Murdered Brooklyn boy

[dandave]

Did you already forget the examples you gave? Nancy Garrido is the wife of Phillip Garrido, who KIDNAPPED Jaycee Dugard. They didn't kill anybody.

The moms of the girls married to Warren Jeffs didn't kidnap anybody. That would be considered rape of the 12 yr old girl but nobody died there either.

You are trying to compare Apples to Oranges.

Wanda Ileen Barzee was THE WIFE of someone.

You still haven't given any names of women who are child murderers who snatched kids, raped or otherwise, then killed and dumped the kids.

If you are having trouble comprehending my posts I doubt it has anything to do with my intelligence. I wasn't actually referring to me. I could care less what you think of me. I was referring to you implying that someone who would look at Wiki for info must be stupid.

Your defensiveness doesn't bother me. Just makes me real curious WHY you are so defensive of child rapists and murderers.



You seem to want it really badly to not be true that most of these murders are committed by men but no matter how many times you click your heels together, the facts remain the same. You wanting it to be different won't make it any different.

Nancy Garrido filmed and photographed, by her own admission, many children for Phillip's pleasure. She helped Phillip look for children that met his tastes. She helped Phillip repeatedly rape, hold captive, and hide Jaycee.
The women of the FLDS held children down, while they were raped. That makes them accomplices to rape.
Wanda Ileen Barzee held Elizabeth Smart down, while her husband repeatedly raped that child. Barzee did nothing to help Elizabeth escape.

You're suspicious of me, are you? Because I'm a big, bad, nasty man??? You think I just want to see all the children's naughty bits, do you?

I understand you are a man and you want to get defensive about men killers, but you are just going to have to be defensive and upset because facts are facts.

I'm a woman. I have been since birth, and I haved raised two beautiful sons with my husband of over 20 years.

And here ya go! Knock yourself out! But if you want anymore, then find them yourself.
Mona Nelson
http://www.khou.com/news/crime/Quan...apping-death-did-not-act-alone-112823039.html

 

[TDC Nala]

I think we've got some posters here who are stating no female, totally unacquainted with the victim, acting alone without the influence of a man, will ever abduct a child off the street and kill them.

You can't really say it will never happen.

Of course the odds of such a perpetrator being male are much higher than for a female. Although they are not absolute zero. If you're talking about narrowing the odds that a kid is talking to a potential murderer (which aren't high to start with) then yes, tell them to talk to women. Better yet tell them to approach women with children. That's not saying all men or even most men are potential child murderers, and it's probably best done without teaching children to fear males.

How about looking up Mary Bell? Although that's going to be looked at as not fitting the bill because she was a child herself.

 

[myheartlivesatwdw]

IIRC, Adam was placed outside the Sears store by the security guard.

I think that is what they mean- he was asked to leave the store.

**

This case has haunted me. I cannot imagine. RIP Leiby.

Yes, Adam was outside.

 

[dandave]

"intuition is always right in at least two important ways;
It is always in response to something.
it always has your best interest at heart"
— Gavin de Becker (The Gift of Fear: Survival Signals That Protect Us from Violence)

Apparently not. Leibby's intuition lead him to Levi.

 

[JenM]

Adam Walsh was abducted from INSIDE a Sears store at the Hollywood mall in Hollywood Florida. His mom was just a few isles away. He was standing inside the store playing a video game. He was not put outside.

Yes he was. Adam and several other boys were sent out of the Sears store by a security guard because the older boys had started fighting over the video game controller. The guard assumed all of the boys were there together and kicked them all out.

The older boys walked off, but Adam and an 8-year-old were then alone outside the store, thinking they weren't allowed back in. The 8-year-old's mother and sister found them, and that boy asked if they could wait with Adam until his mother came so he wouldn't be alone. But by then, another adult was speaking to Adam. The boy's mother assumed that was Adam's father, and they left.

Another guy waiting for a parking space to open also witnessed this (he saw the woman with the other two children and figured Adam was her child as well) and he saw this person walk Adam to his car. He opened the driver's side door and Adam got in. There were no signs of a struggle, so he thought everything was OK. By the time this guy had pulled into the parking space he was waiting for, he looked back and the car was gone.

The Sears security guard was a teenage girl who was just starting the job. When Adam's mother showed her his picture and asked if she had seen him, she lied and said no because she was afraid of losing her job. She later came forward and admitted that she had, in fact, sent Adam out of the store.

I got all of this from a book called "Bringing Adam Home" which was just published this year, and it's about how they finally managed to close that case. It's an infuriating book to read, but it definitely made the case clear that they found his killer.

Adam Walsh was most definitely kicked out of the store, which is why he wound up getting kidnapped.

 

[JenM]

NYC is big, but it is not as scary as you seem to think. It is among the safest big cities in America. A few years ago, the FBI stats indicated that a person was at greater risk of being a victim of violent crime in Des Moines than in NYC.

Many horrible things happen in small towns and rural communities. I think that the liklihood of a child being snatched off the streets is much less in NYC than a smaller town because of the number of people around. This tragedy with Lieby happened because he willingly accompanied a predator thinking that he could trust another Jew.

Agreed. I've worked in NY for 15 years, I see young kids taking buses and subways, and navigating streets on their own without incident. How else do they get to school? This whole thing is horrific, but this not the norm for every child who walks down a street in NY. We don't have serial killers and predators on every street corner.

I live in the suburbs, and I found out earlier tonight that a dead body was found in the trunk of a car near a lake where I usually ride my bike. So that kind of stuff can happen anywhere.

This poor thing just asked the wrong person for directions, unfortunately.

 

[DisneyLoverUSA]

Yes he was. Adam and several other boys were sent out of the Sears store by a security guard because the older boys had started fighting over the video game controller. The guard assumed all of the boys were there together and kicked them all out.

The older boys walked off, but Adam and an 8-year-old were then alone outside the store, thinking they weren't allowed back in. The 8-year-old's mother and sister found them, and that boy asked if they could wait with Adam until his mother came so he wouldn't be alone. But by then, another adult was speaking to Adam. The boy's mother assumed that was Adam's father, and they left.

Another guy waiting for a parking space to open also witnessed this (he saw the woman with the other two children and figured Adam was her child as well) and he saw this person walk Adam to his car. He opened the driver's side door and Adam got in. There were no signs of a struggle, so he thought everything was OK. By the time this guy had pulled into the parking space he was waiting for, he looked back and the car was gone.

The Sears security guard was a teenage girl who was just starting the job. When Adam's mother showed her his picture and asked if she had seen him, she lied and said no because she was afraid of losing her job. She later came forward and admitted that she had, in fact, sent Adam out of the store.

I got all of this from a book called "Bringing Adam Home" which was just published this year, and it's about how they finally managed to close that case. It's an infuriating book to read, but it definitely made the case clear that they found his killer.

Adam Walsh was most definitely kicked out of the store, which is why he wound up getting kidnapped.

Did they close the case with Ottis Toole as the killer? Ottis was a CLAIMED serial killer who took credit for killing Adam and then took it back and said he really didn't do it. He said the cops fed him bits and pieces of the story and even drove him to the canal where they found Adam's head and suggested to him that this was where he dumped Adam's head. Ottis Toole claimed to have killed 125 ppl. After watching a BIO documentary on him a few weeks ago I have my doubts that he had anything to do with Adam's death. He and his killing partner ended up claiming credit for over 300 killings that cops now believ they really didn't have anything to do with it. They have documents showing the two weren't even in most of the states at the time the killings took place and were just claiming credit to get more publicity for themselves.
I haven't read the book you speak of or even know if it is Ottis Toole they are saying killed Adam. Just going by what I saw on TV. Which is just as reliable as any book somebody wrote I guess. It's all speculation really. Nobody knows for sure who really killed Adam since Toole recanted.

 

[JenM]

Did they close the case with Ottis Toole as the killer? Ottis was a CLAIMED serial killer who took credit for killing Adam and then took it back and said he really didn't do it. He said the cops fed him bits and pieces of the story and even drove him to the canal where they found Adam's head and suggested to him that this was where he dumped Adam's head. Ottis Toole claimed to have killed 125 ppl. After watching a BIO documentary on him a few weeks ago I have my doubts that he had anything to do with Adam's death. He and his killing partner ended up claiming credit for over 300 killings that cops now believ they really didn't have anything to do with it. They have documents showing the two weren't even in most of the states at the time the killings took place and were just claiming credit to get more publicity for themselves.
I haven't read the book you speak of or even know if it is Ottis Toole they are saying killed Adam. Just going by what I saw on TV. Which is just as reliable as any book somebody wrote I guess. It's all speculation really. Nobody knows for sure who really killed Adam since Toole recanted.

If you really want more info on this - you need to read this book. It's written with the detective who worked on the case since Adam went missing, and who was hired as a cold case detective by the Walshes in 2006 to review all 10,000 pages of evidence in the case.

A few notes:

Ottis Toole was a convincted serial killer. He was convicted in the murder of a man who he killed in an arson fire, and he was convicted of murder in the cases of several women who were murdered by Henry Lee Lucas, the serial killer he partnered with for a number of years. He was already in jail for the arson murder when he mentioned to a detective investigating the murder of these women that he had killed a boy in Broward County. He confessed to killing Adam more than 20 times.

The detective who was accused of feeding Toole information had never even heard of the Adam Walsh case, he had to ask detectives who were already there to interview Toole what he was talking about. They contacted the Hollywood Police - who didn't call back for a week. The detective in charge of Adam's case was convinced that a family friend had killed Adam (even though this person had a solid alibi, had passed 2 polygraph tests, and the police had no evidence on this guy whatsoever), and reportedly lied about this detective feeding anyone info about the Walsh case. He was eventually demoted.

Toole was not driven to the canal and fed information. In fact, the police took him to two wrong Sears stores first to see if he would point out that they were in the wrong place, which he did. He even laughed about a wrong turn they took on purpose, saying he'd done the same thing. He took them right to the area in the parking lot where Adam was last seen, the spot where he was decapitated, and the exact spot where he tossed Adam's head into the canal.

According to his numerous confessions, Toole beat Adam in the stomach and face, then strangled him before he was decaptitated. He said he placed Adam face-down when he did that. In the autopsy report, Adam had bruises all over his face, as well as a broken nose, blood vessels in his eyes were burst (consistant with a strangulation), and the cuts on his head suggested that he was face down when he head was chopped off.

Toole reportedly tried to snatch a little girl from Kmart two days before Adam disappeared. The description of the car he was driving matches the description of the witness at the mall, right down to the dent on the rear bumper. The girl and her mother have both identified Toole as the man who tried to snatch her that night - in fact, when Toole's photo appeared in the newspaper as the Adam Walsh suspect, the little girl ran to her mother hysterical with a copy of the paper, crying that it was "the man from the store."

The car was no longer Toole's, but he did have access to it that weekend. He said he got rid of the carpet because it was stained with blood...the owner of the car said when she finally sold it that she had noticed the carpet in the trunk was missing.

5 rolls of film had been taken of the car when it was impounded by police. Those photos were never developed - they sat in a crime lab as negatives for more than 20 years. There were pictures of parts of the car treated in Luminol (which lets you see blood stains). When this detective finally found the photos, they wound Luminol-treated photos of: bloody shoeprints on the driver's side carpet and pedals (Toole said he had gotten Adam's blood all over his shoes).

And the most damning of all: on the rear driver's side carpet (where in Toole's many confessions, he claimed to have tossed Adam's severed head), was very clearly a bloody imprint of a child's face.

That photo was also shown to the Walshes, who did identifiy it as Adam's.

There was a criminal amount of police ineptitude in that case, particularly from this one detective who was later demoted, but it makes the case very, very clear...it was Ottis Toole.

 

[Imzadi]

The older boys walked off, but Adam and an 8-year-old were then alone outside the store, thinking they weren't allowed back in. The 8-year-old's mother and sister found them, and that boy asked if they could wait with Adam until his mother came so he wouldn't be alone. But by then, another adult was speaking to Adam. The boy's mother assumed that was Adam's father, and they left.

Another guy waiting for a parking space to open also witnessed this (he saw the woman with the other two children and figured Adam was her child as well) and he saw this person walk Adam to his car. He opened the driver's side door and Adam got in. There were no signs of a struggle, so he thought everything was OK. By the time this guy had pulled into the parking space he was waiting for, he looked back and the car was gone.

Ottis Toole was a convicted serial killer.

The Adam Walsh case was such a sad, sad incident. Two adults' intuition went off, certainly enough that they paid enough attention to have been documented for the case. Only, they had misread the situation of Ottis Toole meeting Adam, and hadn't been trained on how to better act on their intuition.

In the case of the mother, she could have gone over to ask, "Who are you to this little boy? His father??? Really? Little boy, (Adam) is that right? Do you know this man? Is he your father?"

In the case of the man in the car, to far away for questioning, he might have been able to take an extra moment to jot down the license plate. And maybe report it to the store's security, that he thought he saw something hinky he isn't sure about. But, he wanted to act on his intuition and report it, just in case.

In NYC now, Counter-Terrorism has been training the public with, "If you see something, SAY something," in the event of witnessing what might be a suspicious terrorist bomb event. The foiled car bombing was because someone reported what he saw. ) With today's Amber Alert system in place, finding an abducted child with info on the car has made finding them much faster & easier.

Ottis Toole was a SERIAL killer, so of course he knew to swoop in immediately when he saw an opportunity present itself.

Poor little Adam, at 6 years old, like little Leiby at 8, were too young and unskilled to even know how to sort through ALL their overwhelming panic & fears of being lost, separated from their moms and feeling alone, to the intuition of yet another fear of meeting their killers. They were too young and untrained to be able to distinguish, "Oh wait, THIS fear is a new one and specific to meeting this man." They just knew some seemingly calm man (not someone grabby,) said they would help them and the relief of hearing that probably overrode any other thoughts & feelings they had. They were too young to know not to believe them. Or what to do if they didn't.

Plus, neither mother had a second chance to teach the children what to do in those instances. Leiby's mom never got a second chance to say, "The next time you get lost, you ARE going to feel panic, do this. . ." And in Adam's case, an adult to him (the 16 yr old employee,) ordered him to leave the store. That threw in a totally different wrench.

 

[cornflake]

NYC is big, but it is not as scary as you seem to think. It is among the safest big cities in America. A few years ago, the FBI stats indicated that a person was at greater risk of being a victim of violent crime in Des Moines than in NYC.

New York City is actually THE safest large city in America and has been for years and years. As well, yes, kids that age walk the streets on their own all the time.

If parents in NYC wouldn't let kids walk or ride the bus or subway alone until they were teenagers, a lot of kids wouldn't be getting to school!

Imzaldi, Women can be and have been pedophiles. Women can be and have been murderers. Women can be and have been serial killers. Those are facts. To say otherwise is ignorance. Their numbers do not reach those of men, but evil women have and do exist. If you want to argue that point, which is the point I clearly made here, then go for it!

Women indeed murder people. Female serial killers that we know of number, arguably at that, one. There may be others operating currently or who did operate successfully and were not caught but from what we know, they're not a factor.

Every adult woman who sleeps with a boy is a pedophile. Many, many women fall into that category. It makes them child molesters. Society's views seem to be a bit skewed on that front.

The first sentence is completely untrue. As untrue as classifying any man who sleeps with an underage girl as a pedophile. It does make them child molesters, but not pedophiles. The number of female pedophiles is hard to quantify, as there are not really studies, as they appear to be insanely rare and people don't try to pick them out because... rare.

 

[dandave]

Leiby's mom never got a second chance to say, "The next time you get lost, you ARE going to feel panic, do this. . ."

You are completely ignoring the most important fact in this case. Leibby Kletsky was a Hasidic boy! He did exactly what he was taught to do. He sought help from a Jewish man. His parents taught him that, and that's what he did. They never, ever, would have taught him anything different, no matter how long he lived or how old he was! It's cultural!

 

[dandave]

The first sentence is completely untrue. As untrue as classifying any man who sleeps with an underage girl as a pedophile. It does make them child molesters, but not pedophiles. The number of female pedophiles is hard to quantify, as there are not really studies, as they appear to be insanely rare and people don't try to pick them out because... rare.

Yes, a pedophile is one who loves children. If you're an adult having sex with a minor, then you are a child molester but maybe not a pedophile. A pedophile is one with a psychological draw to children. You're right.

 

[cornflake]

You are completely ignoring the most important fact in this case. Leibby Kletsky was a Hasidic boy! He did exactly what he was taught to do. He sought help from a Jewish man. His parents taught him that, and that's what he did. They never, ever, would have taught him anything different, no matter how long he lived or how old he was! It's cultural!

There's no cultural chasidic prohibition against teaching a kid to find a woman if they're lost. They didn't think about it, clearly, but they certainly could have done so. It's an insular community but it's not Waco, they live among us!

There's also no reason to assume they taught him to seek help from a Jewish man. He could have done that on his own or just gone to the first person he saw who engaged him.

 

[dandave]

There's no cultural chasidic prohibition against teaching a kid to find a woman if they're lost. They didn't think about it, clearly, but they certainly could have done so. It's an insular community but it's not Waco, they live among us!

They don't even trust our police force. They have their own volunteers, because the Hasidic Jews in that neighborhood are very much in and of themselves. They never would have thought to teach their son fear of a Jewish man.

 

[cornflake]

They don't even trust our police force. They have their own volunteers, because the Hasidic Jews in that neighborhood are very much in and of themselves. They never would have thought to teach their son fear of a Jewish man.

I don't know that the two first sentences connect. Yes, they have volunteers in the community, same as many communities that aren't at all insular. I don't get where that equates to they don't trust the police.

Also, they don't have to have taught him to fear Jewish men, what's that got to do with anything? They, same as anyone with their kids, could have taught him to seek a woman without suggesting he fear Jewish men.

Fearing Jewish men is like 'stranger danger' it's nonsensical and doesn't work.

 

[dandave]

"• There was approximately a 2 hour delay from the time parents called Shomrim until Shomrim called police."
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/fa...olice-statement-on-leibby-kletzky-murder.html

"Someone close to the shomrim, a neighborhood watch group for the Hasidic Jewish community in Brooklyn, told The Daily that Aron was accused of stalking an 11-year-old boy, who noticed a gold car -- thought to be Aron's 1990 Honda -- following him home. Police may not have been notified, said one shomrim volunteer, because the "majority of Jews here are from Eastern European descent, and they have an ingrained lack of trust with authority," he said. "Everyone is taught to go to the shomrim, and not the police because they identify more with us so we fill the gap."
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/07/levi_aron_leiby_kletzky_murder_debbie_kivel.php

A Borough Park resident and businessman, who gave his name only as Ephraim and is a father of eight, had joined in the volunteer search efforts of the past two days. He called the tragedy, "A double murder - one was the child, and the other is the image of a Jew."
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new_york/missing_chasidic_boy_found_murdered

 

[Imzadi]

Women indeed murder people. Female serial killers that we know of number, arguably at that, one. There may be others operating currently or who did operate successfully and were not caught but from what we know, they're not a factor.

Cornflake, you snipped a quote responding to something someone mistook I said. I NEVER said there are no women murderers. In fact, I quoted the FBI statistics that women make up 7% of all murderers. So even if someone comes up with the name of a couple of female murderers who fit the profile, they are already factored into that 7%. Even if a new murder happens tomorrow, the percentage isn't really going to jump up to like 50%. It will probably be like 7.25%.

PLUS, that statistic compares the number of women murderers to male murderers. It does NOT say what is the percentage of female murderers in relation to the TOTAL population of women in the U.S. That could be like 2%. But, each person needs to do what they want to protect their children.

Here is the quote AGAIN listing the FBI 7% statistic and the source, provided so you can check it yourself. This thread is just going round & round in circles as I keep repeating information I already said on pages 2 and 6. I'm out of here. Have fun going round & round on this.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/12/national/main4937253.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_4937253


[Snipping relevant parts & bolding & emphasis mine:]

Police and residents in Tracy responded with shock when the suspect in the murder of a young girl turned out to be a woman, the mother of the slain girl's best friend. . .

"This was an anomaly in the murder of a child," police Sgt. Tony Sheneman said at a news conference Saturday. "Finding out that it is a woman who is responsible for Sandra's kidnapping and murder, and then finding out it is a member of the community is another blow."

FBI statistics show women are involved in just 7 percent of murders of any sort. Solo killings of children by women are even more unusual.

"A review of data from the 2007 Uniform Crime Report confirms that the arrest of Melissa Huckaby in the Sandra Cantu murder investigation is uncommon," said FBI spokesman Steve Dupre in Sacramento.

"It's very unusual for women to be involved in an abduction and murder of a child," said Candice DeLong, a retired FBI profiler based in San Francisco. "Sometimes we see this when the woman is working with a male partner. It does not appear to be the case this time. But this was not a sexually motivated crime."

 

[dandave]

Cornflake, you snipped a quote responding to something someone mistook I said.

If you are referring to me as your "someone," then you couldn't be further off base. I hadn't even noticed your posts. I skimmed this thread, and everything was cell phone, cell phone, cell phone.
I quoted and was speaking directly to DisneyLoverUSA's post, when you got all hot and bothered and jumped in. Your posts were not even interesting enough to have drawn my attention, Imzaldi.

 

[dandave]

And here is "The Daily" article, from which the blog in that second link above took it's quote.

http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/07/15/071511-news-missing-boy-1-4/

“It was unclear if police had been informed about the earlier incident. When asked by the Daily about it, Yankel Daskel, one of the head shomrim coordinators in the neighborhood of Borough Park, said the community has a problem with filing police reports.

This specific case I am not familiar with, but this does happen often and we do the best we can to service the community,” said Daskel, who has been volunteering for shomrim for more than 26 years. “You need to remember that we are only volunteers. We patrol the neighborhood, and while we encourage everyone to file a police report when something happens, we can’t make them do anything.”

Binyomin Lif****z, a shomrim volunteer from a neighboring community, spent the last two days combing the streets for Leiby. He said the Hasidic community tends to trust only in the shomrim for policing protection.

The “majority of Jews here are from Eastern European descent, and they have an ingrained lack of trust with authority,” Lif****z said. “Everyone is taught to go to the shomrim, and not the police because they identify more with us so we fill the gap.”

 

[cornflake]

Cornflake, you snipped a quote responding to something someone mistook I said. I NEVER said there are no women murderers.

Did you read my post? I was talking to the person I quoted, who was responding to you. I agree with you. Though the UCR is notoriously tetchy in terms of mining for statistical data.

"• There was approximately a 2 hour delay from the time parents called Shomrim until Shomrim called police."
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/fai...ky-murder.html

"Someone close to the shomrim, a neighborhood watch group for the Hasidic Jewish community in Brooklyn, told The Daily that Aron was accused of stalking an 11-year-old boy, who noticed a gold car -- thought to be Aron's 1990 Honda -- following him home. Police may not have been notified, said one shomrim volunteer, because the "majority of Jews here are from Eastern European descent, and they have an ingrained lack of trust with authority," he said. "Everyone is taught to go to the shomrim, and not the police because they identify more with us so we fill the gap."
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runnin...bbie_kivel.php

A Borough Park resident and businessman, who gave his name only as Ephraim and is a father of eight, had joined in the volunteer search efforts of the past two days. He called the tragedy, "A double murder - one was the child, and the other is the image of a Jew."
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/ne...found_murdered

The last has nothing to do with the issue we're discussing, the first I don't see having any relation to not trusting the police. They didn't know what happened, they called the local volunteers, same as someone might call their community guard if they think their kid is just messing around at the pool at the rec center and etc.

As for the middle - I don't think that's "not trusting the police" particularly either. The quote you pulled talks about not trusting authority in a general sense and that people go to their community volunteers first. People will ask a Guardian Angel first too, doesn't mean they don't trust the police, necessarily, it could mean the cops are busy, the GA is there and eager to help and know the people and neighbourhood better than whichever cop may respond if you call. I'm not saying it's not possible they in particular don't trust the police, I'm saying that I don't at ALL think it's some function of the community that in general they don't trust the cops, any more than people in areas with a community watch or GA don't trust the cops.

Cops like those groups, because they do fill in where the cops can't always be, and know what the cops don't, because the volunteers are there all the time and know the people.