Mission Space Interior Photo

We've been down the segmented attraction philosophy road before. It seems WDW is building more and more attractions that divide the family into groups, rather than provide for every member of the family to enjoy them together. M:S will be yet another attraction that my daughter and I will experience while my wife waits on the sidelines.
 
Not really Mitros -

There have always been a low percentage of thrill rides at WDW. We can probably count less than 10 being the number of attractions which truly fit this category. This will always be the case. These parks were built with everyone in mind - and attract every generation. The "magic" you experienced as a child will never disappear. Transport rides and Fantasy themes will sustain the test of time.

But it would be great to give more to those of us who've moved away from Dumbo and It's a Small World during the midpoint of our lives - only to happily welcome them again with the next generations of our families.
 
Point taken - but why question the entertainment value from a mere photograph?
Because its there...

The imagineers should be well equipped to successfully entertain us during the "mission" component of this ride. Afterall, entertainment is where Disney has invested itself quite extensively.
Part of the reason for the concern is that the recent track record in this area is, shall we say, sketchy...

M:S is more than that - it is providing a high tech thrill experience which will challenge our physical capabilities. This is something I am anticipating far more than the theatrical effects.
Really, it can't challenge us all THAT much. It might be fun and different, but there's going to be many people trying this that wouldn't be able to handle something that would challenge you (I'm guessing you can probably handle quite a bit...)

But further, the "show" is the way in which Disney differentiates itself. Without theatrical effects (or whatever type of "show") effects, M:S will just be another thrill ride that somebody else will top within a few years.

Is is safe to presume these are the same folks who pass over Tower of Terror, Rock-N-Rollercoaster, and Space Mountain?
Probably, but there is also concern that if this is pushing the envelope of physical thrills further, MORE folks are going to pass it up. Also, the attractions you name DO have pretty good "show" elements. RnRC is a little shaky in this area, but still, it is more than just a roller coaster in a building.

I'm not saying we know that Space will fall short in the show department, only that it IS very important for a Disney attraction.

Yea, except disney seems to be replacing a number of non-thrill attractions with thrill attractions.
This does seem to be the trend...
 
Actually Crusader, it is true. The trend has been in favor of height required (HR) attractions in the last 10 years:

HR attractions that replaced non-HR attractions
Alien Encounter
Test Track
Mission: Space

Brand new HR attractions
Splash Mountian
Tower of Terror
Rock n Roller Coaster
Kali River Rapids
Dinosaur
Primeval Whirl

Non-HR attractions shuttered with no replacement
20K Leagues
Skyway
Explorer Canoes
Mike Fink Keel Boats
Superstar TV / Doug Live
Hunchback
Carousel of Progress
Time Keeper
 

But it would be great to give more to those of us who've moved away from Dumbo and It's a Small World during the midpoint of our lives - only to happily welcome them again with the next generations of our families.
But see, here's where we aren't connecting. I don't want Dumbo and Small World clones anymore than you do. Yes, these classics have a place in the parks, but I also want the NEW Small World, and NEW Pirates....Attractions that use the latest entertainment technology just as these classics did when they opened. They may not push the physical envelope, but they push the ENTERTAINMENT envelope. That's what has separated Disney from everybody else, not that they had the fastest coaster, or first simulator.

I think what's happening is that its been so long since Disney really wow'd us with a non-thrill ride-attraction, we are forgetting that it is possible. But look at something like Illuminations. It doesn't have the tallest or biggest fireworks around, yet most would say its better than most fireworks shows that DO have the biggest and best shells.
 
gcurling - I think everyone will agree an HR category ride does not automatically classify it as a "thrill" ride. If you scan that list you will see a number of attractions which prove my point. Also, these were not all "replacement" rides - some are part of entire theme parks which dwarf statistically in comparison to the overall totals.

raidermatt - I do connect with what you are stating. There is a need to entertain us using state of the art technology especially where the Magic Kingdom is concerned. It would be hard to believe something isn't in the design phase at least.

What I disagree with you on is this:

Really, it can't challenge us all THAT much. It might be fun and different, but there's going to be many people trying this that wouldn't be able to handle something that would challenge you (I'm guessing you can probably handle quite a bit...)

M:S is a centrifuge which when spun at a certain g-force will give the rider the experience of being weightless. From what I have read - it is being designed to come as close as reasonably possible to a flight training experience. Which part of this does not sound physically challenging to you?
 
Crusader, what I think Matt is pointing to is that a theme park attraction can only challenge us so much, beyond that nobody would be able to survive it. If it challenges us too much, we either puke, pass-out or both. And, each person has their own breaking point. If it's TOO challenging, then nobody but a very select few folks could enjoy it.

Also, I was not trying to equate height requirement with thrill. Just showing that attractions have become more and more restrictive in recent years.
Also, these were not all "replacement" rides - some are part of entire theme parks which dwarf statistically in comparison to the overall totals.
Only the ones I labeled such were replacements. and the list of "new" non-height requirement attractions (not simply replacing one for another) in the last 10 years does NOT dwarf my list. It is, in fact, smaller by several attractions.
 
gcurling - Points well taken.

Keep in mind though that an HR category ride is more inclined to be labeled as such by the legal department which will be a continuing trend in the litigation arena.

I am hoping M:S will be successfully tooled to allow as many of us as possible to ride - I know the puke factor is a big problem right now.
 
Crusader, what I think Matt is pointing to is that a theme park attraction can only challenge us so much, beyond that nobody would be able to survive it. If it challenges us too much, we either puke, pass-out or both. And, each person has their own breaking point. If it's TOO challenging, then nobody but a very select few folks could enjoy it.
Yes, this is pretty much what I meant. I happened to see a feature on one of our local TV news broadcast on the training done by military fighter pilots using the centrifuge. Basically, many of the pilots lose their lunch or pass out during this portion of the training. The centrifuge is set to exceed what fighter pilots experience in actual flight, but still, this attraction will not really come close to ACTUALLY simulating a spaceflight. Its has to be watered down so the general public can handle it without training and fitness tests.

The question is where the line is drawn, and if we expect Disney to push this envelope each time, the attraction will appeal to fewer and fewer people because the physical limitations of the public are not advancing with the technology. There's only so far they can take this.

If M:S is just a one time attempt to push the physical experience, that's one thing, but if we expect them to continue doing that, its quite another. Especially since somebody else is bound to top the physical experience with something else in the near future. A truly great entertainment experience is much more difficult to top.

Also, I was not trying to equate height requirement with thrill. Just showing that attractions have become more and more restrictive in recent years.
Same here...

I am hoping M:S will be successfully tooled to allow as many of us as possible to ride - I know the puke factor is a big problem right now.
Yeah, me too. I've heard conflicting things about how bad the puke factor is though. We'll see...
 
I cannot seem to lay-off this topic. So, to the cheers of the horse-beaters everywhere I offer this: (Crusader, this is not aimed at you, just more of my ranting in general.)

I divided every WDW attraction into three categories. 1. "Whole Family" Attractions, 2. Somewhat Segmenting Attractions, and 3. Family Splitters.

To save kilobytes, I've listed categories 2 and 3 below.

Somewhat Segmenting Attractions
Big Thunder Mountain Railroad (1980)
Star Tours (1989)
Body Wars (1989)
Splash Mountain (1992)
Honey, I Shrunk the Audience (1994)
Its Tough to be a Bug (1998)
Sounds Dangerous (1999)
Kali River Rapids (1999)

Family Splitters
Space Mountain (1975)
Tower of Terror (1992)
Alien Encounter (1996)
Dinosaur (1998)
Test Track (1998)
Rock n Roller Coaster (1999)
Primeval Whirl (2001)
Mission:Space (2003)

Notice the dates. Until the last ten years, very few WDW attractions split the family up. I'd say that's a trend.
 
Is the typical type of WDW attraction (as defined by GC) simply "growing up" with the families as MK, Epcot, etc. get older.
I don't know if this is DISNEY'S thinking, but I have seen the thought expressed by posters on either this board or others. (not important when or where, so no quotes!;) )

If this is the reasoning, its pretty dangerous, because if you try to grow with your demographic, an unavoidable problem eventually appears: Your demographic dies. Or goes to the old folks home, whatever...


And, I'm sure one logical response is that young families still come with young kids (like us with Scoop Jr.).
Very true...one family graduates to thrills, and another watches Jr. take his first steps. A few years later, those kids that graduated to thrills will watch another Jr. take his first steps... "Its the Ciiiiircle of Life....."

But, we know that a non-family splitting ride could have definitely been built for less than $150 million. So, why wasn't it built instead of M:S? Was it strictly a sponsorship issue?
Very good question... The key is that if the non-family-splitting ride is to be a true Eticket that can drive attendance, it can't be The Magic Carpets of Stitch. Its going to require creativity, showmanship, new effects, and old effects used in new ways. Still expensive, but harder to PROVE that it will be successful. Its less of a "sure thing".
 
but still, this attraction will not really come close to ACTUALLY simulating a spaceflight. Its has to be watered down so the general public can handle it without training and fitness tests.

True - but it will have to be spinning at quite a speed to achieve the weightless effect.

If this is the reasoning, its pretty dangerous, because if you try to grow with your demographic, an unavoidable problem eventually appears: Your demographic dies. Or goes to the old folks home, whatever...

Not necessarily when you factor in the population growth. The lodging expansion at WDW alone is a testament to that. I don't believe the thinking behind these decisions is to grow with us. There does need to be a bit of envelope pushing here. With M:S - we really are unprecedented. It is not a typical amusement type E-ride. It is really something to be able to achieve on this level and will attract a steady flow of riders.
 
Re: Family splitters and the like -

Yes - M:S will be a family splitter rather than a "whole family" attraction and

Yes - there are more of these rides than in the past.

But again it is a welcomed change. They never had enough attractions which fell into this category. A whole family attraction is a slow transport type ride. You simply cannot build an empire of this magnitude with only one level of motion to offer your guests.

There has to be a full range of entertainment from the slow moving to the high tech.

Families are typically split whenever they attend any amusement type activity. It is more common than not and easily accomodated.
 
A whole family attraction is a slow transport type ride. You simply cannot build an empire of this magnitude with only one level of motion to offer your guests.
Gosh, I'd say they did a damn good job of it.
Families are typically split whenever they attend any amusement type activity. It is more common than not and easily accomodated.
Walt's three primary reasons for getting into the theme park business were the three things he disliked about the theme parks of his day:

1. Sharp practices of midway "carnies"
2. General dirtiness
3. The fact that they had little that the whole family could do together.
 
I think Walt also recognized the need for some thrill since he was intuitive enough to build Space Mountain right from the start! And which attraction had the biggest draw back then???????
 
So, what's the point? Well, I now appreciate, more than ever, how incredibly daunting a challenge WDW has. To create a place which keeps the attention and interest of young married couples without kids to retirees with an empty nest to families with toddlers or teens.
Yeah, it is quite a challenge. Frankly, I think it might be one of the few impossible things to accomplish. As long as there is a certain segment of the population that puts physical thrills above all else, there just isn't much of a way to be #1 on their list and still be #1 on the list of those who don't place such a premium on physical thrills.

So, Disney should probably stick with this strategy:
Or should Disney simply say, like some other parks, we are going to have something for everyone, but we are going to focus primarily on [FILL IN THE BLANK].
Except that I don't think this is exactly the right way to phrase it. I'm not sure what the best way is, but essentially, Disney parks have been in the business of providing creative, innovative, appealing, whole-family entertainment in a way that nobody else does. I see no reason to change that.

When they start saying "How can we get at this market segment, or that market segment", the danger is the efforts will hurt them in keeping the guests they already have won over.

The tough question is whether anyone, including Disney, has ever (and if so examples) or really ever can create a new attraction broad enough to perk the interests of all these demographics.
Certainly I think Disney has done this before, with Pirates, Haunted Mansion, and some others. I either wasn't around or wasn't paying much attention when these opened, so I can't speak from experience, but I'm pretty sure that while these were a huge hit in the "family entertainment" area, they still got at least some of the thrill seekers to take note. They were unique and entertaining.

They've also swung the pendulum a bit in the other direction with the "Mountains" (Matterhorn, Space, Big Thunder, Splash). Attractions that provided more of a physical experience, but aren't as restrictive as they could have been, and still provide excellent stories and "show".

The above two categories are likely where Disney should stay. When you do this right, you don't completely lose the teens, and you maintain your position with the rest of the family entertainment crowd as well. And lets face it, that family entertainment crowd is where the dough is....if not, Six Flag's would be building 4 park destination resorts.

Now, I'm not saying M:S can't be a "mountain-like" attraction, one that is still more family entertainment than physical thrills. But from what we hear, its likely to be more restrictive from a physical standpoint.

If you need evidence as to the dangers of trying to provide different experiences for all "market segments", check out Dinorama. They read "not enough to do" and "nothing for the kids" on a survey and BAM! Triceratops Spin, carny games, and Primeval Whirl. Gives the adults something to do, and the kids something to do. Granted, its possible to better execute these kind of ill-conceived ideas, but they do still remain ill-conceived ideas.

If they had instead followed their basic mission of whole-family entertainment and combined these funds into one whole-family attraction, it would have been much more of a benefit to AK. They wouldn't have even needed to read the surveys, but still would have addressed the concerns.

Families are typically split whenever they attend any amusement type activity. It is more common than not and easily accomodated.
Yes, as gcurling said, it IS typical and common....in other parks. The intention was that this would be one of the differentiating points for a Disney park. Disney is losing that differentiation.
 
Originally posted by gcurling
I cannot seem to lay-off this topic. So, to the cheers of the horse-beaters everywhere I offer this: (Crusader, this is not aimed at you, just more of my ranting in general.)

I divided every WDW attraction into three categories. 1. "Whole Family" Attractions, 2. Somewhat Segmenting Attractions, and 3. Family Splitters.

To save kilobytes, I've listed categories 2 and 3 below.

Somewhat Segmenting Attractions
Big Thunder Mountain Railroad (1980)
Star Tours (1989)
Body Wars (1989)
Splash Mountain (1992)
Honey, I Shrunk the Audience (1994)
Its Tough to be a Bug (1998)
Sounds Dangerous (1999)
Kali River Rapids (1999)

Family Splitters
Space Mountain (1975)
Tower of Terror (1992)
Alien Encounter (1996)
Dinosaur (1998)
Test Track (1998)
Rock n Roller Coaster (1999)
Primeval Whirl (2001)
Mission:Space (2003)

Notice the dates. Until the last ten years, very few WDW attractions split the family up. I'd say that's a trend.

These don't split up our family..."whole families" come in lots of different shapes and sizes...
 
Originally posted by thedscoop

Based upon GC's list, it would seem that WDW is tilting toward the "without kids" or at least "with kids/teenaged" bracket.


See guys, I thought it was going the other way, toon town, flik's fun fair, spinners everywhere, kidcot fun stops, character meals everywhere, all sorts of rumors about toning down attractions, kiddie shows (playhouse disney stuff), that show in front of the castle, rafiki's planet watch and camp minnie mickey, etc. It has seemed to me that they were trying to focus on the preschoolers instead of the teens or young couples - it is funny how different perceptions can be based upon what things you want more of.

DR
 
Originally posted by crusader
I think Walt also recognized the need for some thrill since he was intuitive enough to build Space Mountain right from the start! And which attraction had the biggest draw back then???????

crusader, are you being sarcastic, because I don't get it-

DR
 
d-r -

My remark about Space Mountain was simply to remind everyone that the parks have always had a variety of attractions to offer its guests.

I would like to clarify my point regarding the family split issue. Families aren't being split in the "literal"sense here. Family members have always had to make personal choices when it came to enjoying the attractions - from the inception of the parks.

For example:
Space Mountain
Motor Speedway
Teacups
Swiss Family Robinson Treehouse
Pirates of the Caribbean
Canoes
20000 leagues under the sea

these rides were never able to accomodate all guests. They did not "split up" the family but they did "split" the family in terms of who rode and who chose not to. The whole family does typically stay together at the parks - and I believe this to be true of most entertainment venues we go to.

I really do not see so much of a trend issue. Again, slow moving transport rides and theatre shows are the only attractions designed for the entire market. This has never been the situation at WDW - where every attraction accomodated every guest. This in no way detracts visitors or moves away from the initial intentions of Walt Disney, and I do not believe the new park additions will either.

M:S will be the only real thrill ride at Epcot. Test track is great but it does not meet the full criteria. There is plenty of room to include this type of attraction and still have WDW be that magical place Walt dreamed of.
 











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