MS's confirmed no more Stormalong Bay hopping

[DVCLady]

Delete

 

[CarolA]

If it is in the documents they could take it away, but I am pretty sure it is a legal nightmare that Disney is not going to do.

However, the solution to all this whining about your dues supporting pools etc. is fairly simple. Eliminate pool hopping all together. Why they don't do this, I don't know. I think from both a user point of view and a DVC point of view this perk is WAY to much trouble for the reward.

 

[HookdonWDW]

Originally posted by dougmatt

2) (the more important point) I have been told by my guide, and it is printed in the BC literature that SAB is 'currently' available to the BCV's, but not gauranteed. He has warned me that it could be pulled away in the future. This is pretty much the EXACT wording they used when they talked about PH'ing when I purchased. So if they take SAB off the PH list, or stop PH'ing all together, then IMHO it is only one small step further to take SAB away from BCV owners, who REALLY represent the pressure on the pool. YOU BCV owners have paid NOTHING for SAB (regardless of the earlier posters). You do NOT own SAB. Your dues do NOT pay to support SAB. You have a nice quiet pool . That sounds harsh, but it is the reality of the situation.

Be careful what you are so willing to 'give up' as it may be you giving it up some day.

MHO

Doug

per page 6 of the Beach Club Villlas Public Offering Statement:

b) Certain other recreational and commonly used facilities are made available to Owners, Club Members, their guests, exchangers and renters of the Beach Club Villas through the Common Facilities Agreement and are described as follows:

i) Feature Swimming Pool and Sun/Bathing Deck. One (1) feature swimming pool and one (1) sun/bathing deck is built and available for use. The sun/bathing deck is approximately 73,000 square feet in size and the feature swimming pool is approximately 29,000 square feet in size and ranges in depth from zero (0) inches to eight (8) feet. The feature swimming pool is heated and has a capacity of 1200 persons.

Sounds like a guarantee of SAB in my contract...

 

[DisneyCrazy]

Originally posted by HookdonWDW


per page 6 of the Beach Club Villlas Public Offering Statement:

b) Certain other recreational and commonly used facilities are made available to Owners, Club Members, their guests, exchangers and renters of the Beach Club Villas through the Common Facilities Agreement and are described as follows:

i) Feature Swimming Pool and Sun/Bathing Deck. One (1) feature swimming pool and one (1) sun/bathing deck is built and available for use. The sun/bathing deck is approximately 73,000 square feet in size and the feature swimming pool is approximately 29,000 square feet in size and ranges in depth from zero (0) inches to eight (8) feet. The feature swimming pool is heated and has a capacity of 1200 persons.

Sounds like a guarantee of SAB in my contract...

Might be sematics, I'm no lawyer: made available... Can they be made UNavailable? To me, it doesn't say 'will provide', which sound more concrete. Again, I'm no lawyer.

Can the 'Common Facilities Agreement' be changed/amended? I SERIOUSLY doubt it would change, but at quick glance it sounds like it could. I assume you didn't sign this agreement but rather Disney and DVD did. They might decided to change it later.

 

[dougmatt]

I can only go with what the guide told me since I have not yet purchased BCV. He was very specific the SAB was 'currently' available for use, but was NOT part of the resort and could be taken away. Like I said, it was EXACTLY the same words he used to describe PH'ing back when we bought ....

As to this:

However, the solution to all this whining about your dues supporting pools etc. is fairly simple. Eliminate pool hopping all together. Why they don't do this, I don't know. I think from both a user point of view and a DVC point of view this perk is WAY to much trouble for the reward.

WHAT???

There is absolutely NO trouble on ANYONE's part... The user's experience no trouble, there is absolutely NO significant admin by DVC.. Only 'cost' is an environmental one of which the significance has yet to be proven by empirical data.

Obviously this is not a priviledge you utilized so you do not CARE (or understand why it bothers others) if it is done away with.. However what about if they pulled something you enjoyed? Perhaps 2DC activities, or the Camp Fires, or perhaps the DS discounts, or stopped offering member getaways, or decided not to do the DCL offering anymore, got rid of the CC resorts, stopped allowing II transfers... and on and on and on.. NONE of these programs are GUARANTEED to remain or stay the same. ALL of these programs represent SIGNIFICANTLY more cost to DVC than PH!?!? (Every benefit we loose whether you used it or not affects someone. )

EVERY trip to Disney we go to SAB, so this one hits home for me. Especially when there doesn't seem to be a legitimate reason for it. As I said before it is possible that the addition of BCV's will impact SAB significantly due to DVC members using pools a little heavier than traditional guests, but I would have liked to see them make the effort of verifying that before reducing our benefits. Right now there is no statistical evidence to support the decision. I also haven't seen them add a benefit in AWHILE. Only reduce. That is a negative trend that I hope will stop soon. The last significant 'added' benefit I remember is the addition of DCL to the point charts (in 98?). There have been some discount changes along the way, but nothing else of significance that I can remember....

One more thing... Perhaps PH'ing going away is Disney's way of pushing DVC'rs back to the parks? My last 2 trips down I didn't go near them... Apent all my time at the pools . They do have statistics on DVC'rs attendance at the parks!

PHEW! I'll get off the soapbox..... Sorry if this sounds harsh. Don't mean it to be. PH'ing is possibly my FAVORITE benefit, and SAB is my DF's favorite pool. The loss of SAB to PH'ing means Luna will REALLY be packed now (thought of that yet???)... How soon til it's cut off there?

Doug

 

[PKS44]

Originally posted by CarolA
Eliminate pool hopping all together. Why they don't do this, I don't know. I think from both a user point of view and a DVC point of view this perk is WAY to much trouble for the reward.

I guess I just don't see how this perk is any trouble at all, in general. As I pointed out in an earlier post it costs them NOTHING. It does not create any additional work, it is the easiest thing in the World to give away because it is using facilities that are already there and have to be maintained whether they are used by one or one thousand people a month...The only "trouble" would be if poolhoppers were creating some new problems- this is the heart of the SAB issue...DVD apparently feels that SAB cannot handle the burden of BCV and continued poolhopping...as for the rest of the resorts- I don't know- but maybe with the DVC population now over 50,000 families there will be too many DVC poolhoppers on property and they will pose some problems beyond SAB--that they have not eliminated the whole program yet is proof that the program is not WAY too much trouble- if it were they would have gotten rid of it...I suspect poolhopping is done by a very small percent of DVC owners...the only trouble it tends to cause is on these boards...

 

[Dean]

PKS44 and dougmatt. Don't confuse the realization that this was a doomed program, especially at SAB, with the desire for it to stop. I wish it weren't so. My comments are based on interpretation and reality and not desire. As to documentation, I'm sure they have plenty, just not sharing it with us. Someone who feels strongly should talk with the voting representative or one of the board members and see what studies and documentation have been collected. My guess is it will be quite a lot.

As I've said all along, stopping PH to SAB is almost the equivalent of discontinuing the program and would be the beginning of the end, IMO. I wouldn't worry about SAB not being open to BCV members unless it's closed totally though I'm sure BCV will pay a pretty penny for that benefit.

As for the system being no trouble and having no cost, I would disagree. What about MS taking all the calls about the program and changes therein. When one follows the rules, they call the resort to see if it's open for that day. That means they must have a person, persons of even a committee that determines when it's open and when it's closed. It also means that there must be education and a notification system so that the staff at BC/YC knows when it's open and closed. Then they must put up with the complaints of DVC members that are turned away when necessary. Even if there were no financial cost to Disney, there is an aggravation that seems more trouble than it's worth from their standpoint. I can tell you for certain that if I were DVC and had to worry when it's open, when it's closed and the personnel issues associated; I'd cancel the program and deal with the one time heat it would generate. Otherwise I'd just have it open all the time. There would be no in between. And no, there's no legal situation here. Even if one wanted to pursue this legally, there are 2 factors. One is that there's no legal basis and the other is Disney is the proverbial 600# Gorilla.

And yes, all of the other non guaranteed options could change including the fact that a resort could actually be dropped from the Club in certain situations. I personally think Disney should continue the program all of the time to all of the pools. I think they made a commitment even it it's not a legally binding commitment. I actually think that the limitations that were initiated a few years ago and have been slowly increasing, was actually the beginning of the end.

I personally don't care to make a distinction between cash or points guests or BC or DVC pool hoppers. I feel Disney made a commitment to both and don't see one any more important than the other. Personally, I think you keep it open to the entire group until it's full then you close it if necessary. Since DVC has to monitor access anyway, you simply strive to keep out the crashers. You also police saving of lounges and if one is empty for 2 hours or more, it's fair game and any materials left are taken up by staff.

 

[PKS44]

Originally posted by Dean
As for the system being no trouble and having no cost, I would disagree. What about MS taking all the calls about the program and changes therein. When one follows the rules, they call the resort to see if it's open for that day. That means they must have a person, persons of even a committee that determines when it's open and when it's closed. It also means that there must be education and a notification system so that the staff at BC/YC knows when it's open and closed. Then they must put up with the complaints of DVC members that are turned away when necessary. Even if there were no financial cost to Disney, there is an aggravation that seems more trouble than it's worth from their standpoint. I can tell you for certain that if I were DVC and had to worry when it's open, when it's closed and the personnel issues associated; I'd cancel the program and deal with the one time heat it would generate. Otherwise I'd just have it open all the time. There would be no in between.

If those things Dean says are true this would be a good argument to stop the program...If they are not true, I am still waiting for a good argument...I doubt all of the above...I would like to see some real numbers, if the program actually costs or makes so much aggravation I am not one to still demand anything...Most of the posters seem to be quite reasonable--all any of us PH fans are saying is give us the facts, there are none now because the place has not even opened., so they decided either on conjecture or they have facts--if they have facts, share the facts...since we don't get any that leaves all of us guessing and I think my guesses are as likely correct as anybody's until proven otherwise....There are 1050 DVC rooms on property away from the BCV. How many house poolhoppers on a given day?(few probably) Of those, how many are going to SAB? (most probably) How much administrative headache has this caused (little probably) But it would be nice to have those facts...an idisputable fact is that SAB is not ALWAYS busy right now.

I doubt there is much thought that has to go into "deciding" and educating the staff if a pool is open or not, the number of days closed outside the pre-announced days would be an interestiing fact...has anyone on these boards ever called and been told a pool was closed unexpectedly? Please post about your experience...I suspect this happens so infrequently that the cost and aggravation are negligible...and the number of calls fielded about whether a pool is open or not is unknown- my guess is that it is a tiny number...all those calls and "all the calls to MS" might amount to one call a day, maybe two, for all we know...and you can't count any of the recent calls about the changes-the whole point is it would be fine if they would just leave it alone and see what happens....we are also not aware of the number, if any, of complaints by members turned away...what would the complaint be? The system allows for turning people away, fair and square...The only complainers I have heard about were hopping against the rules, not staying on points, etc...I would suspect anyone complaining would be a basic complainer...you can be sure they will find something else to whine about if not this.

One more point...for those staying at BCV- that is one long walk to SAB through the BC lobby--I hope the extra cost of cleaning up the sand and water trekked through the lobby doesn't raise the dues too much or lead to curtailing of SAB priveleges

 

[HookdonWDW]

Originally posted by DisneyCrazy


Might be sematics, I'm no lawyer: made available... Can they be made UNavailable? To me, it doesn't say 'will provide', which sound more concrete. Again, I'm no lawyer.

Can the 'Common Facilities Agreement' be changed/amended? I SERIOUSLY doubt it would change, but at quick glance it sounds like it could. I assume you didn't sign this agreement but rather Disney and DVD did. They might decided to change it later.

I checked my contract, and the public offerings statement (p.8). According to both, this is what I got:

Common Facilities Agreement shall mean that certain Common Facilities Agreement by and between Worldco and DVD effective the _____ day of _____, 200_, as recorded in the Official Records Book _____, Page___, Public Records of Orange County, Florida.

I agree that the agreement is between Disney and DVD, but the contract and POS both state that "Recreational facilities may be expanded or added without consent of the Purchasers of the Association."

Since DVD went out of their way to state this, I think that we would have grounds for complaint if they took Recreational Facilities away, that were mentioned specifically in the contract and POS, and didn't replace them with comparable facilities.

And if DVD decided to build a SAB II for BCV owners, I'm not going to complain

 

[Dean]

From what I'm told, the pool opening or closing is a fluid decision that is made by some staff or the other throughout the day. On days the pool is theoretically open, they have closed it during the day and asked people to leave who started out legal pool hoppers. I also know of at least once where a DVC member was told yes on the phone call and refused entry on arrival within an hour. I don't know how often this happens, I suspect it is rare but it has happened. I suspect there is a person each and every day who has part of their job to follow this issue and keep the front desk updated as to open or closed. How well they do that job is another matter, not very well at times it seems.

Obviously DVC has to have projections but they seem pretty good at that over the years. I would bet they have data as to how busy the pool is by day of week, month, holidays and the like. I also bet they have a pretty good idea with real data as to the percent or number of DVC members PH to X resort and the same for crashers. Whether they will indeed share it may be another matter. I actually think they would if you got to the right person. The fact they've even gone to what I'd consider an extreme situation of having it closed part of the time tells me it is important to them and worth them spending their time and money with up to a point. I guess SAB reached that point.

 

[PamOKW]

They are adding 205 villas to the SAB pool without enlarging it at all. The majority of those people are going to want to use the main pool....just like very few Y&B club guests use the quiet pools now. I can see where there is the potential for overcrowding and they've decided to go ahead and eliminate the pool hopping to SAB. I don't see where there is any legal grounds for members to protest this decision.

 

[DisneyCrazy]

Originally posted by HookdonWDW


I checked my contract, and the public offerings statement (p.8). According to both, this is what I got:

Common Facilities Agreement shall mean that certain Common Facilities Agreement by and between Worldco and DVD effective the _____ day of _____, 200_, as recorded in the Official Records Book _____, Page___, Public Records of Orange County, Florida.

I agree that the agreement is between Disney and DVD, but the contract and POS both state that "Recreational facilities may be expanded or added without consent of the Purchasers of the Association."

Since DVD went out of their way to state this, I think that we would have grounds for complaint if they took Recreational Facilities away, that were mentioned specifically in the contract and POS, and didn't replace them with comparable facilities.

And if DVD decided to build a SAB II for BCV owners, I'm not going to complain

Again, just my two semesters of business law for reference here - but since it says, "without consent of the Purchasers of the Association" I would say they could also take things away. Sure, you could complain, but legally you would have no recourse. Like I said, I don't see it happening, but it could - there is nothing that says it couldn't.

I think there is a better chance of SAB II than anything. It (SAB) is obviously VERY popular - if it turn out to be too crowded with the addition of BCV it would make sense to add another rather than having dissatisfied guest (of BCV, YC & BC).

 

[PKS44]

Originally posted by DisneyCrazy
I think there is a better chance of SAB II than anything. It (SAB) is obviously VERY popular - if it turn out to be too crowded with the addition of BCV it would make sense to add another rather than having dissatisfied guest (of BCV, YC & BC).

From what I have heard there is virtually no chance of another pool like SAB anywhere on property again...It has been a headache to maintain and they can do nice, themed pools cheaper and easier without making an SAB like place- (e.g. new Poly and GF pools, Coronado Springs pool)..Any fancy water features will likely only be added as part of a new water park ($$$)

For those who complain about paying dues to support their pool that others use, I would just remind them that the pool has to be maintained pretty much the same no matter what, and the added PH's add little cost to the necessary maintenance expenses...Just curious, but will PH'ing be allowed to the BCV quiet pool? (Not really interested in doing that, it would just be an easy place to go to if you get thrown out of SAB and an easy place to go and then just happen over to see if SAB is too crowded to allow a little unapproved hopping as well)

Paul