Mrs D
I realize most people don't hear editing.
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2008
- Messages
- 4,125
[apologies in advance, this has become something of a magnum opus. try to find the point in it's creation where the bottle of rum was opened]
To theLittleThings,
Before you put send out anything with a lawyers letter head on it, please read this. You can take this or leave it, but I will give you some very good advice regardless. This is something I know something about. My professional history is as a negotiator. Primarily I work our policy agreements between big companies and small nations; sometimes between small nations; and sometimes between individuals. Disputes like these can usually be resolved because when they can't the remaining options can involve airstrikes and artillery. That's a hard decision to write down and I'm not terribly proud to have been in some negotiations. Even so, offering you any advice at all is rather terrifying as well. Anyway...
What your family and your husband's ex's family (from here on called: YOU and THEM) are in right now is a conflict. More accurately it is a dispute. I've read 4 pages of posts, many from you, about the situation. Here is my one important observation: you are not negotiating with them.
This is where I see a lot of your energy directed:
[*]You want to take the girl to WDW.
[*]They said yes and you took them at their word.
[*]Then they said no and you don't want to take them at that word.
Right? You feel it is unfair that they said yes then said no. You want to hold them to their word. You feel cheated. You made plans and purchases in good faith that could now amount to a substantial loss. You (again meaning your family) are taking their actions personally. This mindset will not resolve the conflict.
Reality is, you knew what kind of person you were dealing with when you made the first agreement. It is not a new realization that they are a "petty" vindictive manipulative when it comes to dealing with the girl. But you did not get from them any significant commitment to the original agreement. No commitment to allowing the girl to go with you was memorialized in any way before you booked the vacation. According to your posts, expecting them to do right by the girl is like expecting a fish to stop swimming; yet that is exactly what you are doing.
The first step in a negotiation is to establish that it has nothing at all to do with figuring out what's fair, who's at fault, or who's the bad guy. The dispute is not about any of those things, it's about whether or not that little girl goes with you to WDW.
As it stands, you want the girl to go and they do not. You have your reasons for wanting her to go and even if you don't agree with them they have their reasons for wanting her to not go.
To you, YOUR reasons are rational, compassionate, reasonable and sane.
They would describe THEIR reasons the same way I'm sure. Very few people believe that they are the bad guy.
You don't think you are the bad guy but I promise you that they think you are.
So a negotiation can't be about who's a good guy and who's a villain.
It might be about "rights" and your lawyer might be able to assert a "right" for you to take the girl. But defining rights and asserting them is a nebulous affair and if you lead with this strategy and fail, the negotiation is over. Save your lawyer for a last resort.
What happens when a person is told, "no" is that their pride hurts and they see the other party through a lens of anger. What happens is you start thinking about how to make the person do what they told you they would not do. You try to argue with the person or try to leverage some advantage you might have in another area. Maybe you try to shame that person. They push, you push back.
What I would like you to try, before the lawyer throws down a gauntlet, is a real negotiation.
You (meaning you, you and your husband, or maybe just your husband... whatever will work best) call them and ask if you can meet them some place for coffee to discuss the vacation plans. Suggest a place and time that you know is convenient to them. This is known as the 'first conciliation', it is concession to them that will build trust and in a way force them to participate in good faith.
Open the discussion by explaining that when you had first brought up the subject you took their answer to mean that the girl could go with you and that when they clarified their decision your first reaction was one of hurt feelings. Because of this, you think the discussions you and they have had have been confrontational and not at all productive.
Look how this comes out... You will use "I" statements throughout the conversation. You will NEVER posit anything about what the other party is (or must be) thinking, their motivations, etc... NEVER make "you" statements ("you do this... you want her to... you never liked...). What you want to do is take OWNERSHIP of the situation, and you start to do that by taking responsibility for making the situation lousy. True or not, you tell them that the bad feelings between you over this is because of YOUR hurt feelings, then when you change your attitude they are forced to do the same.
Now after you eat a little crow, you tell them that you know they must feel very strongly about the decision they reached and it might help you to come to a mutually agreeable solution if they would share with you some of their concerns. No matter how they answer, try to find some way to acknowledge and validate what they tell you. If they say they had always planned to take the girl to WDW but have been strapped for cash, then you reply by saying that you completely understand and even feel the same way and that you never intended this vacation to be a way to take something from them. If they say they have real problems with her flying or being so far away, commiserate; appreciate what they have said by saying how you have those same feelings at times and you know how hard it can be. Do NOT offer counter-point or try to poke holes in their reasoning. This is known as the 'second conciliation'. You are accepting and even validating how the other party came to the decision that forms their STARTING position in the negotiation.
Now it is your turn. Pitch your case softly. Explain objective, external, factors in your decision to go on this vacation. Work schedules and resort costs and the shortened school-week all informed your decision to plan the vacation when you did. It's an opportunity that will not present itself very often and you know the girl will enjoy the opportunity. Pitfalls at this stage include using too many "I" statements. This vacation is a force of nature that you have very little control over and taking the girl is not a benefit to you but going with you is a benefit to the girl. You do not want them to see giving in as doing YOU a favor. You want them to see changing their mind as a gift they are giving the girl, something THEY can pat themselves on the back over. Don't try to close the deal at this point. You are just giving them a look into your decision making process so they can believe that the vacation wasn't designed to make them look bad.
The third and final conciliation you make happens before you attempt to close the deal. This is how it works, you acknowledge the conflict. You propose that you and they both are there to do whats best for the little girl. Say something like, "This can't be handled like an argument. Nobody is going to "win" this if winning comes at a cost the little girl has to pay. Neither of us want to win that way."
Then drop this on them, "Is there anything I can do that would make you feel better about letting the girl go with us to WDW?" but before they answer say, "I wan't you to understand that I know this is a sacrifice for you, and that it's important enough to me to make sacrifices of my own."
Like the others, the 'third conciliation' does not actually give up anything. It's not a promise, it's a question. You will get one of two possible answers, "Yes, if you would ..." or, "No, there's nothing you can do to change my mind". If yes, then consider her terms and be generous with your concessions. The hard part is over, all that's left is putting the groceries in the bag (so to speak).
If you get a "no" here, it's not over. Remain composed and tell them you understand. Tell them you hope they will change their mind, and thank them for meeting you. If possible, pick up the tab. Very often a no is really a yes (unless it's a girl you picked up... in that case only a yes is a yes). They may want to reach a compromise but need the ego boost of getting it on their terms. So they say no, then a day or so later you hear from them. You might even get your yes from the girl what better way to claim some of the credit than by informing the girl of the vacation you are taking her on. But a no will remain a no if you leave the table in a huff or pitch some kind of fit.
Remember, the goal is not to be right; it's to give that girl a great vacation. Be prepared to give up Christmas Break to get it though.
I'm going to copy and save this. This is really a great way to be able to step back from an emotional disagreement and work towards a resolution!
DS turns 16 in January and we're just going to go in to apply and find out for sure. The worst they can do is say no, and we've already had that experience once (because while I have a child support order that clearly states I have sole legal and physical custody, they don't consider that a binding custody order).
"Just keep swimming, swimming, swimming"
my dh has 50/50 and his ex has played games since we have been married( dss was 5 when we married) but he is almost 16 now and has lost alot of respect for bm because of it, they DO get old enough to see the games. We take the high road and sometimes he has to miss things we do but is ALWAYS invited. Its got to the point he calls ME if he needs a drs appt , something for school ect ect because he knows it will get done. I understand the date thing, because of my dhs job we sometimes have to take what we can get and we have a dd and we cant tell her she cant do something just because his mom wont let him go, also we always let him go when its the other way around. We plan our trips 6 months to a yr in advance to give notice and she will say ues then after we pay start the games.. But the kids always start to see... Prayers to u!
