Mother won't let my DSD go. Vent!

[disykat]

I was a kid in this situation. My mum had custody and my father and his second wife planned a trip to Disney World. My mum didn't want me to go, but couldn't think of a way to stop it. She was so sad my first trip wouldn't be with her.

That trip was miserable. I hated it, but I still loved Disney World. I got to go with my mum two years later, and that was a magical trip, I used to say it was a testament to the power of Disney that even my step-mother couldn't ruin it. Frankly, I wish my father had thought to ask me, because I would have wanted that first trip with my mum just as she wanted it with me. I think it was my father who was selfish. He wasn't the parent who was there, who cared for me day in and day out, but he wanted to be the "hero" parent who took me on vacations. Even as a kid, I saw right through him.

I think this trip sounds different. It sounds like both parents played that one wrong. In this case, the dad is taking the rest of his family to WDW and wants his daughter to be able to come. Would you have been okay if your dad was taking other kids to WDW and didn't try to bring you along? I see all the time on this site people being crucified for planning trips their children who live with another parent can't go on. It's really a no win situation. It's either "how dare you go to WDW without ALL your children" or "how dare you take your child to WDW before their mom is able to."

 

[kaytieeldr]

There was a court case on this recently in Arizona. The judge ordered the parent that was refusing consent to let the child go to the happiest place on Earth.

Just to be clear, The Happiest Place on Earth is Disneyland Resort.

Walt Disney World is The Most Magical Place on Earth .

 

[mckelvey72]

Maybe I don't get some of these comments cause I am with the father and the ex is the mother. DSD lives with her mom during the week and her dad on the weekends during school and every other week during summer. Both parents are involved in the childs life. The father should not have to ask permission to take his daughter anywhere. Letting the ex (mother) know we are going on vacation and this is where we are going....that is it. Do I have your permission to take her....NO WAY. He is the father and has every right to take his daughter to Disney or wherever else we go. And the mother has every right to take her daughter/family. She does not have to ask permission.

Now we do discuss the Disney thing cause it is during the school year. First time we did it we simply told her when we were going, we called the school and got what was needed. 2nd year (this December) we talked about it beforehand cause technically the mother had a right to those 5 vacation days that the school allows. She wasn't planning anything so we said we were going back to Disney.

Now, having said all that....neither parent is a deadbeat parent, both parents work and have spouses that work. No one involved in the kids life is a drug addict, alcoholic etc. If that is the situation then I agree that there is more to discuss and agree on and one parent may have more of a right over the other.

 

[cobright]

[apologies in advance, this has become something of a magnum opus. try to find the point in it's creation where the bottle of rum was opened]

To theLittleThings,

Before you put send out anything with a lawyers letter head on it, please read this. You can take this or leave it, but I will give you some very good advice regardless. This is something I know something about. My professional history is as a negotiator. Primarily I work our policy agreements between big companies and small nations; sometimes between small nations; and sometimes between individuals. Disputes like these can usually be resolved because when they can't the remaining options can involve airstrikes and artillery. That's a hard decision to write down and I'm not terribly proud to have been in some negotiations. Even so, offering you any advice at all is rather terrifying as well. Anyway...

What your family and your husband's ex's family (from here on called: YOU and THEM) are in right now is a conflict. More accurately it is a dispute. I've read 4 pages of posts, many from you, about the situation. Here is my one important observation: you are not negotiating with them.

This is where I see a lot of your energy directed:

1. You want to take the girl to WDW.
2. They said yes and you took them at their word.
3. Then they said no and you don't want to take them at that word.

Right? You feel it is unfair that they said yes then said no. You want to hold them to their word. You feel cheated. You made plans and purchases in good faith that could now amount to a substantial loss. You (again meaning your family) are taking their actions personally. This mindset will not resolve the conflict.

Reality is, you knew what kind of person you were dealing with when you made the first agreement. It is not a new realization that they are a "petty" vindictive manipulative when it comes to dealing with the girl. But you did not get from them any significant commitment to the original agreement. No commitment to allowing the girl to go with you was memorialized in any way before you booked the vacation. According to your posts, expecting them to do right by the girl is like expecting a fish to stop swimming; yet that is exactly what you are doing.

The first step in a negotiation is to establish that it has nothing at all to do with figuring out what's fair, who's at fault, or who's the bad guy. The dispute is not about any of those things, it's about whether or not that little girl goes with you to WDW.

As it stands, you want the girl to go and they do not. You have your reasons for wanting her to go and even if you don't agree with them they have their reasons for wanting her to not go.

To you, YOUR reasons are rational, compassionate, reasonable and sane.

They would describe THEIR reasons the same way I'm sure. Very few people believe that they are the bad guy.

You don't think you are the bad guy but I promise you that they think you are.

So a negotiation can't be about who's a good guy and who's a villain.

It might be about "rights" and your lawyer might be able to assert a "right" for you to take the girl. But defining rights and asserting them is a nebulous affair and if you lead with this strategy and fail, the negotiation is over. Save your lawyer for a last resort.

What happens when a person is told, "no" is that their pride hurts and they see the other party through a lens of anger. What happens is you start thinking about how to make the person do what they told you they would not do. You try to argue with the person or try to leverage some advantage you might have in another area. Maybe you try to shame that person. They push, you push back.

What I would like you to try, before the lawyer throws down a gauntlet, is a real negotiation.

You (meaning you, you and your husband, or maybe just your husband... whatever will work best) call them and ask if you can meet them some place for coffee to discuss the vacation plans. Suggest a place and time that you know is convenient to them. This is known as the 'first conciliation', it is concession to them that will build trust and in a way force them to participate in good faith.

Open the discussion by explaining that when you had first brought up the subject you took their answer to mean that the girl could go with you and that when they clarified their decision your first reaction was one of hurt feelings. Because of this, you think the discussions you and they have had have been confrontational and not at all productive.

Look how this comes out... You will use "I" statements throughout the conversation. You will NEVER posit anything about what the other party is (or must be) thinking, their motivations, etc... NEVER make "you" statements ("you do this... you want her to... you never liked...). What you want to do is take OWNERSHIP of the situation, and you start to do that by taking responsibility for making the situation lousy. True or not, you tell them that the bad feelings between you over this is because of YOUR hurt feelings, then when you change your attitude they are forced to do the same.

Now after you eat a little crow, you tell them that you know they must feel very strongly about the decision they reached and it might help you to come to a mutually agreeable solution if they would share with you some of their concerns. No matter how they answer, try to find some way to acknowledge and validate what they tell you. If they say they had always planned to take the girl to WDW but have been strapped for cash, then you reply by saying that you completely understand and even feel the same way and that you never intended this vacation to be a way to take something from them. If they say they have real problems with her flying or being so far away, commiserate; appreciate what they have said by saying how you have those same feelings at times and you know how hard it can be. Do NOT offer counter-point or try to poke holes in their reasoning. This is known as the 'second conciliation'. You are accepting and even validating how the other party came to the decision that forms their STARTING position in the negotiation.

Now it is your turn. Pitch your case softly. Explain objective, external, factors in your decision to go on this vacation. Work schedules and resort costs and the shortened school-week all informed your decision to plan the vacation when you did. It's an opportunity that will not present itself very often and you know the girl will enjoy the opportunity. Pitfalls at this stage include using too many "I" statements. This vacation is a force of nature that you have very little control over and taking the girl is not a benefit to you but going with you is a benefit to the girl. You do not want them to see giving in as doing YOU a favor. You want them to see changing their mind as a gift they are giving the girl, something THEY can pat themselves on the back over. Don't try to close the deal at this point. You are just giving them a look into your decision making process so they can believe that the vacation wasn't designed to make them look bad.

The third and final conciliation you make happens before you attempt to close the deal. This is how it works, you acknowledge the conflict. You propose that you and they both are there to do whats best for the little girl. Say something like, "This can't be handled like an argument. Nobody is going to "win" this if winning comes at a cost the little girl has to pay. Neither of us want to win that way."

Then drop this on them, "Is there anything I can do that would make you feel better about letting the girl go with us to WDW?" but before they answer say, "I wan't you to understand that I know this is a sacrifice for you, and that it's important enough to me to make sacrifices of my own."

Like the others, the 'third conciliation' does not actually give up anything. It's not a promise, it's a question. You will get one of two possible answers, "Yes, if you would ..." or, "No, there's nothing you can do to change my mind". If yes, then consider her terms and be generous with your concessions. The hard part is over, all that's left is putting the groceries in the bag (so to speak).

If you get a "no" here, it's not over. Remain composed and tell them you understand. Tell them you hope they will change their mind, and thank them for meeting you. If possible, pick up the tab. Very often a no is really a yes (unless it's a girl you picked up... in that case only a yes is a yes). They may want to reach a compromise but need the ego boost of getting it on their terms. So they say no, then a day or so later you hear from them. You might even get your yes from the girl what better way to claim some of the credit than by informing the girl of the vacation you are taking her on. But a no will remain a no if you leave the table in a huff or pitch some kind of fit.

Remember, the goal is not to be right; it's to give that girl a great vacation. Be prepared to give up Christmas Break to get it though.

 

[Minnie]

It's been stated repeatedly that school isn't the issue.

Actually that is incorrect.... As quoted from the very first post -

Well, after talking with her new husband she still says "no" because they would like to be able to take her and their other kids in a couple of years and they had plans to go to another vacation this year so taking her out of school for our vacation would be to much!

So while one of the issue maybe the destination the other is that they already had plans to take her out of school for vacation and believe 2 wks is too much.

 

[turkeymama]

So while one of the issue maybe the destination the other is that they already had plans to take her out of school for vacation and believe 2 wks is too much.

According the OP, the mom said yes in the beginning with conditions. If the timing of said vacation plans did not change, mom didn't seem to have a problem with it initially. It was after she found out where they were going that she had a problem with the child being pulled from school.

She thought it over but said yes under a couple of conditions, DSD would be able to call whenever she wanted and it couldn't have something to do with being over water (assuming meaning cruise). Okay, no biggie we are all set then, right? Nope, just called her to confirm everything tonight and she said "I thought I told you no"?!! My husband told her where we wanted to go how much we really wanted to take her (and our almost 4 year old dd) and how we had already booked tickets, hotel etc... So she said she'll think about it and get back to us. Well, after talking with her new husband she still says "no" because they would like to be able to take her and their other kids in a couple of years and they had plans to go to another vacation this year so taking her out of school for our vacation would be to much!

 

[Minnie]

I didn't state that it was the only issue but in the OP as you and I both quoted it clearly says that the additional time out of school is too much.

While I understand the OPs disappointment if it works out that the DSD cannot go then a way to not cause hard feelings as the child does not live with them is that they had to go when dad was on vacation and she was in school - period. Preserving the relationship of the parent is the most important thing and a vacation should come very far down the line.

 

[turkeymama]

I didn't state that it was the only issue but in the OP as you and I both quoted it clearly says that the additional time out of school is too much.

Agreed. I was just pointing out that she didn't seem to have a problem with it at first. If she did, it wasn't mentioned (at least, the OP didn't mention).

 

[thelittlethings]

So you say.

As I said, I am not willing to vilify the mother based on a biased opinion from somebody who is not getting their way without hearing her side of the story.

2nd wives traditionally trash the 1st wives. And 1st wives traditionally trash the 2nd wives. My guess is that the truth to this story is somewhere in the middle.

Hopefully the courts will straighten it out.

Let's be clear here... I never asked you or anyone else to "vilify" anyone. I also did not ask for anyone to pass judgement on me, my family, or DSD's family. I simply posted this to vent and maybe look for some advice from people who have been there. I am giving you all the facts, believe it or not. "So I say."

My husband was a non-custodial parent ( never married to the mother).

It sucks

Son is now 26 and he's a great brother to our daughter and son, but he knows he missed out on family things because of his mother's decisions.

What did it get her? He now spends almost all his free time with us.
Too bad, so sad for her, I could care less.

I know their are others out there, and it's always nice to know your not alone and it might work out in the end regardless.

So good to see the lawyer thinks you have a good shot at winning. I hope she can go!

Yes, wishing it wouldn't have come to that, but maybe its for the best. The custody papers need to be reviewed.

But this isn't about "trashing" the 1st or 2nd wife. Some one trash talking me doesn't mean a hoot but this is more. this is some one USING a kid for apparently no good reason except she doesn't like some one else.

As firedancer said, the kid is being used as a weapon, which happens all to often.

Now maybe there are some details left out, family dynamics are very hard to sum up in one post. but this is not a unfamiliar story, it happens way too often.

And it 99% of them, the kids is the one "s" out of luck.

Yes, thank you. Im not trying to "trash" anyone. I think the most I did on the thread is call her a "peach" to deal with and thinking what she was doing was selfish. While also trying to explain her personality and explain the situation.

Ya know, I'm not ready to completely vilify the mother either. Not yet. The way I'm reading this is that the mother did not know it was Disney when she initially said no.

The whole "I thought I told you no" and then "my husband told her where we wanted to go" thing.

As a custodial parent I doubt I'd be on board with my ex taking the kids out of state during the school year, which seems to be violating the custody agreement, without very specific details.

My ex DID take my kids to WDW for a week this year. And he did last year too. Something i cant afford. But I'd absolutely think that him w/holding details when asking me about it was shady & I'd be less than comfortable allowing it.

First she said YES, knowing it was out of state. Even went as far as saying this could be DH full week of visitation time for the year. Again, didn't want her to "let it slip" before we even knew we were going. We weren't trying to 'hide" anything from her per say, we were still going to tell her where it was for sure, when we knew we were going, and within the time period that she had to know by law. (Still before the 30 days. Which we did.) Second, she said no still without knowing it was Disney... Then my DH explained everything. She said she would get back to us... Told us no after talking with her husband ONLY because they wanted that vacation time off school this year and two she wanted to be the one to take her to Disney first.

Man, I feel like a broken record.

I was a kid in this situation. My mum had custody and my father and his second wife planned a trip to Disney World. My mum didn't want me to go, but couldn't think of a way to stop it. She was so sad my first trip wouldn't be with her.

That trip was miserable. I hated it, but I still loved Disney World. I got to go with my mum two years later, and that was a magical trip, I used to say it was a testament to the power of Disney that even my step-mother couldn't ruin it. Frankly, I wish my father had thought to ask me, because I would have wanted that first trip with my mum just as she wanted it with me. I think it was my father who was selfish. He wasn't the parent who was there, who cared for me day in and day out, but he wanted to be the "hero" parent who took me on vacations. Even as a kid, I saw right through him.

I'm sorry you went through this but what I want everyone to know is that if DSD did NOT want to go, in no shape or form would we make her go. We would let her know that it is her choice and that we would really love for her to come along with us. We would not guilt her into it nor force her to do something she did not want to do. My DH is a great man and he works hard to make sure we are all taken care of. He loves his DD's both the same and I love my DSD just as much as I love my DD. DSD doesn't dislike me as a step-mom or anything of that matter. Its just not like that in this situation.

I think this trip sounds different. It sounds like both parents played that one wrong. In this case, the dad is taking the rest of his family to WDW and wants his daughter to be able to come. Would you have been okay if your dad was taking other kids to WDW and didn't try to bring you along? I see all the time on this site people being crucified for planning trips their children who live with another parent can't go on. It's really a no win situation. It's either "how dare you go to WDW without ALL your children" or "how dare you take your child to WDW before their mom is able to."

Yes, and I didn't expect this to happen. I was naive in thinking that putting something on a forum would not necessarily turn into a full blown thing. Silly me.. How dumb...

Actually that is incorrect.... As quoted from the very first post -



So while one of the issue maybe the destination the other is that they already had plans to take her out of school for vacation and believe 2 wks is too much.

Yes her reasons are only that of "I want". Not "well maybe we should look at the custodial papers or maybe we should ask our daughter what she would like to do"... She was quick to make it an "I" don't want to let you take her because "I" want to take her first and "I" want to be able to use some days to take her on vacation this year.

 

[cobright]

Preserving the relationship of the parent is the most important thing and a vacation should come very far down the line.

It seems like many posters feel that the mothers wish to have a special vacation with her daughter Is inviolable, but a father's isn't.

How many "I can understand, I wouldn't want my kid to go to WDW without me either" type posts so far? Even if that means the kid goes to WDW without dad? That's a shameful attitude.

I am immediately suspect of a parent who is fine keeping her kid out of school for a vacation but would cause problems for the ex over wanting to do the same.

 

[thelittlethings]

I didn't state that it was the only issue but in the OP as you and I both quoted it clearly says that the additional time out of school is too much.

While I understand the OPs disappointment if it works out that the DSD cannot go then a way to not cause hard feelings as the child does not live with them is that they had to go when dad was on vacation and she was in school - period. Preserving the relationship of the parent is the most important thing and a vacation should come very far down the line.

Basically if we took her on this vacation she might find it more difficult to take her out for hers. There for only thinking of herself and how our vacation is somehow less important. That's what I'm getting at about time off of school. Even though I know she has taken DSD out of school for some of the silliest reasons, if for some reason the school thought DSD shouldn't go or there was a big state test that week, then we would not pull her out.

Agreed. I was just pointing out that she didn't seem to have a problem with it at first. If she did, it wasn't mentioned (at least, the OP didn't mention).

No, when we first asked her months ago, her knowing it was out of state, for the girls' birthdays, and something we would really love to do, she did say yes under those said conditions. Correct.

 

[thelittlethings]

It seems like many posters feel that the mothers wish to have a special vacation with her daughter Is inviolable, but a father's isn't.

How many "I can understand, I wouldn't want my kid to go to WDW without me either" type posts so far? Even if that means the kid goes to WDW without dad? That's a shameful attitude.

I am immediately suspect of a parent who is fine keeping her kid out of school for a vacation but would cause problems for the ex over wanting to do the same.

Thank You! Maybe people just don't see the other side and realize just because "he is the father" doesn't mean he isn't JUST AS important as a mother. A few pieces of paper will not define my DH as a father.
I didn't put this on DIS to get judged or torn apart. I put this on here for some insight on someone who might be willing to help. Just to type it out and have someone listen who might have gone through this, I thought might help. The real point here is my DSD. If she wants to go and we are in our legal rights to take her, I don't see why we should be held back by a mother who wants things to only go her way. (Hopefully some talking or a lawyer will help us out on the legality of the issue.)

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

Thank You! Maybe people just don't see the other side and realize just because "he is the father" doesn't mean he isn't JUST AS important as a mother. A few pieces of paper will not define my DH as a father.
I didn't put this on DIS to get judged or torn apart. I put this on here for some insight on someone who might be willing to help. Just to type it out and have someone listen who might have gone through this, I thought might help. The real point here is my DSD. If she wants to go and we are in our legal rights to take her, I don't see why we should be held back by a mother who wants things to only go her way. (Hopefully some talking or a lawyer will help us out on the legality of the issue.)

But your husband doesn't have custody, and isn't raising her.

Having sole custody of a child carries lots of burdens and responsibilities. This child's mother is the one who who makes the difficult decisions. She's the one who is there when the child is sick, or scared. She's the one who will be at the parent teacher conference if her grades fall after an absence.

I'm not saying that your DSD should or shouldn't go, but if your husband wants to be considered "JUST AS important" in her life, then he should have fought for joint custody from the beginning.

 

[superme80]

It seems like many posters feel that the mothers wish to have a special vacation with her daughter Is inviolable, but a father's isn't.

How many "I can understand, I wouldn't want my kid to go to WDW without me either" type posts so far? Even if that means the kid goes to WDW without dad? That's a shameful attitude.

I am immediately suspect of a parent who is fine keeping her kid out of school for a vacation but would cause problems for the ex over wanting to do the same.

I'm with you. Father's have just as much right to have some of the first just as much as the mother. OP I am with you and I hope you can bring your step daughter.

 

[thelittlethings]

[apologies in advance, this has become something of a magnum opus. try to find the point in it's creation where the bottle of rum was opened]

To theLittleThings,

Before you put send out anything with a lawyers letter head on it, please read this. You can take this or leave it, but I will give you some very good advice regardless. This is something I know something about. My professional history is as a negotiator. Primarily I work our policy agreements between big companies and small nations; sometimes between small nations; and sometimes between individuals. Disputes like these can usually be resolved because when they can't the remaining options can involve airstrikes and artillery. That's a hard decision to write down and I'm not terribly proud to have been in some negotiations. Even so, offering you any advice at all is rather terrifying as well. Anyway...

..................

Remember, the goal is not to be right; it's to give that girl a great vacation. Be prepared to give up Christmas Break to get it though.

Thank you for your insight. We have discussed talking with her again or sending her a letter on our own. We have also discussed, before this goes any further, to make sure DSD would want to come along with us. If she doesn't that is okay. If she does we will take her choice into consideration when taking the next step forward. We don't want it to be a he said she said thing, we just wanted to be able to take a family vacation that included a very important part of our family. I don't think my DH likes that there are some things the mom will be the first to do with DSD, but he also knows that frankly that's just how the cookie crumbles and he must play with the cards he was dealt. If we were 2nd to take her, we would just be grateful to have the opportunity. I will ask my husband to read this and take everything into consideration. But, whether its now or later, something does need to be done when it comes to reviewing the custodial papers. Court might just be inevitable My DH was just crushed and has really just had it.

 

[Robbi]

But your husband doesn't have custody, and isn't raising her.

Having sole custody of a child carries lots of burdens and responsibilities. This child's mother is the one who who makes the difficult decisions. She's the one who is there when the child is sick, or scared. She's the one who will be at the parent teacher conference if her grades fall after an absence.

I'm not saying that your DSD should or shouldn't go, but if your husband wants to be considered "JUST AS important" in her life, then he should have fought for joint custody from the beginning.

Dad might not have wanted his daughter pulled apart in a custody battle.
I've seen it and it isn't pretty. The kids grow up hearing crud about the non custodial parent resent them. Later they realize a lot of whaat they told were lies and they end up resenting the custodial parent.
It doesn't always occur this way, I realize. Unfortunately, though it happens too often.

 

[Ciciwoowoo]

Cobright, that was brilliant advice!

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

Thank you for your insight. We have discussed talking with her again or sending her a letter on our own. We have also discussed, before this goes any further, to make sure DSD would want to come along with us. If she doesn't that is okay. If she does we will take her choice into consideration when taking the next step forward. We don't want it to be a he said she said thing, we just wanted to be able to take a family vacation that included a very important part of our family. I don't think my DH likes that there are some things the mom will be the first to do with DSD, but he also knows that frankly that's just how the cookie crumbles and he must play with the cards he was dealt. If we were 2nd to take her, we would just be grateful to have the opportunity. I will ask my husband to read this and take everything into consideration. But, whether its now or later, something does need to be done when it comes to reviewing the custodial papers. Court might just be inevitable My DH was just crushed and has really just had it.

I'm confused by this. You said earlier that your reason for not telling the ex is that she couldn't be trusted to keep a secret and you thought it would be hurtful to the child to know about the trip if it might fall through.

Now, it might fall through, but you plan to talk to her about it?

 

[LovinPooh]

I just wanted to say good luck op! Kids and divorce is so hard. Esp when parents dont see whats in the best interest of the child.
Hope all works out

 

[thelittlethings]

I'm confused by this. You said earlier that your reason for not telling the ex is that she couldn't be trusted to keep a secret and you thought it would be hurtful to the child to know about the trip if it might fall through.

Now, it might fall through, but you plan to talk to her about it?

The ONLY reason we MIGHT have to tell her is because we still might go. We have been planning this for awhile and we also have a 4 year daughter we don't want to be left in the dust as well. IF we go we don't want DSD to think we didn't try to take her with us. Our 4 year old will not be able to withhold such exciting news like this. And if we don't tell DSD we tried her mother might turn around and tell her we didn't. You just have to know this woman I guess to know exactly where we are coming from. I asked my DH if he would like to put the vacation off for when DSD could go but he doesn't think we should press on the brakes and put our life on hold because of the mother. Putting it on hold for DSD is different but right now, October is the best time for DH to go and that's why custodial papers need to be looked at. (I should of pointed out, these papers were written in 2007, when DH had a completely different job and schedule.). If we don't get these changed, waiting till summer isn't really an option for us to go and we would want DSD to know why we decided to go when we did and why she isn't able to go with us at this time. We under no circumstances would tell her to make her mother look like the bad guy. We just don't want her resent us for something we had no control over.