Mission Space Interior Photo

If they had instead followed their basic mission of whole-family entertainment and combined these funds into one whole-family attraction, it would have been much more of a benefit to AK. They wouldn't have even needed to read the surveys, but still would have addressed the concerns

You are forgetting the most important decision making factor here - money. Both of the additions at AK were relatively inexpensive to install. I believe Aladdins magic carpet ride was also introduced that same year. What you are expecting to see will take alot of financing to provide and the above changes were probably a simple way to alleviate an immediate need. We are dealing with a corporate entity first and foremost.

M:S is a big ticket item. Epcot has a unique set of challenges due to its concept and attraction size. I am sure the WDW organization has considered how to include the non-riding visitors within this exhibit.

I have not read the mission statement of WDW but family entertainment is the main focus - and that is exactly what we are all being provided with. There really is something for all of us to smile about. For every attraction you pass by there are two or three for you to enjoy. This is true no matter who you are.
 
They did not "split up" the family but they did "split" the family in terms of who rode and who chose not to. The whole family does typically stay together at the parks - and I believe this to be true of most entertainment venues we go to.
I agree. There have always been rides in WDW that not everyone could/would ride. As such, some members of a family might sit one ride out, but that doesn't "split the family up". Nor does it violate Walts desire to have a park that the entire family could enjoy together.
I really do not see so much of a trend issue.
Niether do I. I find it really interesting that when some people want to agrue one point they say that the trend in new rides is leading to "preschoolerization". Then it comes time to argue another point and all of a sudden the trend is for teen/adult oriented thrill rides.
 
Crusader, I think d-r's question is about using "Space Mountain", "Walt" and "right from the start" in the same sentence. To me, "right from the start" would be around July, 1955. Space Mountain opened in 1975. Walt passed on in 1966.
 
Well, I must be either stupid or blind (no comments from the peanut gallery :) ) because I clicked on the link at the top of the thread - and several links within the WDW Magic site - and never saw a pic of the ride vehicle. I hit Refresh a couple times in case that was the problem, but nada. Help?
 

I find it really interesting that when some people want to agrue one point they say that the trend in new rides is leading to "preschoolerization". Then it comes time to argue another point and all of a sudden the trend is for teen/adult oriented thrill rides.
Although it's not clear who "some people" might be, so I can't be more situation specific, the phenomenon you describe doesn't have to be viewed as duplicity.

This medium has limitations, and often we all find ourselves trying to say what we believe is the same thing, in a slightly different way, hoping to make a point more clear.

If the complaint the other poster is trying to crystallize erupted in them as a feeling that "we used to get E-tickets like Pirates and Haunted Mansion that everyone could go on, now we get either kiddie rides or thrill-tickets... but not the kind of whole-family E-ticket show-stoppers we used to get."

While groping for words to describe that complaint, it might not be so hard to imagine someone opining both "preschoolerization" and "thrillization," trends alike in appealling mainly to subsets of families.

We've all spent a lot of time trying to define "Disney Magic" in terms we can agree on, but it's too ephemeral a concept to be captured that cleanly. Perhaps some people are now trying to express Disney Magic in terms of what it's not... "kiddie rides" and "thrill rides" are both _not_ the definition of Magic.
What you are expecting to see will take alot of financing to provide and the above changes were probably a simple way to alleviate an immediate need. We are dealing with a corporate entity first and foremost.
Goodness, but there's a yard sale of directions I could take this one.

I think I'll attack this by agreeing with you... We are definitely dealing with a corporate entity, first and foremost. Most particularly, we are dealing with a corporate entity who, during the same approximate time period that "the above changes" were happening, was busily spending $5 billion on a cable station and Power Ranger reruns. The phrase "a lot of financing to provide" sounds as though you want us to believe money was difficult to come by for Disney, and that's not the case.

Disney had the same $5 billion and change available that Oriental Land Company had. OLC wanted Tokyo DisneySea, Disney wanted a cable channel, Power Rangers, and DinoRama.
For every attraction you pass by there are two or three for you to enjoy. This is true no matter who you are.
No, it isn't, either. There are more things in Heaven and earth, crusader, than are dreamt of in your philosophy... including people who can't or won't go on any attractions at all.

-WFH
 
"we used to get E-tickets like Pirates and Haunted Mansion that everyone could go on, now we get either kiddie rides or thrill-tickets... but not the kind of whole-family E-ticket show-stoppers we used to get."
I know the point such a person is trying to make when they say this, but I do have a hard time agreeing completely. You see, even the "whole family" E-ticket rides of yesteryear that many mention are not exactly for the "whole family". Take HM and Pirates, for example. I don't find these to be "whole family" attractions. Many kids will be scared by both, and many parents will object to the content of both when it comes to their children (ok, maybe Pirates a little less now since the women aren't being chased and accosted any longer ;)). A ride doesn't have to be a thrill ride to be too intense for many to ride it.

I have always seen WDW as having a balance. You need rides for little ones, rides for eveyone, and rides for big ones. I don't think there is a developing trend either way. I think the parks were designed this way from early on, and I don't think it violates Walts goal to have a place the entire family could enjoy together.
Perhaps some people are now trying to express Disney Magic in terms of what it's not... "kiddie rides" and "thrill rides" are both _not_ the definition of Magic.
Again, I don't know that I agree with this statement. First of all, we aren't necessarily talking about "kiddie rides" and "thrill rides" that you find at your local carnival of Six Flags. Let's call them "Disneyfied" kiddie and thrill rides. Secondly, part of the Magic of Disney is that balance of different types of rides that ultimately provides something for everyone, and in a way that only Disney can do. If, in fact, it is possible for someone to argue both "preschoolerization" and "thrillzation" trends at the same time, is that not evidence that the balance is being maintained?

I know, I know, you ask "what about the middle ground?", but I wonder if there ever really was as much middle ground as people seem to think. Maybe it is time for Mr. Curling to consume some more bytes and list those "whole family" E ticket attractions and we can delve into that further.
 
Originally posted by gcurling
Crusader, I think d-r's question is about using "Space Mountain", "Walt" and "right from the start" in the same sentence. To me, "right from the start" would be around July, 1955. Space Mountain opened in 1975. Walt passed on in 1966.

Thanks for explaining. Posting occasionally from whatever they call the time zone in Japan means that I am missing the "flurry periods" of posts and coming along later. Well, it is 2 am here now though so you east coasters should be up and at em. Anyway, that's what I couldn't figure out. Space MT. opened in Disney World first, then in Disneyland...so I couldn't figure out if crusader was being sarcastic (because Walt didn't build it from the start) or being serious (in that it has been there a long time)... I got it now, thanks crusader-
DR
 
I guess family splitting is very subjective. Even the “family rides” can cause considerable stress – as Mr. Kidds alluded, try and get a four year old on the ‘Haunted Mansion’ some time.

What strikes me about the recent trends is that all seem to be done in a lurching, reactionary way. Not enough for kids – suddenly a handful of shopping mall rides show up. Not popular with teenagers – we get a blitz of stomach churners. There really is nothing in the middle - and certainly nothing that even attempts to please anyone outside of their demographic cliche.

Disney is simply reacting to their problems in the quickest, easiest and cheapest ways possible. To me that's sad because it’s certainly possible to construct an intricate show attraction that will appeal to teenagers of today just as ‘Pirates of the Caribbean’ thrilled teenagers thirty years ago. And it’s equally possible to have a thrill attraction that a wide section of the audience can enjoy (which is where I think ‘Soarin Over California’ really shines). For a company that used to pride itself on innovation, falling back to the simple "teens = puke" formula just sit well.

This is all too similar to what you hear around Hollywood. According to the conventional wisdom, the only way to get the teen audience you need a high volume rap soundtrack and women shaking their…er…talent in the camera every five seconds. That’s the easy way. And it ignores the tremendous popularity of something like ‘The Lord of the Rings’ that has none of that, just quality and imagination. And I’ll put up the long term appeal of ‘Rings’ against ‘The Fast and The Furious’ anytime. Sure, the good stuff is harder to do and probably more risky, but the rewards are greater too.

And that’s why I must hold onto my “get a life” disappointment with ‘Mission: Space’. Disney is going after easy thrills with one. It just comes off as extremely lazy; they could have done so much more. Sure, we'll get a thousand postings from fifteen year olds with an Internet connection about how kEwL 'Mission: Space' is. But in a couple years, much like 'Test Track' and 'Rock 'n Rollercoaster' - it's just going to be something to plass the time until the next thrill comes along.
 
I'll still wait to form my opinion on M:S and where it fits on the innovative - reactionary continuum, but other than that, is it possible that I agree with an entire posts from the esteemed AV? As a puking teen might say............Oh! my! gaWd! - Get Out!!!
 
Applause for AV.

Secretly, I am in BobO's camp...I love thrill rides. But that's what I have Six Flags for. To build 'em every year, higher and faster. Ride it once or twice, cheer, and then never go back to the park again until they build the Ultimate Pukemaster 3000.

What I don't want to see is Disney building rides that fade in popularity because they are a done once, done it enough type ride.

Splash Mountain is *always* busy. Every year, every season, every time we go (your mileage varies of course if the park is empty). Is M:S gonna be that perennial crowd pleaser? Does Disney need to build those anymore? Should we expect Disney to give us a Splash Mountain classic experience every other year or so?

Some would argue, no, we don't need M:S to be a Classic attraction because there is so much to enjoy at WDW now.

Boy. That is just backwards thinking. When a park is first built, that's when you add the As, b, and c rides. Fill the park out by giving the entire family something to do for a whole day...even two days as in the case of the MK and Epcot.

THEN, keep adding Ds and Es, while updating and freshening up the A,B, and C rides that lose popularity.

Ei$ner's model is to build a park with few of each, and then, IN MY OPINION, add Heigh Restricted rides at the best cost/wow ratio rather than at the Wow/cost ratio.

In other words, Mike puts cost first, HR second, and last WOW. I love listening to and debating the rumors of this new ride...and right now I'm still excited but the excite-o-meter is on the decline.
 
These don't split up our family..."whole families" come in lots of different shapes and sizes...
The point is they split up more than the less-restrictive rides.

See guys, I thought it was going the other way, toon town, flik's fun fair, spinners everywhere, kidcot fun stops, character meals everywhere, all sorts of rumors about toning down attractions, kiddie shows (playhouse disney stuff), that show in front of the castle, rafiki's planet watch and camp minnie mickey, etc.
Its going BOTH ways. The discussion was focusing on the thrill direction. But, yes, kiddie rides/attractions are popping up just as fast. They are moving away from attractions that are more on the middle ground and providing the extremes. They are TARGETING MARKET SEGMENTS instead of staying true to the philosophy on which the parks were built.

I agree. There have always been rides in WDW that not everyone could/would ride. As such, some members of a family might sit one ride out, but that doesn't "split the family up". Nor does it violate Walts desire to have a park that the entire family could enjoy together.
Geez, DK.....as many times as you've brought up "shades of grey", I would think you would have been able to see it here. Yes, some kids cannot experience Pirates and the HM for practical reasons. The key is SOME. The fact is, MANY kids can and do enjoy these attractions, particularly Pirates.

But when the rides start including height restrictions, and physical experiences that are meant to "challenge us", it is no longer an option for those children, and MORE families are excluded. Further, some adults are excluded as well, for they either cannot handle such rides, or simply don't want to.

Again, its a shift on the spectrum towards MORE exclusion, its not going from all-inclusive to all-restrictive.

I really do not see so much of a trend issue.
Niether do I.
Look at the dates on the rides. Throw in the Matterhorn, which opened around 1970 and currently carries a 34" height requirement, and Indy which opened around '94 and carries a 46" height requirement.

Before 1992, 2 attractions in 4 parks. Once Space is open, 9 in 5 parks. If Gemini went in as described, add at least three more. That doesn't even consider DCA, which has NINE height restricted attractions in an already skimpy park, with a 10th on its way.

Its one thing to say you like the trend, but quite another to claim it doesn't exist.

What strikes me about the recent trends is that all seem to be done in a lurching, reactionary way. Not enough for kids – suddenly a handful of shopping mall rides show up. Not popular with teenagers – we get a blitz of stomach churners. There really is nothing in the middle - and certainly nothing that even attempts to please anyone outside of their demographic cliche.
Very well said, though I wouldn't say NOTHING, but would say very little that's significant.

You are forgetting the most important decision making factor here - money. Both of the additions at AK were relatively inexpensive to install.
Didn't forget it at all. One relatively cheap whole-family ride would have done more for AK than two VERY cheap "targeted" attractions.
 
I'll still wait to form my opinion on M:S and where it fits on the innovative - reactionary continuum, but other than that, is it possible that I agree with an entire posts from the esteemed AV?
Well, hey, if you do, then I can say I agree with every word of YOUR post...

I think I'm a "tad" more skeptical than you about M:S, but am still hoping to find my skepticism un-warranted.
 
...try and get a four year old on the ‘Haunted Mansion’ some time.
Just a personal experience not really meant to prove anything.... At two, my son was fine with HM. 11 months later, almost 3, he had a brief meltdown when heading to the Doombuggies, but was quickly reassured by Pops and all went well. At 3 1/2, had no problem, and is looking forward to riding it on our next trip at 4 1/2.

Yet he will not watch Ghostbusters because he is terrified by the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.

Go figure.
 
I would agree with AV that disney shouldnt build a thrill ride just to say they have a thrill ride. But what they should do is build some thrill rides with a great story line. That is what was done with TOT and Indiana Jones at DL and could easily be done at a theme park in wdw. And not some cheap cloned coaster like RNRC but build something unique with a great story line. Their is alot of great technology out there that could be used to create a great themed thrill ride if they are willing to do.
Airlarry while i agree that disney shouldnt build parking lot coasters with no theming like SF does, if you do find great coasters one or two times is NEVER ENOUGH!!! The thrill of a great ride doesnt go away while one that is medicore will quickly become a been there/done that attraction with no need for mutiple re-rides.
 
Originally posted by raidermatt
Yet he will not watch Ghostbusters because he is terrified by the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.

Go figure.

I don't blame him! That thing still kind of freeks me out too. :earseek:

Like you said:

"Go figure" :)

I think we might have a support group forming here ;)

JC
 
Its one thing to say you like the trend, but quite another to claim it doesn't exist.
Perhaps you need to take the discussion out of the context of E tickets when discussing the trends for rides in Disney parks. Sure, perhaps the 'trend' for E tickets is height restricted. Likewise, the 'trend' for B, C, and D's might be for the kiddos. OVERALL, there really isn't a trend, but a balance.
Geez, DK.....as many times as you've brought up "shades of grey", I would think you would have been able to see it here. Yes, some kids cannot experience Pirates and the HM for practical reasons. The key is SOME. The fact is, MANY kids can and do enjoy these attractions, particularly Pirates.
I hear you. If what you want to say is that Disney used to make E tickets that more people could potentially enjoy than they do today, I'll go with that. However, don't try and pass the old E tickets off as something that everybody enjoyed together. I'd bet you that there is a much higher percentage of guests that can't/won't/don't experience these old E tickets than you think. I'm not sure that the "middle ground" that you feel is being ignored now was ever that expansive.
 
DK, I think the list of attractions that were geared toward the "entire family" covered all of Disneyland, WDW's MK and Epcot with very few exceptions. The "kiddie-only" attractions were limited to just a few (as were the thrillers.)

Now, today, many of the attractions that were on that list aren't as appealing as they were the day they opened. But, I'd say that the vast majority of attractions were established with the goal of having every member of the family (or as many as possible) enjoy them. Honestly. That was a MAJOR goal of Walt when he designed his park.
 
"However, don't try and pass the old E tickets off as something that everybody enjoyed together."

I think the big difference is that when people didn't want to go on the "old" E-ticket attractions, it was out of more-or-less personal choice, i.e. the child was too scarred by 'Pirates of the Caribbean'.

The new trend is that children are now being prohibited from new attractions because of the height restrictions. Even the new half-speed bumper cars at California Adventure have a higher restriction than the Matterhorn or Big Thunder.

It's one thing for a child to work up the courage for a ride (a rite of passge here in Southern California). It's another for Disney to take that decision away from people. It's no longer that the guests "can't/won't/don't experience" a ride - the choice has been taken away from them.
 
Sure, perhaps the 'trend' for E tickets is height restricted. Likewise, the 'trend' for B, C, and D's might be for the kiddos. OVERALL, there really isn't a trend, but a balance.
If you view it like a see-saw, yes, there is some balance. There's the height-restricted E-tickets at one end, and the kiddie ABCD's at the other (mostly AB's). Perhaps it does balance out the scales.

But a see-saw is not how Disney originally made the effort to keep themselves balanced. The idea was more of a bell-curve. The bulk were distributed close to the middle. Yes, there was some stuff at the edges. Not really at the edges compared to the thrill-parks of the world, but still, a few things that got out there, like the Tea Cups. Likewise, there was Dumbo at the other end. But there was much more stuff in the middle.

Its two completely different ways of maintaining a balance. Again, one can argue the merits of one or the other, but you can't realistically claim there is no difference. Clearly, there is a great potential impact on the various markets that past offerings appealed to, as well as the future offerings.

If what you want to say is that Disney used to make E tickets that more people could potentially enjoy than they do today, I'll go with that.
You can stop there. That's really it. The attractions were grouped more in the "hump" of the bell curve, as opposed to the edges of the see-saw.

When I've said "whole-family" in the past I've sometimes tried to qualify it, but find it cumbersome to do it everytime.

I'm not sure that the "middle ground" that you feel is being ignored now was ever that expansive.
Again, I can only point you to the attractions considered more "exclusive" today, and ask you to note the dates. Prior to the existence of these attractions, what attracted guests?

But, I'd say that the vast majority of attractions were established with the goal of having every member of the family (or as many as possible) enjoy them. Honestly. That was a MAJOR goal of Walt when he designed his park.
Yep. Its a well documented fact.

It's no longer that the guests "can't/won't/don't experience" a ride - the choice has been taken away from them.
Also very true.

The new trend is that children are now being prohibited from new attractions because of the height restrictions. Even the new half-speed bumper cars at California Adventure have a higher restriction than the Matterhorn or Big Thunder.
You know, this is a very good point. When you look at the older parks, its harder to spot this trend, because it takes a long time to change them. But when you look at the newest park, you get an idea of what Disney's current vision is for a park. It opened with EIGHT height restricted attractions. What's been or will be added?

Tower of Terror
Playhouse Disney
Three kiddie attractions in A Bug's land
A fourth kiddie attracion in A Bug's land, but it still has a height requirement.
Alladin (replacing Blast)

Only one attraction can be called anything close to a "whole family" attraction (Alladin), and its a replacement.

Then there's the recent additions at WDW. Magic Carpets, and Tri Spin for kiddies, and Primeval Whirl for adults (48" requirement).

Space is coming, most certainly with a height requirement (anybody know what it might be?).

Only Mickey's Philharmagic could be a whole-family deal, but it wasn't even important enough for Disney execs to mention when asked about what's coming at WDW.

Gemini? Heavily weighted at the extremes.

Lets not forget the Yeti Mountain proposal for AK.

Once again, its one thing to say this is the right direction, but you just can't say it's not a change in direction.

I really think some of this is the result of taking guest surveys too literally. When guests say "there's not enough to do for my kids", its not always the best solution to plop in a spinner. Walt understood that while parents want to make their kids happy, they want even more to make their whole family happy. Its just that when they take a guest survey, the boredom of their child is likely first and foremost in their mind.

(Same idea applies to teens, btw)
 
Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, Disney needs to add a non-height restricted feature attraction (I'm beginning to hate the terms abcdefandg tickets).
Honestly, this is much more at the heart of the matter than the feature attractions (I think I like that better also...) that have height requirements.

Its not that I think they should never add height restricted attractions, or never step further out on the thrill scale.

Its that they are doing this INSTEAD of non-height restricted feature attractions (NHRFA's?????).

Much more tougher to balance it all today.
Maybe, but there is also much more in the way of technological resources available to accomplish this. Just as movie effects have advanced over the last 30 years, the potential for using these effects in theme parks has advanced as well. It just takes some creativity and effort to pull it off.

Somebody, somewhere pointed out that the bar has been raised. No doubt that is true. But its true in just about any business. If you want to remain top dog, you can't complain about it, you have to relish the challenge of continuing to top it. Such is the nature of progress.
 











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