, then you'll probably see value in it."

 

[DisneyKidds]

I appreciate the assist, but here is the quote I was specifically referring to.....

It's not about "what it used to be like". It's about what it is now and the value you currently get for the dollars you currently spend.

It has nothing to do with what gas used to cost or what a park ticket used to cost; it has everything to do with what a WDW vacation costs now and what you get in return.

If you are okay with three attractions per day and having to wait in long lines for everything else, then you'll probably see value in it.

But if you're the kind of person who tends to measure what you get each day against what you spent to get it, there's a good chance you might come home thinking you paid too much. Either way, I hope you have a good time.

Seems pretty clear to me Lake is saying that under the current system the value a guest gets from FP+ is limited because you only get three attractions per day [without lines via FP] and you have to wait in long lines for everything else. The only way a guest could find value with their Disney FP+ vacation is if they are happy with that.

You wanna spin your own words some other way now, Lake?

 

[Shaden]

As for FP+ waits, I consider a FP+ wait to be how much time it takes to get to the merge point, where you scan your FP+ the second time. On almost all of our FP+ we had zero wait to that point. Yes, you may have a couple minute wait from there, as would someone who merges in from the standby line. Really though, a couple minutes doesn't change the result. SERIOUSLY.

When you are talking about multiples of 10, it SERIOUSLY does make a difference. 2 mins becomes 20 mins, 5 becomes 50. So yea, it makes a difference.

It appeared that you whipped out Josh's analysis to support Lake's assertion that for the rides where you don't have FP+ you have to wait in long lines. That's not necessarily true, not by a long shot. Sure, for whatever reason some people will wait in the long lines that feed Josh's averages, but you don't have to. And again, averages can be very misleading. Does Josh accumulate data by day and by hour? That would certainly be more useful, allowing people to target when they use the standby lines.

While I get where you are coming from on Lake's post, the reason the data supports it is because for so many rides wait times have increased. His statement would be more accurate if he had said "Unless you are satisfied by sleeping in and getting walk ons for three rides then standing in longer lines, embracing FP+ is hard". I would assume that's what he meant. He didn't preclude explicitly doing more than 3 rides, but I can see that interpretation. Now, long lines aren't universally true, some days are going to be lighter, lower crowds, etc. You might have lower waits on those days. But even on those days, on average, after FP+, the waits are still going to be longer than they were before FP+. And if we are talking about "embracing FP+" for many that makes it difficult, especially when they used to not have problems getting those 3 FPs (or more) under the old system, even when sleeping in.

And Josh accumulates data day by day and hour by hour, yes. Really, you should check out, or read up on his stuff.

As for posted standby wait times in general being inaccurate, I base that solely on my own STANDBY experience, and countless reports on these boards that state the posted STANDBY wait was one thing, whereas the actual STANDBY wait was something less. I think standby times are generally overstated throughout the day, but much more so late, although some can be accurate. It's a crap shoot, and any analysis based on data from a crap shoot is most likely gonna be........

Of course that is true, and its always been true. But the margin of incorrectness for those SB times hasn't changed. One of the big problems with SB posted times is they always track what the SB WAS ... not what it actually is. There is a lag time. Their accuracy hasn't changed but for many attractions they have increased, significantly in some cases.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Ok, Shadey......posted standby waits were 8 times what we actually waited.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Oops, sorry........Shaden. Typo, my bad.

 

[Shaden]

Ok, Shadey......posted standby waits were 8 times what we actually waited.

Still including FPs as post wait times being inaccurate, still pretty silly.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Stop the presses. 2 minutes becomes 20? 5 becomes 50? No. From merge to load it isn't that long, on any FP ride I've been on.

On the day in question....Space Mountain wait from 0 to 5. Thunder from 0 to 5. 7DMT from 0 to 2. Speedway from 0 to 8, if that, because it loads slow. So my 50 minutes goes to 70, so Standby was 7x what we actually waited. 50 vs 490.....70 vs 490, point remains the same.

 

[Shaden]

Stop the presses. 2 minutes becomes 20? 5 becomes 50? No. From merge to load it isn't that long, on any FP ride I've been on.

On the day in question....Space Mountain wait from 0 to 5. Thunder from 0 to 5. 7DMT from 0 to 2. Speedway from 0 to 8, if that, because it loads slow. So my 50 minutes goes to 70, so Standby was 7x what we actually waited. 50 vs 490.....70 vs 490, point remains the same.

I will try to really break this down, nice and simple.

If you said the wait was 1 min (instead of your "0"s), and posted wait time was 60, the posted wait time was 60X more than your actual wait.

Likewise if you are saying posted wait times were 10X more than your actual wait, but are discounting 2 mins here and 5 mins there, the impact of those waits on the accuracy of your claim is magnified by the claim itself, thus 10X.


Mostly I like how you are still focused on this stupid little bit, because you insist on trying to establish that the posted wait times are inaccurate, even though you use FPs to skip the line then claim therefore the wait time was inaccurate, which is ridiculous.

Here lets try the important stuff again, maybe you will pay attention to it this time:

It appeared that you whipped out Josh's analysis to support Lake's assertion that for the rides where you don't have FP+ you have to wait in long lines. That's not necessarily true, not by a long shot. Sure, for whatever reason some people will wait in the long lines that feed Josh's averages, but you don't have to. And again, averages can be very misleading. Does Josh accumulate data by day and by hour? That would certainly be more useful, allowing people to target when they use the standby lines.

While I get where you are coming from on Lake's post, the reason the data supports it is because for so many rides wait times have increased. His statement would be more accurate if he had said "Unless you are satisfied by sleeping in and getting walk ons for three rides then standing in longer lines, embracing FP+ is hard". I would assume that's what he meant. He didn't preclude explicitly doing more than 3 rides, but I can see that interpretation. Now, long lines aren't universally true, some days are going to be lighter, lower crowds, etc. You might have lower waits on those days. But even on those days, on average, after FP+, the waits are still going to be longer than they were before FP+. And if we are talking about "embracing FP+" for many that makes it difficult, especially when they used to not have problems getting those 3 FPs (or more) under the old system, even when sleeping in.

And Josh accumulates data day by day and hour by hour, yes. Really, you should check out, or read up on his stuff.

As for posted standby wait times in general being inaccurate, I base that solely on my own STANDBY experience, and countless reports on these boards that state the posted STANDBY wait was one thing, whereas the actual STANDBY wait was something less. I think standby times are generally overstated throughout the day, but much more so late, although some can be accurate. It's a crap shoot, and any analysis based on data from a crap shoot is most likely gonna be........

Of course that is true, and its always been true. But the margin of incorrectness for those SB times hasn't changed. One of the big problems with SB posted times is they always track what the SB WAS ... not what it actually is. There is a lag time. Their accuracy hasn't changed but for many attractions they have increased, significantly in some cases.