My FP+ Park Strategy WILL SAVE ME ALMOST $20,000!!!

[MrInfinity]

Sounds like the description of a poor touring strategy rather than support for the generalization that everybody spent an hour each day getting their FP's.

Your posts are so confusing. This responds nothing to my point, and is kind of oddly derogatory. So... you said you would ride a ride, like BTMRR.. then, to "save time", you would pull a FP to it right then. Great. Now, you must A) leave BTMRR. B) go do something else. C) return in a few hours to ride it. Those things take time. You have to look at the big picture of how a day flows to get the jist of just how FP+ saves. Disney has given us a tool that can cut out substantial amounts of walking from a day at Disney World.

And, this is presuming you "settle for" the FP- at the kiosk you're at. A lot of ppl say they'd check the app and go pull a better FP- if BTMRR was giving too late a return time. Then, you have to not only do A) B) and C) above, but you need to walk up to Space Mountain, Peter Pan, or whatever you are pulling a ticket to, first. That's walking to it, walking away from it, and walking to it again.

All wasted time, Lake.

You don't see the wasted time cuz you are counting that time in transit as just lost time. You simply cannot beat, having FP+'s queued up for 11, 12, and 1, to do something like see A&E, ride the SDMT, and ride Peter Pan, all while squeezing in the Teacups between the first two and IASW between the second two. 5 major rides in 3 hours during the busiest parts of the day.

So how do you resolve that challenge now when you have to view your choices from a kiosk? Seems like more effort is required now to derive the same information.

I know my family, and what works for us. I know we'll probly hit the parks till dinner, then head back to the hotel. Or, I know where we have an ADR that night. That determines when we'll be leaving. I just pick my FP+'s to fit usually in the hours preceding any meal we have, because I know I'm planning to make my BOG, CRT, Y&Y, or whatever. Early to midday, giving general attention to conflicts with ADRs works fine.

What's really interesting is Wis says he picks his for later. How cool. I pick mine for earlier, he picks his for later. Under FP-, we'd both get stuck with "whatever". Now we can each pick a time which is conveniently not at all when the other actually wants his!

 

[Laketravis]

Your posts are so confusing. This responds nothing to my point...

Not confusing at all and very much to your point. You just have a very distinct habit of taking a false premise and building your point around it; in this case you made a blatant generalization that "with FP-, it consumed over an hour out of ones' day just pulling tickets" and I'm pointing out that is certainly not true for everyone and if it took you an hour every day just pulling tickets it was a very inefficient touring method.

 

[MrInfinity]

Not confusing at all and very much to your point. You just have a very distinct habit of taking a false premise and building your point around it; in this case you made a blatant generalization that "with FP-, it consumed over an hour out of ones' day just pulling tickets" and I'm pointing out that is certainly not true for everyone and if it took you an hour every day just pulling tickets it was a very inefficient touring method.

Think it over, Lake. Don't just reply nu-uh you were inefficient. Walk thru your day under FP-. If you want to compare them objectively, you should do this. If you don't care, then don't. Then look at your recent touring plan, in which you point out just how efficient FP+ is at doing a lot in a little time. All the places where it has cut out waste. This is one of your premises in fact, that you can get tons done in short stretches at WDW.

I keep trying to draw back to how you are saving $20,000 by going for an extra week per trip. Would you consider doing the side-by-side depiction, maybe in a spreadsheet?

 

[Planogirl]

It's not complicated.

Pull a FP- for BTMRR and ride Splash. They are right next to each other. If you still had time take the boat to Tom Sawyer Island. This is also right next to BTMRR.

Lather, rinse, repeat in each land.

 

[Angel Ariel]

because with FP-, it consumed over an hour out of ones' day just pulling tickets, and walking to a ride that extra time that was required. Even if you can get to a ride, pull a ticket, then back to where you wanted to be in 5-10 min, you can clearly see that repeating this 5, 7, 12, or however many times one pulled a ticket adds up. People consistently ignore this massive amount of time saved not going up to each ride they wish to ride, twice, to ride it once. It's really hard to compare apples to apples in terms of waits, cuz FP+ cuts lots of time out of your days in other ways.

Can only speak for myself when I say this is not something we've ignored. We simply did not spend that much time just pulling FP tickets. Maybe others did, due to their touring style choices, I don't know - but we did not. The fact that some did does not mean all did.

 

[Angel Ariel]

So you are increasing your park days for what we once would've been able to accomplish in 1 day? That may be a great strategy for you, but I cannot afford to be away from work for an extended period of time. I really don't know how unique my experiences are, nor do you.

We don't have the option to spend more than 2 days in MK. We have 4 day Armed Forces Salute tickets. 2 days to MK, 1 day to Epcot, 1/2 day each to AK and DHS. I'd love it if WDW went back to the 5 day AFS tickets that they had back in 2007, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I've heard people say that they would get a FP and do other things in the area until the return time came up. But if the return time for something like one of the mountains ia 3 hours out, there often aren't that many things to do nearby for that much time.

As one of those people who use the described touring style, I will tell you that we never ran into getting FPs in MK where the return time was 3 hours away. Other parks, yes sometimes (usually Soarin or TSMM), but not MK. It's not like our visits were during low crowd level times either (not *peak* time, like christmas or easter, but not like level 1-4 crowds either. More like 5-8s).

 

[cakebaker]

We don't have the option to spend more than 2 days in MK. We have 4 day Armed Forces Salute tickets. 2 days to MK, 1 day to Epcot, 1/2 day each to AK and DHS. I'd love it if WDW went back to the 5 day AFS tickets that they had back in 2007, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

As I told the person who posted that, we have not increased our length of stay. Our last 2 trips were only 4 days each, shortest we've ever taken and our first with fp+. We don't spend what would amount to 2 full days at the MK regardless. It's 2-3 half days. Park hopping is essential to us. We've always done it though, so that's not different either. It just works better now.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Your posts are so confusing. This responds nothing to my point, and is kind of oddly derogatory. So... you said you would ride a ride, like BTMRR.. then, to "save time", you would pull a FP to it right then. Great. Now, you must A) leave BTMRR. B) go do something else. C) return in a few hours to ride it. Those things take time. You have to look at the big picture of how a day flows to get the jist of just how FP+ saves.

This quote is making the assumption that the FP return time is "a few hours" out. We quite frequently would get a FP for Buzz, ride it standby, ride it FP, then grab another FP for Buzz b/c the first return time we got was only 15-20 mins away from when we pulled it. Then before using the second FP, we'd see Monsters Inc. or maybe PeopleMover. We pulled BTMRR FPs that were only 20 mins away at 4(ish) in the afternoon. Ride BTMRR SB or ride Splash and come back and use the FP. That kind of FP pulling/use does not add up to an hour spent solely on pulling FPs.

Disney has given us a tool that can cut out substantial amounts of walking from a day at Disney World.

And yet, somehow I criss crossed the park more with FP+ than we *ever* did with legacy.

You simply cannot beat, having FP+'s queued up for 11, 12, and 1, to do something like see A&E, ride the SDMT, and ride Peter Pan, all while squeezing in the Teacups between the first two and IASW between the second two. 5 major rides in 3 hours during the busiest parts of the day.

Just as your claiming LT's bias isn't allowing him to see the "wasted time", your bias here does not seem to be allowing you to be willing to see that perhaps others feel differently. For me, I care more about my "whole day" experience than I do about a 3 hr span in the middle of the day. We accomplished more/day under legacy than we did with FP+. Most people even in this thread have said they've added a day, or somehow added time to accommodate changes to touring because of FP+. The benefit of being able to preschedule those rides for midday does not, *for us,* outweigh the downside to accomplishing less/day overall than we used to.

To be clear, I'm not saying we didn't accomplish a lot in November. We did! And on days we were only in the park for part of the day for whatever reason (arrival day, marathon, etc), FP+ was great...definitely a leg up on legacy in that respect. But we did not feel the same on days we were in one park all day long. We accomplished more/day with legacy when we were in one park all day than we did with FP+.

What's really interesting is Wis says he picks his for later. How cool. I pick mine for earlier, he picks his for later. Under FP-, we'd both get stuck with "whatever". Now we can each pick a time which is conveniently not at all when the other actually wants his!

No one has ever denied that being able to pick your own times is very convenient and a definite plus to the new system. It's whether or not that feature outweighs the other aspects of the system that most disagree about.

 

[wisblue]

It's not complicated.

Pull a FP- for BTMRR and ride Splash. They are right next to each other. If you still had time take the boat to Tom Sawyer Island. This is also right next to BTMRR.

Lather, rinse, repeat in each land.

You obviously visited at different times than we did. At the busy times that we usually have to visit that might have worked once or twice in a day. For example, if we got to the Splash/BTMRR area around 10 AM (after doing Space and a few other things in Fantasyland and Tomorrowland) we might have seen standby lines of about 10-20 minutes and FP return times about an hour out for each. So, we would get a FP for one, ride the other, and do something like POC and/or JC in between. But, by the time our FP return time came up, our choices for another were pretty limited. First of all, to get one we had to trek to another part of the park because the only FPs available were for JC, PP, Space, Buzz, and Pooh (maybe I'm forgetting something). By 11-11:30 we probably had ridden those things already if we intended to and the FP return times for most of them were 2 or more hours out.

This is exactly what we ran into at Disneyland on our visit over New Year's week a few weeks ago. It wasn't a matter of "lather, rinse, repeat". It was more like, lather, rinse, and then find nothing worthwhile available with a return time that wasn't several hours out. We had much better luck just hitting the parks early and riding the main attractions and taking advantage of single rider lines. We got one FP per day and that was it because it wasn't worth it to us to get one to get a ride 4-5 hours later for something we had done with little or no wait in the first 2-3 hours after the park opened. Or to get one for something like Autopia that we didn't intend to do in the first place.

 

[wisblue]

As one of those people who use the described touring style, I will tell you that we never ran into getting FPs in MK where the return time was 3 hours away. Other parks, yes sometimes (usually Soarin or TSMM), but not MK. It's not like our visits were during low crowd level times either (not *peak* time, like christmas or easter, but not like level 1-4 crowds either. More like 5-8s).

That's the key right there. Most of our trips have to be during those peak times, and our touring style was developed during those times. When we have been able to visit with crowd levels of 5-8 or lower, we consider it a luxury.

During those peak times the FP return times for the most popular rides moved out quite far, quite quickly. In our experience you weren't able to walk up to Space Mountain at noon and get a return time before 3 PM. The fact that a lot of people rushed (dare I say "ran") to a ride like Space at rope drop, grabbed FPs, and then jumped into the standby line (pushing past others to join the rest of their group) contributed to that.

 

[Toad_Passenger]

From reading this thread, I've concluded the following:

1) Before FP-, with a good amount of pre-planning and a good touring plan you could ride all the things you want and save money.
2) Once FP- was implemented, with a good amount of pre-planning and a good touring plan you could ride all the things you want and save money.
3) Now with FP+, with a good amount of pre-planning and a good touring plan you could ride all the things you want and save money.

Am I getting it correct?

I would say that No-FP, FP-, FP+ doesn't matter at all, and the important thing is the latter part of each statement.

 

[cakebaker]

The fact that this board even developed the term "designated runner" is a testament to the inefficiency of legacy and what you had to do to make it work efficiently.

I know, I know....no one posting here ever used a designated runner. Of course not.

For me, I care more about my "whole day" experience than I do about a 3 hr span in the middle of the day. We accomplished more/day under legacy than we did with FP+. Most people even in this thread have said they've added a day, or somehow added time to accommodate changes to touring because of FP+.

Having your rides set in a schedule allows your whole day to run more smoothly and frees up your time. It's not that you just have 3 hours working efficiently, it's that a major component of the day is taken care of in an efficient manner so that you can do other things.

And the only ones I'm reading that say they're thinking of lengthening their stays are those who don't like FP+ from the start and claim you have to lengthen to get things done. So it's a self fulfilling prophecy- I think you have to, so we do. It's my contention you don't. We certainly didn't and we rode everything from thrill rides to kiddie rides with no problem at all with a relatively short trip during a busy time.

If we're back to the idea of - I want to ride like I did when I could fill my pockets with fp's and do nothing much more than ride headliners all day- yeah, that's a problem.

 

[cakebaker]

From reading this thread, I've concluded the following:

1) Before FP-, with a good amount of pre-planning and a good touring plan you could ride all the things you want and save money.
2) Once FP- was implemented, with a good amount of pre-planning and a good touring plan you could ride all the things you want and save money.
3) Now with FP+, with a good amount of pre-planning and a good touring plan you could ride all the things you want and save money.

Am I getting it correct?

I would say that No-FP, FP-, FP+ doesn't matter at all, and the important thing is the latter part of each statement.

Give the man(or woman) a prize, he figured out the answer! It is and always has been the key- good planning.

It has always been necessary to put in a great deal of planning- at least for your first few trips. You have to learn the ropes with any system. People want to say they could fly by the seat of their pants with legacy, but I think perhaps they forget their first few trips.

 

[mom2rtk]

From reading this thread, I've concluded the following:

1) Before FP-, with a good amount of pre-planning and a good touring plan you could ride all the things you want and save money.
2) Once FP- was implemented, with a good amount of pre-planning and a good touring plan you could ride all the things you want and save money.
3) Now with FP+, with a good amount of pre-planning and a good touring plan you could ride all the things you want and save money.

Am I getting it correct?

I would say that No-FP, FP-, FP+ doesn't matter at all, and the important thing is the latter part of each statement.

I get what you are saying. But the point is that if Disney had not changed the park experience with FP+, the OP would never have stepped back and re-evaluated how he was spending his dollars in central Florida.

Disney gave the mouse a cookie. And things are happening that perhaps they did not intend.

 

[wisblue]

From reading this thread, I've concluded the following:

1) Before FP-, with a good amount of pre-planning and a good touring plan you could ride all the things you want and save money.
2) Once FP- was implemented, with a good amount of pre-planning and a good touring plan you could ride all the things you want and save money.
3) Now with FP+, with a good amount of pre-planning and a good touring plan you could ride all the things you want and save money.

Am I getting it correct?

I would say that No-FP, FP-, FP+ doesn't matter at all, and the important thing is the latter part of each statement.

I totally agree. The big difference is that the specific nature of the plan is different under each system.

Also, that tiny percentage of guests who used paper FP to ride certain things multiple times are going to have a harder time doing that.

 

[MrInfinity]

This quote is making the assumption that the FP return time is "a few hours" out. We quite frequently would get a FP for Buzz, ride it standby, ride it FP, then grab another FP for Buzz b/c the first return time we got was only 15-20 mins away from when we pulled it. Then before using the second FP, we'd see Monsters Inc. or maybe PeopleMover. We pulled BTMRR FPs that were only 20 mins away at 4(ish) in the afternoon. Ride BTMRR SB or ride Splash and come back and use the FP. That kind of FP pulling/use does not add up to an hour spent solely on pulling FPs.

It's not the time spent putting your card in the machine and waiting for the ticket. It's that the return times cannot be optimized, and they require you to approach a ride twice to ride once.

And yet, somehow I criss crossed the park more with FP+ than we *ever* did with legacy.

Ok, but how many times have you gone under FP-? And how many times have you gone under FP+? Is it possible you have just not invested the same learning into this new system that you've put into the last one yet? And unlike the last system, you don't like the new system, so naturally your desire to learn it will be less.

Your bias here does not seem to be allowing you to be willing to see that perhaps others feel differently. For me, I care more about my "whole day" experience than I do about a 3 hr span in the middle of the day. We accomplished more/day under legacy than we did with FP+. Most people even in this thread have said they've added a day, or somehow added time to accommodate changes to touring because of FP+. The benefit of being able to preschedule those rides for midday does not, *for us,* outweigh the downside to accomplishing less/day overall than we used to.

Ariel, I don't think this is fair for you to say of me. Even Jimmy and I hit an accord, because he more or less gets that even tho I speak about ways to make FP+ work, I understand that not everyone will like it. It requires more planning, changes who gets to ride more, and for people who used to pull lots of repeat rides, it's going to function less optimally for them. I get it. I respect that you feel such that you don't like it. So pls stop saying people who are Pro-FP+ don't tolerate anyone feeling differently. You don't like FP+. Great. That's not really useful tho, in terms of how I can build a touring strategy. What do you gain from telling everyone who comes out to talk about FP+ that you don't like it, and that they need to accept that it's not good for you?

If it's truly a net negative for you, that's just what it is. I don't expect you to change how you feel. I will help if you want to figure out good ways, I will even brainstorm with you on how we can tour better, but I get nothing out hearing how it's not good for you. I say find a way to make it good, or have Disney be something you love less now. I don't really care. But I'm going to continue to focus on how to make it successful, even if you choose not to embrace such strategies. I still understand that you don't like it.

To be clear, I'm not saying we didn't accomplish a lot in November. We did! And on days we were only in the park for part of the day for whatever reason (arrival day, marathon, etc), FP+ was great...definitely a leg up on legacy in that respect. But we did not feel the same on days we were in one park all day long. We accomplished more/day with legacy when we were in one park all day than we did with FP+.

Why does this matter? This is history. Really, just start going to Disneyland and enjoy FP-.

No one has ever denied that being able to pick your own times is very convenient and a definite plus to the new system. It's whether or not that feature outweighs the other aspects of the system that most disagree about.

In all fairness, this exchange we're having here really doesn't belong in Lakes thread about how to save $20,000. I really enjoy talking to you about it, I just would like to see you lace conversations so heavily w how you don't like it over and over. How you didn't criss cross. How you didn't waste time. If you really did accomplish more / day w Legacy, but others are accomplishing more / day w Plus, do you not care what they're doing differently? You prefer FP-... I get it... But it's not as great as we think it was, and it had its own problems. In adopting FP+, we have to be able to look past our like and dislike of the old system to really compare what the two systems are capable of. If the new system can get you on more, but you just don't like it, that's fine. I'm interested in what it can do. Not which you prefer.

 

[cakebaker]

Ariel, I don't think this is fair for you to say of me. Even Jimmy and I hit an accord, because he more or less gets that even tho I speak about ways to make FP+ work, I understand that not everyone will like it. It certainly changes who gets to ride more, and for people who used to pull lots of repeat rides, it's going to function less optimally for them. I get it. I respect that you feel such that you don't like it. So pls stop saying people who are Pro-FP+ don't tolerate anyone feeling differently. You don't like FP+. Great. That's not really useful information tho, in terms of how I can build a touring strategy. What do you gain from telling everyone who comes out to talk about FP+ that you don't like it, and that they need to accept that it's not good for you?

If it's truly a net negative for you, that's just what it is. I don't expect you to change how you feel. I will help if you want to figure out good ways, I will even brainstorm with you on how we can each tour better, but I get nothing out hearing how it's not good for you. I say find a way to make it good for you, or have Disney be something you love less now. I don't really care. But I'm going to continue to focus on how to make it work, how to make it successful, even if you choose not to embrace such strategies. I still get that you don't like it....

....If you really did accomplish more / day w Legacy, but others are accomplishing more / day w Plus, do you not care what they're doing differently? You really have an affinity toward FP-... I get it... But it's not as great as we think it was, and it had its own problems. In adopting FP+, we have to be able to look past our like and dislike of the old system to really compare what the two systems are capable of. If the new system can get you on more, but you just don't like it, that's fine. I'm interested in what it can do. Not which you prefer.

I hit the like button, but that doesn't do it justice. Very well said! One of the best I've read on these boards...ever.

 

[wisblue]

This quote is making the assumption that the FP return time is "a few hours" out. We quite frequently would get a FP for Buzz, ride it standby, ride it FP, then grab another FP for Buzz b/c the first return time we got was only 15-20 mins away from when we pulled it. Then before using the second FP, we'd see Monsters Inc. or maybe PeopleMover. We pulled BTMRR FPs that were only 20 mins away at 4(ish) in the afternoon. Ride BTMRR SB or ride Splash and come back and use the FP. That kind of FP pulling/use does not add up to an hour spent solely on pulling FPs.

As long as we are talking about what things were like with paper FP, I have a question about paper FP historical fact.

My recollection is that, until the very end of paper FPs, when the FP+ test was in full swing, FP return times were never less than 30 minutes out. When we would go to an attraction right at rope drop, I remember the first return times being 50 minutes out, though I know some people have said it was 40 minutes. For example, if we were in the first group getting to Space Mountain or TSMM at 9 AM, the earliest return time would be 9:50-10:50.

But, as the day went on, the FP return time, even for the less in demand attractions like Buzz, the return time was always at least 30 minutes out. It was as if the system automatically pushed the return time out even if the supply of FPs was not completely exhausted. My recollection of this is reinforced by the reactions that people had when the FP+ test really got going in 2013 and "double dipping" was available for guests participating in the test. I seem to remember a number of posters expressing surprise that FP return times for some things (like Star Tours) were sometimes virtually immediate (like 5 minutes out) because that had never been the case before.

Am I remembering this right? Or maybe it's just that at the busy times that we visited FP return times were just never less than 30 minutes.

 

[Angel Ariel]

It's not the time spent putting your card in the machine and waiting for the ticket. It's that the return times cannot be optimized, and they require you to approach a ride twice to ride once.

I understand that. You asserted that made people spend an hour+ pulling tickets. I'm saying we never spent that amt of time going to the ride, getting a ticket, and coming back. So while I understand that for others who *did*, FP+ may be a time saver for them, time saved is not a benefit of FP+ for us because time wasted wasn't an issue under legacy.

ETA: The point being that "time saved" as a benefit of FP+ is not a universal fact, but dependent on how one toured/tours.

Ok, but how many times have you gone under FP-? And how many times have you gone under FP+? Is it possible you have just not invested the same learning into this new system that you've put into the last one yet? And unlike the last system, you don't like the new system, so naturally your desire to learn it will be less.

I've spent far more time learning FP+ than I ever spent on legacy. So your assumption that because I don't love the system (because, please remember I have ALSO said many times that I don't hate it either) means that I won't have spent as much time learning it is inaccurate.

Ariel, I don't think this is fair for you to say of me. Even Jimmy and I hit an accord, because he more or less gets that even tho I speak about ways to make FP+ work, I understand that not everyone will like it. It requires more planning, changes who gets to ride more, and for people who used to pull lots of repeat rides, it's going to function less optimally for them.

I never said otherwise (referring to the bolded). My comment was specifically in reference to you telling LT that he is just ignoring the time wasted under legacy due to his bias for the system. I think it's fair to say there are biases on both sides of this debate. You stated unequivocally that using legacy took at least an hour, and when someone said they didn't agree your response is that they are just ignoring the facts because of their bias. How many times have you come into threads to correct people's "hyperbole" about FP+ because the hyperbole does nothing to further the discussion? I'm coming at this the same way - any productive comparison of legacy to FP+ needs to leave the hyperbole re: legacy out as well. Stating facts that return times under legacy were always "hours away" or that using legacy took at least an hour/daY just to pull tickets is hyperbole in the same way as saying that one can only ride 3 rides w/o long lines under FP+ is hyperbole. Neither is conducive to the conversation.

*This isn't to say that there weren't times when legacy return times weren't hours away. There were, and I'm not debating that. Was it the situation the vast majority of the year? I'd venture to say not. During peak times, absolutely - but I know FP+ works great for peak times, and I haven't said otherwise.

I get it. I respect that you feel such that you don't like it. So pls stop saying people who are Pro-FP+ don't tolerate anyone feeling differently. You don't like FP+. Great. That's not really useful tho, in terms of how I can build a touring strategy. What do you gain from telling everyone who comes out to talk about FP+ that you don't like it, and that they need to accept that it's not good for you?

Read above. None of what you stated here was my point. And I'm sorry, but no, I don't just come into posts to talk about how I don't like FP+. TBH, if that's all you've gotten from my posts then you aren't really reading them. The only reason I discussed legacy in these last few posts was, as I said above, to address the hyperbole aspect as I don't believe hyperbole on either side helps the conversation. (And, TBH, that's usually the main reason I address legacy at all).

I say find a way to make it good, or have Disney be something you love less now. I don't really care. But I'm going to continue to focus on how to make it successful, even if you choose not to embrace such strategies. I still understand that you don't like it.

I'm here and posting to keep learning and figuring out how to best make FP+ work for me and my family. I don't love Disney less, and honestly again if you haven't gotten from any of my posts over the last few months that I'm adapting and changing to go work with FP+ as best I can, then you haven't been reading them.

Why does this matter? This is history. Really, just start going to Disneyland and enjoy FP-.

The *only* reason I put this disclaimer in was so that I would not be accused of saying that one can't accomplish a lot under FP+. And to specifically illustrate that I DO see benefits to FP+, so that I wouldn't be accused of just hating FP+ altogether. Guess that failed. As for DLR - if I could, I would, not because of legacy but because DLR has always been my favorite park.

How you didn't criss cross. How you didn't waste time.

I'm sorry I didn't realize it wasn't appropriate to point out how FP+ does not always mean saved time, or does not always mean no criss-crossing when responding to the point that FP+ saves time because it eliminates criss-crossing. I've always said that I learned from that experience with FP+ this time, and that I will fix my mistakes in that regard on our next trip. I'd said it enough, I didn't think I needed to say it again.

If you really did accomplish more / day w Legacy, but others are accomplishing more / day w Plus, do you not care what they're doing differently? You really have an affinity toward FP-... I get it...

You aren't getting it though. This isn't about liking legacy more, seriously. It really was about responding to the hyperbole about what the legacy experience was. That's all.

But it's not as great as we think it was, and it had its own problems.

And I have always been one to readily acknowledge that. I also think we have to be willing to admit that while FP+ has it's benefits (and it does, and I have always said so) - that it ALSO has its own problems that are different from legacy's.

In adopting FP+, we have to be able to look past our like and dislike of the old system to really compare what the two systems are capable of.

I am. That's what I was trying to do. I'm sorry you didn't see that, but that's what I was trying to do. In order to truly do that, as I said above, the hyperbole surrounding both systems needs to be put to rest. That is what I was responding to.