My argument against DVC

[sajetto]

I would suggest that not every timeshare is a bad investment even if money is the main issue at hand but every retail purchase likely is. I would also suggest that some people's view and posts are far more biased than others and now where is that true more than here.

I completely agree with Dean on this point. There really is NO WHERE more biased than this board and of course the vast majority of posters here will throw pixie dust in your general direction and tell you to buy, buy, buy!

I have rarely posted on these boards in the past two years because of this fact. I will tell you that my advice to people is DON'T BUY. My husband and I own 601 points at 3 different resorts. (Bought in at ages 22 and 26) It has absolutely NOTHING to do with financial difficulties. We don't make payments on a single thing that we own. I refuse to buy anything if I can't truly own it. However, now that I look back at the amount of money I have put into DVC and how much it has depreciated in value since my purchase I know I would have been FAR better off to have diversified my investment portfolio and placed those funds in multiple interest bearing accounts...then using the funds from matured investments to vacation whenever I wanted at any of the Deluxe resorts I choose. Unfortunately, that is not the decision I made and I cannot stomach the amount of money I will lose by selling. That is why I'm still holding on to all of my DVC contracts and will continue to do so.

If only I knew then what I know now.

 

[Mississippian]

I completely agree with Dean on this point. There really is NO WHERE more biased than this board and of course the vast majority of posters here will throw pixie dust in your general direction and tell you to buy, buy, buy!

I have rarely posted on these boards in the past two years because of this fact. I will tell you that my advice to people is DON'T BUY. My husband and I own 601 points at 3 different resorts. (Bought in at ages 22 and 26) It has absolutely NOTHING to do with financial difficulties. We don't make payments on a single thing that we own. I refuse to buy anything if I can't truly own it. However, now that I look back at the amount of money I have put into DVC and how much it has depreciated in value since my purchase I know I would have been FAR better off to have diversified my investment portfolio and placed those funds in multiple interest bearing accounts...then using the funds from matured investments to vacation whenever I wanted at any of the Deluxe resorts I choose. Unfortunately, that is not the decision I made and I cannot stomach the amount of money I will lose by selling. That is why I'm still holding on to all of my DVC contracts and will continue to do so.

If only I knew then what I know now.

Just out of curiousity, given the number of points you have, do you think DVC made you trade up and spend more than you would have had you just been spending cash on a resort hotel room?

I think DVC is a good deal, but going back to the OP, she is buying 400 points to replace one week at POR. 150 points is plenty to provide a superior vacation is a studio with points left over. So if her vacation level stays the same, DVC is a good deal. If she trades up, it might be a good deal, but she won't save.

 

[Brian Noble]

I think though if you look at a specific individual's situation, there are objective issues that play into the mix such as financial situation and method of usage.

Well, that's why I said:

There are vacation patterns and financial situations for which the answer to the second question is "no".

So, um, yeah---I agree with you.

Exchange is a tricky business. It's possible to secure DVC lodging very inexpensively that way but it is also very uncertain as the rules of the game are in constant flux, but when it works, it can be very effective. In the rent vs. own comparison, renting had been doing well over the last several years as ownership costs increased vs. relatively static rents, but the drops in resale values at a few resorts may be tipping the balance back the other way.

 

[sajetto]

Just out of curiousity, given the number of points you have, do you think DVC made you trade up and spend more than you would have had you just been spending cash on a resort hotel room?
.

I most certainly believe that DVC caused me to "trade up" so to speak. We started out at 300 points which was more than what we needed when compared to the fact that we were only going once a year for 1 week at a time back then. Then after we took our first trip in a one bedroom, we suddenly thought we just "had" to stay in a 1 Bdrm from then on. Of course one thing led to another and we decided to start going more than once a year. Long, story short all of these things we thought we just "had" to have in regards to DVC caused us to continue adding on. Now a few years later, I'm less happy with DVC's customer service than I was when I bought in and I realize that there are probably other things I should have done with the money.

To the OP, I would advise against buying 400 points to replace one week at POR. It is overkill IMO and closely mimics the exact situation my husband and I have found ourselves in.

 

[Modeltrf]

I would suggest that not every timeshare is a bad investment even if money is the main issue at hand but every retail purchase likely is. I would also suggest that some people's view and posts are far more biased than others and now where is that true more than here.

Brian, in general I would agree with you on both counts, I've made both points myself in the past. I think though if you look at a specific individual's situation, there are objective issues that play into the mix such as financial situation and method of usage. I would also suggest that it's often possible to stay at a DVC resorts and take advantage of many of the benefits of DVC and on property without owning DVC either by exchange (II in the past, RCI, private trades, independents) and by renting from an owner.

While composing I knew someone would take exception to the statement all timeshares are bad investments as I know of a few, and I do mean just a few, that you could break even on or even make some money. But I left the accurate but not precise statement of timeshares to emphasize the point. Timeshares are sold as a way to save money. That is just a sales pitch as it helps to blur the lines between emotional and rational decision making. Will you save money versus other accommodations? Yes, but you can always find a cheaper alternative. Will you want the alternative? Is the alternative equivalent or just acceptable? Will it result in more work? If so, is there really a cost saving? There are so many, many questions one could/ should ask that you might decide not to do anything out of shear fear.

The answer to the question should I buy or not is too person centered to be answered in a group setting such as this. But one can get questions answered. One can get questions they would never think of. One can get multiple view points with all the bias and pixie dust you can absorb. You can hear the stories of those who don’t want to buy and those who wish they bought sooner. You can feel the anticipation of those who practically live for their next visit while suppressing the anxiety of those who once were DVC fanatics but now have deep regret. You listen to those who forgo life’s wants, and maybe even some of life’s needs, so they can scrape the monthly payment for DVC that in the end will cost them more than the guy next door who paid cash and could have bought ten times more points without any pain. Those who are scraping the payment together are thrilled with their purchase and grateful for their Disney experience where the guy next door is often found complaining that he isn’t getting full value for his money. Yet he paid less than his neighbor.

And after each person has gotten their fill of questions answered, questions posed, the bias experiences, and all the numerous other items you can fill yourself up with then, and only then, should a decision be made. For some it might be a few days, for some it might be a few weeks, months, years. But it is a personal decision that must be made by each individual. And whether it is a yea or nay I believe we should support the person in their decision.

Well, that's why I said:

So, um, yeah---I agree with you.

Exchange is a tricky business. It's possible to secure DVC lodging very inexpensively that way but it is also very uncertain as the rules of the game are in constant flux, but when it works, it can be very effective. In the rent vs. own comparison, renting had been doing well over the last several years as ownership costs increased vs. relatively static rents, but the drops in resale values at a few resorts may be tipping the balance back the other way.

I agree with you Brian. On several occasions I attempted to exchange my timeshare, which has tremendous trading power, for DVC. I did it once but it was too much to do it again. I rented several times but found it to be a fair amount of work also. It wasn't so much work that I wouldn't do it again if I only wanted to stay on property a few times. Since I have plans to stay on property often now and in the future it just seems easier, and probably cheaper, to buy DVC

 

[Modeltrf]

I most certainly believe that DVC caused me to "trade up" so to speak. We started out at 300 points which was more than what we needed when compared to the fact that we were only going once a year for 1 week at a time back then. Then after we took our first trip in a one bedroom, we suddenly thought we just "had" to stay in a 1 Bdrm from then on. Of course one thing led to another and we decided to start going more than once a year. Long, story short all of these things we thought we just "had" to have in regards to DVC caused us to continue adding on. Now a few years later, I'm less happy with DVC's customer service than I was when I bought in and I realize that there are probably other things I should have done with the money.

I hear your arguement for DVC making you trade up. I believe most would not consider that the classic definition of the concept of causing to.

 

[dolphingirl47]

We bought 160 points at Old Key West in November 2007. Before that we only ever had stayed offsite. The reason we bought 160 points was that this would give us 2 weeks in a studio during value season at our home resort. We typically come to Orlando each year for two weeks and like to come in September. So this is a perfect fit for us. We bought in when the Pound was extremely strong against the Dollar. As we bought in November and have a December use year, we got 160 points straight away, which they let us bank and 160 points September 1st. So for the first year we had double points and we used the extra points on a cruise. So already we had a chunk of our initial outlay back. This year we are spending 4 nights at a Savannah view studio at AKV Jambo House and 5 nights at our home resort OKW. I priced the stay at AKV on the UK Disney website and for what we paid for our dues in January (higher than usual due to extremely awful exchange rate), we would not even have got our 4 nights at AKV (and I am not talking rack rates either). I am aware that we have not broken even on our initial outlay yet, but once this has happened, this is a very cost effective way to have our annual vacation. I have not used all our points either. As we are also doing a 7 night cruise (paid for in cash), we could not use all of our points. I banked 44 points into the next use year, which will be enough for our post cruise stay when we do the Westbound Transatlantic cruise next year. That means that I can bank all 2009 points, which in turn means that we can probably cruise entirely on points in 2011. For us this really is working. Yes, in previous years, we were perfectly happy staying in a motel on International Drive, but having stayed onsite at a DVC resort, we would not go back.

Corinna

 

[photobob]

I think when you compare accommodations DVC is worth the money. Trying to compare a villa to a moderate isn't an accurate comparison. We have stayed in a studio, one bdr and a two bdr depending on how many we are traveling with. The larger villas with full kitchen, w/d and plenty of lounging room make DVC more than worth the price to me. You can't get these type of amenities elsewhere onsite. You can get them pretty cheap offsite, but I want to be onsite.

 

[crisi]

I most certainly believe that DVC caused me to "trade up" so to speak. We started out at 300 points which was more than what we needed when compared to the fact that we were only going once a year for 1 week at a time back then. Then after we took our first trip in a one bedroom, we suddenly thought we just "had" to stay in a 1 Bdrm from then on. Of course one thing led to another and we decided to start going more than once a year. Long, story short all of these things we thought we just "had" to have in regards to DVC caused us to continue adding on. Now a few years later, I'm less happy with DVC's customer service than I was when I bought in and I realize that there are probably other things I should have done with the money.

To the OP, I would advise against buying 400 points to replace one week at POR. It is overkill IMO and closely mimics the exact situation my husband and I have found ourselves in.

That's a common trap - and I think more common for DISBoard DVCers than the general public. We have a lot of people here (myself included) who think the value in DVC for them is in multi room units - and those of us with strong opinions often tend to leave off the "for us" part of these conversations. Around here it sounds like EVERYONE is adding on and has more than the minimum points, and goes to Disney multiple times per year. And it can be really easy to think that if "MickeyDad" thinks buying at BLT is a great idea and taking a trip just for Food and Wine is the best thing ever, that maybe you should too.

And so many people here will encourage more points. How many threads on "how many points should I buy" tell potential DVCers "more than you think!" or that addons are inevitible?

 

[Brian Noble]

I rented several times but found it to be a fair amount of work also. It wasn't so much work that I wouldn't do it again if I only wanted to stay on property a few times.

This is a good point, and often overlooked. I started out my Disney "life" by renting privately-owned pool homes. This is absolutely the best deal you can possibly get in the WDW area in terms of space+amenities/dollar, hands down, no question. Not only a private kitchen and washer/dryer, but a private hot tub and a private pool, all for about $100 a night. It's great.

It's also a hassle, because the marketplace for such homes is not very well developed. It took several half-days each time to arrange things, because either the last place was under new ownership, or we needed something different with a larger or smaller travel party, you need to go back and forth with each person you consider with extra questions, etc. etc. etc.

It was this experience that led me to my first timeshare purchase, a resale with Wyndham, for inexpensive access to Bonnet Creek. I didn't do it to save money---it actually costs more even as a resale owner to stay at Bonnet Creek than to rent a larger/better-equipped/almost-as-well-located private home. I did it because it was easier.

Since then, of course, I've spent vastly more time in this hobby of timesharing than I ever did looking for rental homes. And, given my hourly consulting rate, I would have been MUCH MUCH better off financially just buying a big DVC contract from the developer and using all the time I saved on billable work. So, in my heart of hearts, I know that nothing I'm doing is all that rational either.

But, it's a hobby, and that's fun---it has its own set of intangible rewards.

 

[Brian Noble]

That's a common trap ... We have a lot of people here (myself included) who think the value in DVC for them is in multi room units

It's a common trap not just here at DISboards, but of timesharing generally. We are to the point where anything less than a full 2BR for the four of us is viewed as a hardship. We could do a 1BR, but we'd consider it a squeeze, and right now "in a 2BR" is more important to us than "in a Disney resort," all other things being equal.

A studio or a mere hotel room? One night. Maybe two. Tops.

 

[Modeltrf]

That's a common trap - and I think more common for DISBoard DVCers than the general public. We have a lot of people here (myself included) who think the value in DVC for them is in multi room units - and those of us with strong opinions often tend to leave off the "for us" part of these conversations. Around here it sounds like EVERYONE is adding on and has more than the minimum points, and goes to Disney multiple times per year. And it can be really easy to think that if "MickeyDad" thinks buying at BLT is a great idea and taking a trip just for Food and Wine is the best thing ever, that maybe you should too.

And so many people here will encourage more points. How many threads on "how many points should I buy" tell potential DVCers "more than you think!" or that addons are inevitible?

Amen! (I imply nothing religious about amen)

I have friends (non-DISers) who have added on over the years so I knew what it meant before I purchased DVC. So my wife and I are discussing how much and/ or how little we should purchase for our needs both now and in the future. We, especially me, wanted to avoid adding on. I stated numerous times during our conversation that we will never, never add on. Let's get what we want now and leave it alone.

I was comfortable with our decision for quite some time. But then I found these boards and WHAM! I start feeling the need to add on, buy more, rent points, blah blah blah. These boards are useful and dangerous.

Don't get me wrong, I can afford more points. I feel it's not a matter of financial difficulty, it's a matter of balance. It is too easy to get unbalanced. Too easy to get greedy. Please don't take offense if you are thinking of adding on. There is nothing wrong with it. But for me, it feels like I am being greedy. So a little is good therefore more must be even better? That, to me, is dangerous.

 

[Modeltrf]

This is a good point, and often overlooked. I started out my Disney "life" by renting privately-owned pool homes. This is absolutely the best deal you can possibly get in the WDW area in terms of space+amenities/dollar, hands down, no question. Not only a private kitchen and washer/dryer, but a private hot tub and a private pool, all for about $100 a night. It's great.

It's also a hassle, because the marketplace for such homes is not very well developed. It took several half-days each time to arrange things, because either the last place was under new ownership, or we needed something different with a larger or smaller travel party, you need to go back and forth with each person you consider with extra questions, etc. etc. etc.

It was this experience that led me to my first timeshare purchase, a resale with Wyndham, for inexpensive access to Bonnet Creek. I didn't do it to save money---it actually costs more even as a resale owner to stay at Bonnet Creek than to rent a larger/better-equipped/almost-as-well-located private home. I did it because it was easier.

Since then, of course, I've spent vastly more time in this hobby of timesharing than I ever did looking for rental homes. And, given my hourly consulting rate, I would have been MUCH MUCH better off financially just buying a big DVC contract from the developer and using all the time I saved on billable work. So, in my heart of hearts, I know that nothing I'm doing is all that rational either.

But, it's a hobby, and that's fun---it has its own set of intangible rewards.

I agree.

As you are probably aware, there are a couple of ways of connecting our rate of pay for employment with what we would pay ourselves for our hobbies, interests, recreation and such. If you took a conservative number of 1/4 your hourly rate many people would realize some 'bargains' are no bargains at all.

Of course some people consider it a hobby to save money and there is nothing wrong with that!

 

[Brian Noble]

When you have a salary, with well defined working hours, it's not often obvious what an hour of your time is "worth". When you have a client that you bill (or not) when you work (or don't), all on your own time, suddenly it becomes painfully obvious. Both my wife and I have income that comes from billable time, and it took us a while to give ourselves permission to take vacations. For us, the "primary cost" of vacation is not the travel, the lodging, or even the entertainment costs. The primary cost is the time we cannot bill for, by a long shot.

 

[Dean]

I agree with you Brian. On several occasions I attempted to exchange my timeshare, which has tremendous trading power, for DVC. I did it once but it was too much to do it again. I rented several times but found it to be a fair amount of work also. It wasn't so much work that I wouldn't do it again if I only wanted to stay on property a few times. Since I have plans to stay on property often now and in the future it just seems easier, and probably cheaper, to buy DVC

In 6.5 years I've had 24 exchanges in for 1 and 2 BR units. It's been easier with RCI so far than it was with II but that may be an anomaly of the newness, time will tell. Certainly these were mostly for off season times but Jan, May, mid summer, Sept, Oct and early Dec are all represented. There's definitely uncertainty and risk involved but a 1 or 2 BR DVC units for effectively a few hundred dollars is a very high return. To the point where I've considered selling everything except one 25 points contract just to keep the perks and doing all stays as cash on discount or exchanges other than a night or two here and there. So High risk yes but potentially high return as well even if only partially successful. Worst case scenario is you buy something relatively cheap and give it away later if need be.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

Dean, I think it's safe to say you are a diehard Marriotts Man. I am curious about your recent Bluegreen purchases and what they bring to the table that DVC does not?

IMO, the best ways to do this are to look at where you want to go, how flexible you are, realize how good you are at planning ahead, figure what unit size you'll generally need and where you usually, gauge your gambling mentality as for waiting on the match to come through and make a determination as to your expectations. Some people are resort oriented and some are destination oriented with most people in between. My guess is that most DVC members have high expectations on both sides of the equation as I do. Timeshares are not for everyone but they are all different and what is best for one is not best for the next. I generally say to spend 6 months of investigation to determine what is best for you, if anything.

Thank you for your post. Unfortunately some don't share your views on my evenhandedness, or lack of as some would say, and that is the reason I responded as I did. My goal is always to share without making it personal, I think I'm pretty successful in that goal most of the time. However, there is no way to totally separate the two in every situation. If I say I hate X car and say no one should buy it and you just bought one yesterday, then you see the dilemma. Same with a given DVC resort, if I hate one (or more specifically, think there are better timeshares for a given situation) that you own or is your favorite, you could take it personally if you chose, and many do (again, like insulting their family member). OTOH, I have little patience for the whining, esp for things that are clearly spelled out in the legal documentation. The reallocation and reservation system changes come to mind. Same for the free DDP threads where it's OK to ask but unreasonable to complain about it because it shows a lack of understanding of the system.

 

[Dean]

Dean, I think it's safe to say you are a diehard Marriotts Man. I am curious about your recent Bluegreen purchases and what they bring to the table that DVC does not?

Yes and no. Like DVC, Marriott has great resorts and they tend to have them in places that I want to go plus they are a reputable company. They also have a very workable internal trading system. I've owned at BG resorts for over 10 years but only converted to their points system 3 years ago. BG fills a niche with us as a supplement to our Marriott and DVC options and now, to help with trading in to DVC. In many ways their points system works better and is more flexible than is DVC's for our situation. Each thing I own gives me additional options and more overall flexibility. Given this is a DVC related site and I'm not really comparing or referencing the other options as it relates to DVC, I'll stop there. Feel free to contact me directly if you like.

 

[Modeltrf]

In 6.5 years I've had 24 exchanges in for 1 and 2 BR units. It's been easier with RCI so far than it was with II but that may be an anomaly of the newness, time will tell. Certainly these were mostly for off season times but Jan, May, mid summer, Sept, Oct and early Dec are all represented. There's definitely uncertainty and risk involved but a 1 or 2 BR DVC units for effectively a few hundred dollars is a very high return. To the point where I've considered selling everything except one 25 points contract just to keep the perks and doing all stays as cash on discount or exchanges other than a night or two here and there. So High risk yes but potentially high return as well even if only partially successful. Worst case scenario is you buy something relatively cheap and give it away later if need be.

Without a doubt you are getting a high rate of return!

I believe it may take someone who has your considerable skills to replicate a DVC 1 or 2 bedroom trade for a couple of hundred dollars. I prefer to place my money on a more certain outcome. An outcome where there is a greater likelihood I will get what I want.

 

[Dean]

Without a doubt you are getting a high rate of return!

I believe it may take someone who has your considerable skills to replicate a DVC 1 or 2 bedroom trade for a couple of hundred dollars. I prefer to place my money on a more certain outcome. An outcome where there is a greater likelihood I will get what I want.

I think you over estimate the risk and difficulty involved but there certainly are no guarantees. One approach is to use points to reserve then try to an exchange. If you get it, cancel or modify the points reservation.

 

[Modeltrf]

I think you over estimate the risk and difficulty involved but there certainly are no guarantees. One approach is to use points to reserve then try to an exchange. If you get it, cancel or modify the points reservation.

Perhaps it is as easy as you say. What is the average time you need to invest to make all of these transactions happen? Have you had any trades go bad? If not, what do you do to protect yourself?

This is not the grand inquisition. Just curious.