Maybe Disney was right about closing down Pleasure Island after all...

[Quellman]

Not sure about Erwin Pearl but Art of Shaving is owned by Gillette, so they can take the hit of a bad first year. Though I don't expect them to do much better, anything you could buy there you could buy on Amazon for 1/2 of the price, their mark up is insane. My DH's mid range safety razor was $35 off of Amazon, Art of Shaving starts at $45, when he went into the one at our local mall he left unimpressed.

I wonder what the actual number of people is who have turned away from modern razors and back to double or single edges? I still suspect it is a quite niche market. It also seems to be a weird thing for people to want to pick up while on vacation. After the initial outlay of cash for a bowl and razor the only consumables are the actual razors, soap (eventually), and brushes (even more eventually). It can be a hobby to many people, but I think that is an even smaller subset of the niche market. I can buy a razor sample pack online for cheap, find a brand I like and agrees with me and then buy a bulk order. I'm set. I also by local soaps to help out local crafters. They often contain fewer harsh chemicals and ingredients. I fear that the Art of Shaving is primarily selling an image. For those looking for more info on shaving check out /r/wicked_edge.

 

[minnie-apple-mouse]

Well...we're back to square one on "state of the union"

Why should we even talk about nightlife, clubs, brew pubs, bar and grills?

Disney springs isnt meant to draw jim from yeehaw junction or Javier from Oviedo into the fold...

It's meant to bring Harold Von Fulstenschmerz III and his 18 member family from their over water sequoia units at wilderness lodge over for some really high priced martinis at the Indy bar and for some "light shopping" at coach and prada next to days of Christmas...

The targets are not about "expansion" or "inclusion" anymore...

Millenials are rapidly being exposed as the poster children of what exactly a post middle class world is going to look like.

Just two weeks back...it was reported that 42 million millenials live at home in the US...

My question is: how'd the other 341 find the cash to get their own party pad?!?

It doesn't stop there... Facebook, apple, google, research groups have all done studies/tracking that the comparative "disgruntlement" shown on social media by millenials is something like 3x Any other demographic.

That's staggering...

What am i saying? Is that the y's don't have the CASH to go clubbin...and so the clubs will die quickly.

Disney may have been prescient on PI.

This new generations bought into a model that doesn't work for them...like it did the boomers and the Xers...

And that was: go to college, party a little, get good job, party some more, settle down with cute wife or stud muffin...have kids...pay for everything...buy DVC, pay for grandkids APs and mouse ears...

Notice "live with parents to 44 with $300,000 psychology degree from Syracuse" isn't in the lifeplan.

Quite interesting how social evolution doesn't always invoke the needle pointing up, huh?

Great post/thread/read...thank you!

(No disrespect for Syracuse...by the way )

True... But not to this argument really...

I love tommy bahama and lily Pulitzer...

But I'm rapidly becoming an old fart

They specifically wanted out of the club
Business...

Now it's more a "bar and grill" approach going up...with REALLY expensive wings and margaritas..

Well see how it pans out...but I don't see catering to the young crowd...

More the middle aged farts in tommy bahama

Very interesting read. Thank you for sharing.

So the question for me then becomes this: If the Millennials were struggling to afford the $20 cover and $10 drinks, how are they going to afford the $110 surf & turf at Boathouse? Sure, there are more reasonable options on the menu, but I'm not convinced that you're going to spend an evening eating & drinking at Disney Springs any cheaper than you could at the DTD w/ PI of old.

I know you all want what's best for WDW, and don't complain just to complain.

You have made it clear there is no market for night clubs, and not a huge market for anything actually. But this isn't Disney's fault.

But what should they have done with DTD in your opinions if you don't mind me asking?

Hopefully it's not a huge $5 food court-because that's about all Millennials defined above could afford.

 

[Brocktoon]

I kinda figured Disney was targeting the 'Springs' revamp for the same audience as the Food & Wine festival. The F&W fest is not cheap by any means and even the low cost seminars are $15. Most of the higher priced F&W events sell out within days or less. Trader Sams seems to still be doing well even with higher price point drinks. And then think about all the Disney hard ticket events and extra premiums that sell out so fast.

I'm not exactly sure what the demographic would be, but based on the above, Disney is probably seeing plenty of guests spending big $$$, not worried about costs, and still trying to keep up with demand. I could see the high end Springs places as a way to additionally tap into that market.

There's a market for it (as I'm one of them), but I wonder if they're overestimating how big it is? I wouldn't think The Edison, Boathouse, STK, or Morimotos are going to be very popular with families ... I can already predict the 100s of messages say how over priced they are.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I think the goal of Disney springs is inline with Igerian theory...

And that is to ramp up the prices and " drag the clientele" up with it.

When they closed PI...I thought it was to shut out the customers...even though they werent crowded... Are they claiming that there was "no money" in drinks? At their prices? And it was pretty low overhead for Disney.

Not buying...two things always succeed:

Bars and pizza
Places.


But I digress. I actually will probably like springs more than most when it's done... I'm
Sure of it.
It's what I could enjoy...especially because its attached to Saratoga springs...I like that for multiple angles.

But...I strongly disagreed
With the "lost decade" since they started to shutdown PI.
It's my same problem as usual.

Less for higher costs...closure without addition.

Now they're "making up for it"...i suppose.

But I'm not sure they needed a large brick and mortar district in this culture. It's kinda risky...and the fundamental idea that they should have an apple store next to world of
Disney is a legitimate complaint...not mine...but I could see it from a purist angle.

I'm
Actually encouraged... Cautiously...as it stands now.

Wait...I'm
Never positive... I take it back.

But the "something for everybody" is not on the plans as I see them.

 

[Jon84]

Interesting piece on "the death of the nightclub" from the UK newspaper The Guardian. Basic point of article is that millennials are much less interested spending their nights in dark, loud smoky clubs than their predecessors. Yes, the examples in the article are from Britain, but I can see the same things it describes also happening here.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...-no-longer-going-to-night-clubs-10449036.html

Night clubs haven't been smokey for years since the smoking ban

In the UK there is now a much bigger lean towards bars and lounges than night clubs. Near me a 5 club complex is being converted to family restaurants and a soft play area with one nightclub replacing a disused building on the park. Smaller bars are popping up in smaller towns.


Also people would rather go and see a top DJ at a festival. There's been a large increase of Dance Music based festivals between May and September (think small scale Ultra in Miami). Taking your own drinking and camping with mates is a huge thing that historically only really people into Rock music enjoyed.

Linking this to Disney Springs, yes I think globally there going to be a downturn in clubs. But I think TDO are in a position where Pleasure Island was deserted during the day, and expensive to 'police' in the evenings.

 

[minnie-apple-mouse]

I think the goal of Disney springs is inline with Igerian theory...

And that is to ramp up the prices and " drag the clientele" up with it.

When they closed PI...I thought it was to shut out the customers...even though they werent crowded... Are they claiming that there was "no money" in drinks? At their prices? And it was pretty low overhead for Disney.

Not buying...two things always succeed:

Bars and pizza
Places.


But I digress. I actually will probably like springs more than most when it's done... I'm
Sure of it.
It's what I could enjoy...especially because its attached to Saratoga springs...I like that for multiple angles.

But...I strongly disagreed
With the "lost decade" since they started to shutdown PI.
It's my same problem as usual.

Less for higher costs...closure without addition.

Now they're "making up for it"...i suppose.

But I'm not sure they needed a large brick and mortar district in this culture. It's kinda risky...and the fundamental idea that they should have an apple store next to world of
Disney is a legitimate complaint...not mine...but I could see it from a purist angle.

I'm
Actually encouraged... Cautiously...as it stands now.

Wait...I'm
Never positive... I take it back.

But the "something for everybody" is not on the plans as I see them.

Liking your new found optimism.

 

[Madteaparty001]

At least in my city night clubs aren't very popular, it's all about farm to fork and micro brews. That is, in my opinion, what is popular with the current 20's, 30's, and even some 40's age group. I believe Disney Springs is showing that shift in preferred venue.

 

[skier_pete]

Very interesting read. Thank you for sharing.

So the question for me then becomes this: If the Millennials were struggling to afford the $20 cover and $10 drinks, how are they going to afford the $110 surf & turf at Boathouse? Sure, there are more reasonable options on the menu, but I'm not convinced that you're going to spend an evening eating & drinking at Disney Springs any cheaper than you could at the DTD w/ PI of old.

But that's the point - PI was initially marketed mostly for young people. Young people don't have any money to spend - so Disney Springs is not even attempting to market to them. It's targeting the same thing the rest of Disney is. Middle/Upper class families. Certainly some of it is for locals, but it also to tempt vacationers to shopping/dining.

I am and probably never was a good market to target, but personally what I've always wanted is nighttime entertainment for adults. The dance clubs at PI never really appealled to me, but the Jazz Club, the Comedy Club and the Adventurer's Club did. Even as a huge AC fan, I could understand that the format of it never could make money as an individual entity, and once PI was not a "one ticket fits all" format that it was doomed. However, I would like SOME sort of nightly entertainment that I can't get at home. Things like Splitsville or the AMC I simply don't get. I can go bowling or watch a movie at home. Give me something unique to Disney, whether its a restaurant or a bar or whatever. One idea - how about a Karaoke Bar.

 

[GreatLakes]

At least in my city night clubs aren't very popular, it's all about farm to fork and micro brews. That is, in my opinion, what is popular with the current 20's, 30's, and even some 40's age group. I believe Disney Springs is showing that shift in preferred venue.

This is true around me as well. Craft breweries and small locally owned restaurants serving healthier food with local ingredients are what is growing and they are doing well around here. Most of the people in them are in their 30's and older and seem to be either white collar professionals or in an artistic field based on my conversations with them. I could happily go the rest of my life without stepping foot in what was a traditional night club. About 2 months after turning 21 I was looking for quieter places where I could hold a conversation without screaming over music.

I think DTD also shifted in the clientele they want there. They don't want the young locals who come in the evenings to drink a little and try to pick up girls. They want people who cause less trouble and spend more money. I suspect they saw a trend where the vacationing families left DTD earlier while Treasure Island was open and they would rather keep them there longer while also attracting locals that are looking for a place to grab a craft beer and higher end food. That is just my feeling on the changes.

 

[Brocktoon]

I think DTD also shifted in the clientele they want there. They don't want the young locals who come in the evenings to drink a little and try to pick up girls. They want people who cause less trouble and spend more money. I suspect they saw a trend where the vacationing families left DTD earlier while Treasure Island was open and they would rather keep them there longer while also attracting locals that are looking for a place to grab a craft beer and higher end food. That is just my feeling on the changes.

I think Disney is going for an older demo and the big $$$ for Disney Springs may be in upper/middle class adults. But they need to have some stuff for families ... so I guess throw in Splitsville and AMC for family activities. I'm actually looking forward to relaxing with a margarita at the new stand, wandering over the Boathouse outdoor bar for lunch and grabbing food/drinks at the Hangar. I think that may be their bread/butter.

I think a karaoke place or a piano bar like Jellyrolls/Howl at The Moon could be a great addition ... But on non weekend nights I'm not sure how well they do business as they aren't family targeted

 

[skier_pete]

I would also wish they would consider a "Comedy Warehouse" type place. They could easily do something similar to the original where you pay a $10 cover for a say 60 minute show, and then sell drinks during the show. They could run 4-5 shows a night, advertise the earlier ones as more family oriented and later ones as "18 and up" though still keep them "Disneyfied". Unfortunately it doesn't seem that entertainment is the way they want to go.

 

[Andrew015]

You have made it clear there is no market for night clubs, and not a huge market for anything actually. But this isn't Disney's fault.

But what should they have done with DTD in your opinions if you don't mind me asking? Hopefully it's not a huge $5 food court-because that's about all Millennials defined above could afford.

My takeaway from the article and ensuing conversation thus far has been this:

• Millennials could no longer afford the night club scene, so demand began to wane.
• As a result, TWDC pulled the rip cord on PI.

In response, TWDC builds a mega shopping/drinking/dining complex that is even higher in price. A few conclusions can be drawn:

1. TWDC isn't concerned about the Millennials, and rather, is targeting the more affluent demographics (an eerily similar theme from another thread in which we went round' & round'...).
2. TWDC just wanted out of the "nightclub scene".
3. The article is full of it. The ~43 million (50%, by the way) of Millennials that are living out of their parents' basements should have plenty of money saved to spend clubbin' at DS.

IMO, #1 makes the most sense. We're seeing evidence of this trend everywhere else around property. This fits in well with that theme.

#2 has some merit, but I think it's a weaker argument. I think they wanted "out" of the club scene - not because it wasn't profitable or because it was detrimental to their image. Rather, it wasn't geared to the right demographic. See #1 above.

#3 is my poor attempt at humor, which by the looks of things, isn't striking a note with people or is going right above their heads. I promise, I won't quit my day job.

In general, I'm actually excited for certain aspects of DS, and think the overall project will be a success. I am not excited for the high-end "Mall of America" aspect, as IMHO, this dilutes the brand and lessens the "Disney experience".

I'm not sure where you're getting the notion that I ever suggested that Disney "ought to cater to the Millennials with nothing but $5 quick service". I'm simply pointing out a shift (see #1 above) that is undeniable across property. It would, however, be nice to see a restaurant option (or two) with a decent ~$30 steak that fits in somewhere between the $15 burgers at Rainforest and the $48 New York Strip at the Boathouse, but perhaps that's just wishful thinking... (unless I've missed an announcement somewhere along the way)...

 

[Brocktoon]

My takeaway from the article and ensuing conversation thus far has been this:

• Millennials could no longer afford the night club scene, so demand began to wane.
• As a result, TWDC pulled the rip cord on PI.

In response, TWDC builds a mega shopping/drinking/dining complex that is even higher in price. A few conclusions can be drawn:

1. TWDC isn't concerned about the Millennials, and rather, is targeting the more affluent demographics (an eerily similar theme from another thread in which we went round' & round'...).
2. TWDC just wanted out of the "nightclub scene".
3. The article is full of it. The ~43 million (50%, by the way) of Millennials that are living out of their parents' basements should have plenty of money saved to spend clubbin' at DS.

IMO, #1 makes the most sense. We're seeing evidence of this trend everywhere else around property. This fits in well with that theme.

#2 has some merit, but I think it's a weaker argument. I think they wanted "out" of the club scene - not because it wasn't profitable or because it was detrimental to their image. Rather, it wasn't geared to the right demographic. See #1 above.

#3 is my poor attempt at humor, which by the looks of things, isn't striking a note with people or is going right above their heads. I promise, I won't quit my day job.

In general, I'm actually excited for certain aspects of DS, and think the overall project will be a success. I am not excited for the high-end "Mall of America" aspect, as IMHO, this dilutes the brand and lessens the "Disney experience".

I'm not sure where you're getting the notion that I ever suggested that Disney "ought to cater to the Millennials with nothing but $5 quick service". I'm simply pointing out a shift (see #1 above) that is undeniable across property. It would, however, be nice to see a restaurant option (or two) with a decent ~$30 steak that fits in somewhere between the $15 burgers at Rainforest and the $48 New York Strip at the Boathouse, but perhaps that's just wishful thinking... (unless I've missed an announcement somewhere along the way)...

Yup, I'm in agreement with you and going with door #1 as it does seem to fit in with a lot of other things on-site.

And also agree with #3 ... it's not a millennial or money thing ... nightclubs have just run their course and I think promoters are trying to find excuses instead of facing the facts of a dying industry / business model

 

[iamsarahpotts]

Just as an anecdote: as a (late) 20-something who wouldn't be considered wealthy by American standards, I (and I think a majority of friends in my age group) much prefer drinks, eats and shopping as a fun vacation activity (or really a fun at-home activity as well) over the night-club scene. I'd echo the sentiment that micro-brews, local eateries and cool shopping experiences are taking the place of "clubbing" in my area.

Interests change and it seems Disney is just picking up on that.

 

[skier_pete]

A comment back to the fact that Millennials don't go clubbing:

Millennials also aren't getting their drivers licenses when they turn 16. Apparently the "freedom" that we used to find from being able to drive just isn't a priority with the youth today. It's another symptom of social media. You don't have to go out to be social. For the "adult" generation, being stuck at home meant you were all by yourself or even worse "hanging with your parents". Millennials lock themselves in their room to "hang out" with their friends on-line. Getting together isn't as much of a priority as it was for previous generations, at least that's how it seems.

 

[Andrew015]

A comment back to the fact that Millennials don't go clubbing:

Millennials also aren't getting their drivers licenses when they turn 16. Apparently the "freedom" that we used to find from being able to drive just isn't a priority with the youth today. It's another symptom of social media. You don't have to go out to be social. For the "adult" generation, being stuck at home meant you were all by yourself or even worse "hanging with your parents". Millennials lock themselves in their room to "hang out" with their friends on-line. Getting together isn't as much of a priority as it was for previous generations, at least that's how it seems.

Definitely some merit to that. However, for previous generations, costs for things like cars, gasoline, insurance and a night out on the town were significantly cheaper (even in adjusted inflationary dollars). Also, previous generations weren't paying ~$100/month for cell phone service and another ~$150/month for cable and internet service, plus X-box subscriptions, iTunes, etc. While it might be easier to be "social" without going out today, there's certainly a cost associated with the privilege, and as a result, Millennials have other financial obligations that make going out prohibitive that didn't exist for previous generations. Coming from a Millennial, I'd much rather hang out at PI than sit in my room on Facebook "being social".

IMO, this all circles back to cost, and I believe that DS will be even more cost-prohibitive for the average Millennial to "mingle" and drink/eat socially than was PI. Again, to my previous post, I really don't believe that TWDC cares that they're edging out this particular demographic. They're a bit more concerned with selling bungalows to the Louis Vuitton crowd to care.

 

[Jon84]

This is true around me as well. Craft breweries and small locally owned restaurants serving healthier food with local ingredients are what is growing and they are doing well around here.

Over here theres a massive thing for gourmet burger joints and american style smokehouse type restaurants.

Oh and every pub now does pulled pork (badly).

 

[MakiraMarlena]

Disney also wanted to rent out the space, rather than run it themselves.

Skier Pete may have something. My nephew is 17 and not in the least interested in getting a drivers license. He may have to if he wants to go to college locally.

And why are they not putting a craft brewhouse in Disney Springs?

 

[Andrew015]

And why are they not putting a craft brewhouse in Disney Springs?

It's hard enough to stomach paying $7.00/ea for a Bud Light. I, for one, won't be shelling out $12.00 - $14.00/ea for a Bell's Two-Hearted Ale or the like. Even if I had "funny money" to throw around. IMHO, they've priced the baseline too high to successfully justify the existence of a craft house. Maybe I'm in the minority with that opinion.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

By the way...I do want you to quit your day job, Andy...

I will too...and we can embark on the research project to find
Enough evidence to prove that bob Iger has...in fact...invested properly in wdw.

Enough people tell me I'm
Wrong that the evidence HAS to be out there...somewhere...

Right?

I know that many of my "detractors" (by their choice...I like the discussions) think those of my ilk will be put in our places with the BIG announcements this weekend...

But I'm gonna go with the house on that wager.
And the house keeps its money while trying to take mine. Like golden oak.

Honesty...it's "can't lose" for me
Either way...