MiniDV vs. HDD - better for editing?

cryssi

<font color=blue>Kabocha<br><font color=green>Look
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Sep 30, 2004
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Camcorder question!

DH picked up some camcorder magazines at Fry's yesterday, and I was reading through them. I think I've mentioned before that he wants that Canon pro HD camera. Anyway, I read an article that said that MiniDV was still best for frame to frame editing b/c the MPEG compression format the HDD cameras use. Hope I got my facts right, I'm just recalling from memory (correct me if I'm wrong please!). there was a thread last week or so about tapes being on their way out so I was just wondering about this...

What do you think?

thanks!
c
 
I am by no means a Camcorder expert, but I'll try to answer the best I can. Hopefully someone with better technical knowledge can correct any mistakes.

First, let's disambiguate the terms HD and HDD so that no one gets confused. In the camcorder world HD is coming to mean High Definition (either 720 or 1080 lines of vertical resolution compared) while HDD is coming to mean Hard Disk Drive.

The next thing to clarify is that mini-DV and hard disks are storage mechanisms and not formats. You could write using the same format, compression schemes, and encoding schemes to both media. In fact mini-DV and Sony's Digital8 both use the DV video format. It's not the storage mechanisms that makes a difference in editing (after all, you have presumably copied the data onto the computer before you started editing); it's the format.

The most common formats used on mini-DV tape are DV (for standard definition recording), HDV (for high definition), AVCHD or H.264 (for high definition). DV uses a compression technique in which each frame (one picture in the video) is compressed all by itself. HDV uses mpeg2 compression and AVCHD uses mpeg4 compression. These compression techniques use a key frame and then the next several frames rely on information from the key to decompress them.

Let me try to make that a bit more clear. If I shoot 1 second of video using a DV camcorder at 30 frames per second, I get 30 frames. Each frame is stored with all of the information needed to display that frame. If I shoot the same 1 second using mpeg2 or mpeg4, I might get 1 key frame followed by 14 other frames and then another key frame and another 14 other frames. To display frame 8 (just to pick one at random), I need the key frame and the 8th frame. Mpeg2 and Mpeg4 can fit much more information on the same amount of tape (which is why they are so popular for HD). The downside, as you noted, is that they are harded to edit.

There are two reasons why they are harder to edit. First, there is that key frame/non-key frame business. The computer has to look at more frames to display just one frame. Second, the compression rate is higher and requires more computations to decompress. In other words, the computer needs to look at more stuff and do more work on it just to show one frame.

As far as I know, every hard disk based camcorder uses a form of either mpeg2 or mpeg4 compression. So in that sense, video recorded from a mini-DV camcorder in standard definition will be easier to edit. On the flip side, it'll take up a lot more space on your hard drive while you are doing all of that editing.

One thing that is likely to improve is that your future computer will probably have special chips for decompressing mpeg2 and mpeg4 video streams. That will make reduce the performance difference considerably.

As for tapes being on the way out, I think I mentioned that. I'm not sure whether they are dying or not, but they are certainly going from being the overwhelming choice of camcorder makes to being one of many choices. No one at the Consumer Electronics show seems to be putting serious effort into improving standard definition mini-DV camcorders and some manufacturers are shrinking their model lines. The situation may stabilize so that there are mini-DV camcoders, HDD camcorders, and flash card camcorders. On the other hand, it may be the start of a trend where tape fades away.

There are a lot of worthwhile differences between tapes, hard disk drives, and flash cards. Aside from formats, there is convenience, cost, reliability, durability, longevity, and compatibility concerns. The great thing about having options is that you have a lot of choices. The bad thing is that you have to make a choice and that sometimes requires an annoyingly large amount of research.

Personally, I'm holding out for a high def camcorder. I love the Canon XH A1, but I'm nervous about HDV as a standard. There is also the small matter of it being shockingly expensive. I'll keep waiting.
 
Thanks Mark. I was looking for your post about the tapes, but couldn't find it (didn't look hard enough?).

We currently have a Digital 8 camera that still works great. Our wedding footage was done on miniDV, but since we have no way to transfer the footage to our tera drive, here it is, over 1 year later and the tapes are still in a bag on the floor...DH thought of getting a small miniDV for the footage and our upcoming WDW trip, but is wrestling with the idea of spending money on that, or saving for his Canon (I can't even keep track of which one he wants). Downside to getting an HD pro camcorder is...can't/wouldn't want to lug that thing around WDW! :rofl:

He wants to go HD, and the (small) consumer HD is $1300 or something like that...so...?? What to do? Guess we'll keep thinking about it...
 
Have you looked at the Canon Elura 100?? It's not too hard on the wallet, you could connect your Digital 8 camcorder though it's AV out ports(or vhs-c or vcr too) to the Elura 100 through it's AV in port and convert them to digital and upload them to your computer(via Firewire) for online and or dvd burning, also you'd be able to play your wedding Mini-DV tapes on you tv with the Elura 100 and also upload them too(via Firewire) to your computer for your needs. It's very small so there's no lugging around with it. It's what I have and I love it for using in the parks(which is 99% of what I use it for.)

The Elura 100 was not continued for this year, but there are still plenty of stores or better yet online retailers that are selling it, and the blank mini-dv tapes are wicked cheap online if you shop around. I've seen it listed as low as around $299 from some questionable shops online but it's usually in the $350 price range. I purchased mine from Amazon out the door and shipped for about $355, which was cheaper then if I'd bought it at a physical store back in August. I did however use Circuit City and Best Buy to go get a feel for the camera and physically compare to other similar Mini-DV camcorders.;)

Also later on when he has his HD pro cam you could still have the Elura to shoot some vids with yourself.
 

ou could connect your Digital 8 camcorder though it's AV out ports(or vhs-c or vcr too) to the Elura 100 through it's AV in port and convert them to digital and upload them to your computer(via Firewire) for online and or dvd burning

There is no need to do that. The Digital 8 camcorder almost certainly has a Firewire (IEEE 1394) port and connect to a computer just like a mini-DV camcorder. Digital 8 and mini-DV are essentially the same thing written to different size tapes.
 
yup, sure does...when we were doing editing, we had to request that people film in digital8 so we could import the footage...
 
My bad, I was thinking Digital 8 cams were more like vhs-c for some reason.:confused3
 
Mark is absolutely correct on the keyframe issue, but some editors will still let you do frame-accurate editing no matter what the video source is.

And, that's really only an issue if you are keeping the video in the original format. I believe miniDV records in DV format and then needs to be re-encoded to mpeg2 format if you're authoring a DVD, so the keyframes are all recreated during the re-encoding, as you're essentially creating a brand-new video, not just editing bits out of the original. I think the DVD camcorders (and probably HDD ones?) are using DVD-compliant video to begin with, so it wouldn't need to be re-encoded, just have edits done then the resulting file re-saved, which is much faster (it's essentially just copying the data, not modifying it.)

This encoding is the part that takes a long time and must be done from any source if you're not using DVD-compliant video to begin with. It also must be done if you want the video is any other format (like an .avi or .wmv to watch on your PC - this is most commonly some form of mpeg4 at this point.)

I would probably lean towards miniDV at this point. I too would love a high-def camcorder but I think we've got a couple more years before they're what I would consider affordable.
 
we use Premiere, if that makes any difference...:confused3
 














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