*~* Muggles, Welcome to the Burrow! *~*

[Poohnatic]

We joined the party late, a daycare provider had our sons watch the first movie and they were fascinated. Sooooo, we bought the first movie, then all the books (It was right before OOtP came out). Goblet is the first movie we saw in the theatres. We give the edge to the books in this house, and have two or three copies of each (older son has read them so much the bindings are coming apart).

I need to catch up on this thread, just read the first page so far.

As far as characters:
Agree with those who feel that Snape is a tortured individual and isn't quite good or evil. The optimist in me feels that good will win him over. I feel as though he's extremely jealous of Harry for the powers he does have and will develop, and that colors all interaction with Harry.

Suzanne

 

[va32h]

First, off, I never get tired of talking about HP, so this may be a dangerous thread for me. Well - I've already shown that in my first post.

I think that all the HP characters show human flaws - Snape is a little more than the garden variety hey-nobody's-perfect range of flaws though. We are all capable of being truly evil, I think Snape has gone farther to the edge of that...and was genuinely apalled at himself.

I do not think Snape ever loved Lily, though. First, JKR said herself that Snape has never loved anyone.

Second love requires a certain amount of bravery, a willingness to get hurt. While Snape is brave in many respects - it's tremendously brave to be a double agent, which is why Snape was so outraged when Harry called him a coward, for example - but when it comes to putting his feelings on the line (to be trite) Snape is indeed a coward. He has contempt for those who are ruled by emotion, who let their love for other people motivate them.

Third, it would just be too conventional to pair everybody off. "Snape motivated by love for Lily" is a Lifetime Movie Network ending, whereas JKR is writing a Masterpiece Theater story.

Finally, romantic love is not the kind of love that JKR focuses on in her story. The whole thing was set in motion by a mother's love for her son. When characters talk about Harry's parents, the focus is on their love for him far more than their love for each other.

Even though HBP featured tons of "romantic" love, the pivotal moments involved a character (Dumbledore) that everyone loved in a non-romantic sense.

"Love" is the answer, Dumbledore said it himself (and you know that for sure ) but it won't be romantic love that vanquishes Voldemort and saves the wizarding world. It will be Harry's love for his friends and his parents, and their love for him. Not sure about the precise details of course...

But at the end of HBP, we have a Harry full of vengeance, which is not what we expect from Harry. I think that Harry will have to forgive Snape in order to conquer Voldemort, and that will be his greatest challenge in Deathly Hallows.

Voldemort is the enemy is the largest sense, but in many ways he is a nebulous "shadow of evil". He's the motivation behind the dangers in every book, and yet the real challenge hasn't been in facing him, but in something that comes before the confrontation.

 

[UnderTheMistletoe]

First, off, I never get tired of talking about HP, so this may be a dangerous thread for me. Well - I've already shown that in my first post.

I think that all the HP characters show human flaws - Snape is a little more than the garden variety hey-nobody's-perfect range of flaws though. We are all capable of being truly evil, I think Snape has gone farther to the edge of that...and was genuinely apalled at himself. . .. . . . . . .

These are excellent, excellent points! I especially agree about the theme of love. Id' never really thought about it and how much it is woven into the books- all of them. And, as you said, it is a much deeper, committed kind of love than Won-Won and Lavendar (who've I've never been able to stand!).

Look at the relationships (and there will only be a few here), you are right on point:

Harry-Ron-Hermione
Harry-James-Lily
Harry-Dumbledore
Draco-Narcissa-Lucius
McGonagall-Dumbledore
Hagrid-Harry-Ron-Hermione (although very much Harry)
Sirius-Harry
Mrs. Weasley-Harry-Weasly family even Percy! (think about her boggart)
Petunia-Harry-Dumbledore
Harry-Cedric
Fleur-Bill

We've seen several times that the romantic love just doesn't last and isn't a strong foundation- that there has to be more.

Won-Won and Lavendar tanked
Hermione and Krum were never really anything more than, "Physical"
Harry and Cho ended terribly

I think JKR is definitely making an appeal to our sensibilities and concept of love. It is not a happily ever after story. I think you're right in that we will find out who loved Snape and why he was either too afraid or unwilling to return.

 

[Figment22]

But in the "Spinner's End" chapter he realized "Oh crap, these two psycho killer drama queens are not going to get out of my house until I pick a side and stick with it, preferably theirs."

This just cracked me up, Judi!

We've seen several times that the romantic love just doesn't last and isn't a strong foundation- that there has to be more.

Won-Won and Lavendar tanked
Hermione and Krum were never really anything more than, "Physical"
Harry and Cho ended terribly

I think Harry/Ginny and Hermoine/Ron will last, though. Ultimately, Harry gets to "be" a Weasley, I'm sure.

 

[All American]

HP fan checking in.

 

[Kimberly815]

Just joining in!

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

I think that all the HP characters show human flaws - Snape is a little more than the garden variety hey-nobody's-perfect range of flaws though. We are all capable of being truly evil, I think Snape has gone farther to the edge of that...and was genuinely apalled at himself.

I agree with that. But one thing I have always felt is that Snape is very torn. I think for someone like him, who was teased, didn't have a good home life, didn't have close friends, etc. he was probably always attracted to the idea of what the dark arts could offer. I think he definitely was appalled by himself when he "went farther to the edge" of evil as you said but at the same time I think there may have been a part of him that was angry for not being evil enough. I mean, wouldn't it make his life easier if he could just be evil? Instead he has these very human feelings and flaws that ultimately have put him in a position where he's had to make some very difficult decisions. I can't help but think he may be more than a little resentful of that.

I don't know if I'm really getting my point across as well as I'd like so I apologize if none of that makes any sense


ETA: I LOVE the new main page! Great job, UnderTheMistletoe Oh, and maybe everyone could introduce themselves using first names? It makes it a little easier to address one another instead of having to use s/n's. Would that be okay? My name is Veronica by the way

 

[va32h]

I agree with that. But one thing I have always felt is that Snape is very torn. I think for someone like him, who was teased, didn't have a good home life, didn't have close friends, etc. he was probably always attracted to the idea of what the dark arts could offer. I think he definitely was appalled by himself when he "went farther to the edge" of evil as you said but at the same time I think there may have been a part of him that was angry for not being evil enough. I mean, wouldn't it make his life easier if he could just be evil? Instead he has these very human feelings and flaws that ultimately have put him in a position where he's had to make some very difficult decisions. I can't help but think he may be more than a little resentful of that.

I don't know if I'm really getting my point across as well as I'd like so I apologize if none of that makes any sense

I think it makes a lot of sense. Snape's life would be easier if he didn't have a conscience. And he's smart enough to know that he really isn't going to get anything out of this, other than assuaging his conscience. Which in theory is enough but...no one likes him, even when they thought he was on their side, no one in the Order actually liked Snape, the just tolerated him.

Snape is probably thinking he is going to save Harry, and by extension save the entire Wizarding World, and Harry is still going to be the hero, get all the accolades, and Snape will die as alone and friendless as he lived.

 

[piglet too]

I love some of the ideas I am seeing here!

This thread my just convince my DH to come onto the board.

 

[MareQ]

OHHHHH a Harry Potter thread. COUNT ME IN!!!!!

 

[jonestavern]

Count us in!
All 3 of us are huge HP devotees!

Jean, Chris & Patrick

 

[PixiePop]

I'm a Potter fan too!

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

I think it makes a lot of sense. Snape's life would be easier if he didn't have a conscience. And he's smart enough to know that he really isn't going to get anything out of this, other than assuaging his conscience. Which in theory is enough but...no one likes him, even when they thought he was on their side, no one in the Order actually liked Snape, the just tolerated him.

Snape is probably thinking he is going to save Harry, and by extension save the entire Wizarding World, and Harry is still going to be the hero, get all the accolades, and Snape will die as alone and friendless as he lived.

Yeah, that's exactly the point I was getting at! He probably feels kind of like "well what am I really getting out of this?" since, like you said, no one really ever liked him. He was accepted and tolerated by the other Order members simply because Dumbledore said he trusted Snape. He knows that even though they all accepted DD's word that deep down, they probably still have their doubts about him. He has that very nagging, decent side that is telling him that helping the Order and bringing down Voldemort is the right thing to do and he has the very lonely. angry part of him wondering "well why should I? They don't trust me as it is and Potter is going to end up getting all the glory anyway." I can definitely see him struggling with those conflicting feelings.

 

[golfgal]

Ok, my take on Snape, he is mean and vindictive and hasn't ever been able to get over things that happened in the past, mainly his childhood but he isn't evil and is on the side of the Order. He is never going to be a likable guy but the evilness such as Voldermort/Malfoy/Death Eaters portray just isn't there.

Dumbledore was most definitely begging Snape to kill him not spare him because dead he can offer Harry and others assistance that he could not offer alive.

Can we move on to RAB now?????? It isn't Regulus Black, TOO EASY. It is RA Burke from Borgin and Burke's shop, whom we haven't yet met, nor do we know his first name yet we know Borgin's first name (but I can't remember what that is off hand without looking it up). Otherwise it is someone we have never met but my guess is Burke.

 

[va32h]

Can we move on to RAB now?????? It isn't Regulus Black, TOO EASY. It is RA Burke from Borgin and Burke's shop, whom we haven't yet met, nor do we know his first name yet we know Borgin's first name (but I can't remember what that is off hand without looking it up). Otherwise it is someone we have never met but my guess is Burke.

I think it is definitely Regulus. JKR made a point of mentioning Regulus' name several times in Half Blood Prince when she really didn't need to. It was quite anvil-icious.

We associate JKR with all sorts of elaborate plot twists, but when you break it down, she really does go for this straightforward. The HP universe has an iternal logic.

We have one book left - this is not the time to bring in an elaborate backstory about Borgin, Burke, or some other character that has only be referenced briefly.

We know the basics of Regulus' backstory. He was the younger brother of Sirius, and followed the family tradition of going into Slytherin House and upholding the "pureblood" ideals. Sirius didn't think much of his brother or his wizarding abilities, and we have to wonder if that didn't factor into Regulus' decision to become a Death Eater (I'll show my big brother!).

Regulus changed his mind and tried to leave the DE's when asked to do...something. For this rebellion, he was, allegedly, murdered on Voldemort's command. But no body was ever found, as Lupin conveniently tells us in HBP.

Now honestly - JKR is not going to tell us all that about a character that also happens to fit the RAB initials perfectly - and then go on to make RAB some guy she has mentioned in passing.

This is what I think. Voldemort gave several of his horcruxes to trusted DEs to hide. He didn't tell them they were horcruxes, just something extremely valuable. Lucius got the Diary, Bellatrix got something (maybe the cup?), Voldemort keeps Nagini with him always, we still have the unknown horcrux with its unknown keeper, and Regulus got the locket.

So Voldemort tells Regulus - hide this for me. Maybe even tells him exactly how to hide it, since Dumbledore says he senses Voldie's "style" in the various enchantments on the cave.

At some point in the course of hiding the locket, Regulus finds out what it is. He's horrified. He's all for pureblooded wizards, but the horcrux is the most evil invention of the wizarding world. He realizes that Voldie is looking for eternal evil domination and Regulus decides to rebel. So he plants the fake locket - which explains how he "got past" the enchantments, he didn't have to get past them since he set them up.

Now - Regulus has to figure out what to do, because he's dead as soon as Voldemort figures out what happened. Did he...go to Dumbledore and ask for help? And Dumbledore faked Regulus' death? When Dumbledore tells Draco he can fake his death, is it because he has done it before?

I think we will meet the not-so-dead-after-all Regulus in Deathly Hallows, and he will be RAB.

For that matter, I think that Snape's turning point has something to do with Regulus too. Snape loathed Sirius, and wouldn't it be a lovely revenge to bring Sirius' brother into the Death Eaters? Snape and Regulus would have been in the same House and attended school in overlapping years. So Snape befriends Regulus for the purpose of enraging Sirius, and maybe Regulus actually likes him - considers him the mentor that his own brother refuses to be, and then the kid is "murdered" so Snape thinks - after joining the DE at Snape's urging.

See, it always comes back to Snape!

 

[golfgal]

We don't have much back story on Regulis other then he was Sirius's brother, possibly killed by a death eater. I think that Burke's story is more relevant to the horcrux then Regulis Black, who by Sirius' account wasn't all that smart and probably couldn't have accessed the locket in the first place. Borgen and Burkes has been mentioned in several books and have played an important part in two of the books vs a passing reference to Regulis. Regulis is just too easy and unlike JKR to give such and easy clue to what will probably turn out to be an important part in book 7.

 

[tw1nsmom]

I think RAB is Regulis. I think there's a lot about him we haven't heard yet.

I'm a huge HP fan. I really need to go back and do some rereading before I can really comment.

 

[va32h]

We don't have much back story on Regulis other then he was Sirius's brother, possibly killed by a death eater. I think that Burke's story is more relevant to the horcrux then Regulis Black, who by Sirius' account wasn't all that smart and probably couldn't have accessed the locket in the first place. Borgen and Burkes has been mentioned in several books and have played an important part in two of the books vs a passing reference to Regulis. Regulis is just too easy and unlike JKR to give such and easy clue to what will probably turn out to be an important part in book 7.

Why would Borgin and Burke be working against Voldemort? They own a shop devoted to dark objects. They would be fascinated with a horcrux, not repulsed.

Moreover, they are both alive, although RAB seemed quite certain he would soon be dead.

And neither of them have made any effort to join the Order, or in any way fight against the Death Eaters, which seems odd for someone who was willing to risk death to steal the horcrux in the first place.

The real locket Horcrux is almost certainly the locket that was found in the drawing room at 12 Grimmauld Place and that Kreacher stole out of the trash. If Borgin or Burke was RAB, how would the locket have ended up in the Black family home?

What Sirius says about his brother has to be understood through Sirius' bias. Sirius is angry at his brother for being a DE. He has the typical older brother contempt for a younger brother.

Besides which, we know that Burke's first name is Caractacus.

I don't understand the logic behind "it's too easy" as an argument. JKR does make things easy. Remember the Mark Evans fiasco? A passing reference was made to a boy named Mark Evans in OoTP. All over the net, speculation went crazy - ooh, the name Evans means he had to be related to Lily and this is Harry's long lost cousin. Nope. Just a coincidence, even though fans swore JKR never has coincidences.

And Dumbledore is dead? That's the simplest, most obvious conclusion at the end of HBP. Entire websites sprung up devoted to the idea that Dumbledore could not be dead, with some elaborate and very clever explanations of how he could have faked his death. But JKR came out and said, plain as day "Dumbledore is dead."

Ron and Hermione - the obvious romantic coupling, and per JKR - that's the way it is. Harry's mysterious power referenced at the end of OoTP. Oh it couldn't be love, that's too obvious, that's too easy - but nope! Dumbledore confirmed in HBP that it's love, "just love."

I will bet you a $25 gift card to the Disney Store that RAB is Regulus.

 

[mugglemom]

Our kids are huge HP fans hence my user name!

 

[JunieJay]

R.A.B. is almost certainly Regulus, although she confirmed he's dead in an interview well before HBP was released, so he won't be a character per se. Still, following his journey's certainly going to be part of the last book, along with coming to terms with Sirius' penchant for dismissing those who are more important than he'd thought.

May i suggest for our next topic we discuss who will kick the bucket in the next book, i'm sure it will be an interesting one.

For sure: Snape, Voldemort, Bellatrix, Wormtail and a slew of Deatheaters

Maybe: Percy, Dudley, Draco. Any of the high-profile and much-loved teachers are fair game (McGonagall, Lupin, Hagrid), and God forbid I hate to even consider it, but one or the other Weasley twin.

The ones besides Voldemort I most want to see meet their maker: Petunia and Vernon. The Dursley's are such deliciously vile characters, it would seem a shame not to have them meet a spectacular end.

JKR is just being coy about Harry biting it, I think. I can't see how she could with good conscience kill off such a beloved character, knowing how much it would affect children. I know Dumbledore and Sirius were heartbreakers, but Harry? Geez, I want to jump off a bridge just thinking about it.