Maybe a Teacher or School Administrator Can Answer This:

[Mermaid02]

Originally Posted by Mermaid02
Good teachers are worth their weight in gold and should be compensated that way, poor teachers should be let go and find a profession they are better suited for. How can anyone disagree with that???

Do you disagree with my above statement?

I absolutely agree with your statement.

In my neck of the woods, tenure doesn't exist, and poor teachers are let go. I'm sorry that it isn't that way in your school system. However, making sweeping generalizations about teachers and teaching as a whole will not fix this problem.

Since I mentioned tenure I don't think my statement was a sweeping generalization.

I STILL believe that when many are punished for the action of few it is laziness on the authorities part- since there are cameras to see WHO is going in and out of the bathroom and a sign in sign out process I think that is sufficient. Loss of recess and a "silent" lunch does NOTHING but punish kids who did NOTHING.

 

[gina2000]

If I added up all the teachers my son has had whose methods I did not respect, I would find at most 2 or 3 teachers. He's sixteen and that is a rather low percentage.... 10% max. Can you truly say that in your organization you respect everyone and believe they are doing the best job they can?

It's easier to complain about the one situation that is not to your liking than to reflect on all the positives you have experienced during a longer span of time.

JMHO.

OP, the first situation leaves the administration in the position of hoping that someone will come forward, confess or point fingers toward the culprit. The other situation is wrong.

 

[golfgal]

Since I mentioned tenure I don't think my statement was a sweeping generalization.

I STILL believe that when many are punished for the action of few it is laziness on the authorities part- since there are cameras to see WHO is going in and out of the bathroom and a sign in sign out process I think that is sufficient. Loss of recess and a "silent" lunch does NOTHING but punish kids who did NOTHING.

Who stuffed the toilets and sinks???? See this is the problem-they don't know who did it, no one is going to tell on them even if they do know OR some kid will accuse someone just because they don't like them even if they know they didn't do it. Then if they DO find out, Mommy and Daddy are rushing up to the school because their Snowflake would NEVER do something like this. There was a high school in our area that caught kids drinking and kicked them off sports teams (per the agreement they ALL signed, parents and students, stating they would stay substance free during the sports season--all athletes in MN sign this) and a bunch of parents tried to sue the school. It is a no win situation no matter WHAT the school does. It isn't laziness.

 

[bettymae1121]

Peer pressure never worked when I was in school and it doesn't seem to be working in my kids' school either. The troublemakers never cared if the rest of the class was mad at them, they still kept doing the stupid things they did. I think they actually liked it when the whole class got in trouble with them because then they had company.

I agree that it makes a lot more to sense to punish just the offender or take privileges away from the offender. Then the good kids learn that there is an advantage to being good. When everyone pays for one person's stupid action, there is no incentive for doing what you're supposed to be doing even though other people aren't.

It's worse than that. Some kids will figure if they are being punished for something they didn't do, then they may as well go ahead and do what it is they are being punished for!!!

If a large number of students in a class or grade (or school) are breaking rules, then punishing the whole makes at least some sense. But when it's pretty clear that it's just a handful of kids causing the problem then I think the administration should work harder to find the culprets. And sometimes kids are just going to get away with it.

For the OP, having the kids sign in/out when they go to the bathroom isn't a punishment but it IS a good way to either catch the kids causing the problems or as a deterant agains future vandalism. I don't see the point in taking away perks from the whole student body however.

As always, just my opinion!

 

[Mermaid02]

Who stuffed the toilets and sinks???? See this is the problem-they don't know who did it, no one is going to tell on them even if they do know OR some kid will accuse someone just because they don't like them even if they know they didn't do it. Then if they DO find out, Mommy and Daddy are rushing up to the school because their Snowflake would NEVER do something like this. There was a high school in our area that caught kids drinking and kicked them off sports teams (per the agreement they ALL signed, parents and students, stating they would stay substance free during the sports season--all athletes in MN sign this) and a bunch of parents tried to sue the school. It is a no win situation no matter WHAT the school does. It isn't laziness.

I assume those parents LOST their suits?

Let's say someone says, "Janie did it" the school still needs proof.

They probably won't find out who did it- but they can prevent it from happening again with the cameras and sign in /sign out. I know there were MANY bomb threats at our school written on bathroom walls that weren't "solved" but they now have the sign in/ sign out system and no more bomb threats.

 

[golfgal]

I assume those parents LOST their suits?

Let's say someone says, "Janie did it" the school still needs proof.

They probably won't find out who did it- but they can prevent it from happening again with the cameras and sign in /sign out. I know there were MANY bomb threats at our school written on bathroom walls that weren't "solved" but they now have the sign in/ sign out system and no more bomb threats.

So how is having a new sign in/out procedure any different then having silent lunch for 2 weeks? It still effects those that didn't do anything wrong. Sure, cameras are great, but in a BATHROOM-nope, sorry, not a good idea. How about if the kids just learn their lesson and behave. It HAS been known to happen before.

 

[Mermaid02]

So how is having a new sign in/out procedure any different then having silent lunch for 2 weeks? It still effects those that didn't do anything wrong. Sure, cameras are great, but in a BATHROOM-nope, sorry, not a good idea. How about if the kids just learn their lesson and behave. It HAS been known to happen before.

The cameras aren't in the stalls- they are at the doors.

I don't think signing in or out of the restroom is a punishment- it's record keeping.

 

[bumbershoot]

OP, I don't know why. It didn't work when I was in school, and I can't imagine it works in the majority of schools now.

Especially since kids are taught not to "tattle", which many adults define as "letting an adult know that someone has done something wrong", a kid can be a bit confused about when they are supposed to tell adults things! Heck, on the DLR forum we had someone not want to tell a CM about a family that was doing something wrong, because they didn't want to tattle, just like they'd been taught in school.

And if the people doing the bad things are the "cool", popular kids, NO ONE is going to tell, and even if they did, the teachers and administrators (at least in the San Jose Unified School District from '75 through '87) won't BELIEVE them, because those kids are great and fabulous and wouldn't do that! Cool kid sprayed Binaca (does that still exist? "hot" minty breath freshener) in my friend's eye at a school dance...he was NOT punished even though my friend's night was ruined by an incredibly painful injury. He did it on purpose. 8th grade trip, I made an innocent mistake on where to meet the group, I got punished by missing the rest of the day's sightseeing (had to sit in the bus) when the cool kids (whose parents chaperoned) were sneaking out of the rooms at night, being seen by the drunk chaperones (we saw them before it was time to go to the rooms), and were not being punished. etc etc etc etc.

The non-popular kids aren't going to tell if it's the popular kids doing it...even if they would be believed...

Peer pressure works wonders at that age. I taught middle school for almost 20 years and though I tried to avoid punishing the whole class due to a few, at times it was the only way. After a few times, the others would get the few on the right track or rat them out. It isn't my preferred way, and I know some people use it to the extreme.

You probably had a unique class situation. Or I did. Alas, only way to tell is after the fact, after the damage has been done!

Peer pressure works when it's the PEERS choosing what to pressure others to do...not when the adults choose it...

And, once, again, the overall tone of several posters on this thread is that the teachers/administrators are out to get you and your child. How sad that educators are seen so often as "the enemy" today.

It's not just today...

When everyone pays for one person's stupid action, there is no incentive for doing what you're supposed to be doing even though other people aren't.

It's worse than that. Some kids will figure if they are being punished for something they didn't do, then they may as well go ahead and do what it is they are being punished for!!!

Although not everyone will react as extremely, the above is just what happened to DH. This is an at-home thing, but it has colored his whole life. At 6, he bought a candy bar for his mom at school. DH has always been a bigger human, well, at least since toddlerhood. His mom had him on a diet starting at 3 (though her version of a diet is a bit odd). It was hard for him to not eat the candy bar, as he wasn't allowed real sugar like that (he got Tab while his family got Coke, even at that age). But he did until the bus ride home, when some friends took bites out of it. He was 6 and thought that the only thing to do was to wrap it up and hope mom didn't notice. She did. And so did dad. Dad called him a liar, didn't believe his story. DH got punished, by old school parents in old school ways, for lying (parents could have asked his friends, but they didn't even have the decency to do that). And he remembers at THAT moment, he realized that he was going to get punished for things he didn't do...and therefore, he should do them. Started a lifetime of sneaking and lying for as long as he could without being caught.

NOw he's an out-lier...not everyone is going to go to that extreme. But plenty of people do get tired of being punished for things that other people do, when they have absolutely no control over those other people...very very demotivating...



****************

There was a high school in our area that caught kids drinking and kicked them off sports teams (per the agreement they ALL signed, parents and students, stating they would stay substance free during the sports season--all athletes in MN sign this) and a bunch of parents tried to sue the school.

Slightly related.

A few years ago, at a HS here in Tacoma, the football team was on its way to the championships (or whatever they are called). They had a few serious STARS on the team, amazing players. They felt they could do no wrong.

The coach made sure that everyone knew they *had to be* at the practice before (or the team meeting? not sure...eta, couldn't have been the DAY before, not enough time). If they weren't there, they weren't playing in the big game.

These kids didn't show up.

The coach told them that they would be cut them from the game.

And....almost the entire community...rallied...behind the players.

The coach ended up quitting. Retired, actually. He'd been the coach for that team for something like two decades, and no one backed him up on his good decision, because it would cost the team the big game. The administration stepped in and denied his decision.

It was awful. What the heck did those boys learn from that? Are they now in college taking bribes from the schools, getting money and cars...will they have the decency to give back trophies they earned while breaking the rules? Or will they think it's OK? After all, the whole city decried the coach for his decision to followup on the rule...

It all sucked. Coach is the father of my good friend...I heard most sides of the situation.

 

[dimimi]

I have taught for about 30 years. This is a very old fashioned way to discipline and highly ineffective. To the original poster, what part of the country are you from? I find these punishments more typical in the southern states. Also, to the orginal poster, even if some "group" punishment would work, signing out to use the restroom was enough. A silent lunch is not necessary.

I wouldn't be happy either! You should turn it around and ask the principal if one teacher forgets to turn in paperwork, if she is going to make the entire middle school staff stay after school!

 

[MM27]

I think it's sadder that poor teachers get tenure and can continue to do a crappy job without fear of any consequences.

I agree that poor teachers should not get tenure, but please don't believe that there are not consequences once someone has tenure. Tenure does not mean that you can't be fired. We have a couple of tenured teachers at my school that are currently being watched. They are making a paper trail on these teachers because you do need to have proof that there is a problem. If this wasn't in place, then any time the Superintendent's nephew or the principal's cousin needed a job, they could fire whatever teacher they wanted and hire one of them.

I've used group punishments before. It's not my main behavior system and it does work when used in certain situations.

I teach 4th grade and my school is big. When we walk from place to place in the school, I expect my students to be in a straight line, to be facing forward and to be silent. We practice this many, many times during the first few days of school. If one child is not following the line rules, I can say something to them and if they don't correct it, I deal with it. However, sometimes it's more than one student. I always give my students a warning. If the line continues to be noisy after that, I will have them stand on a line outside during recess to practice. My theory is, if you don't have the line thing down, I'm more than willing to help you get better at it. It usually only takes one practice day to fix the problem.

I did have a parent complain to me one year because she didn't like that I made her daughter stand forward in my line. She said that her daughter liked to look at the student work on the walls and I should really allow her to do that. After I stopped doing this I explained to her that her daughter could stay after school with me and she can look at whatever she wanted to, but during the school day she was going to follow my rules.

 

[golfgal]

I agree that poor teachers should not get tenure, but please don't believe that there are not consequences once someone has tenure. Tenure does not mean that you can't be fired. We have a couple of tenured teachers at my school that are currently being watched. They are making a paper trail on these teachers because you do need to have proof that there is a problem. If this wasn't in place, then any time the Superintendent's nephew or the principal's cousin needed a job, they could fire whatever teacher they wanted and hire one of them.

I've used group punishments before. It's not my main behavior system and it does work when used in certain situations.

I teach 4th grade and my school is big. When we walk from place to place in the school, I expect my students to be in a straight line, to be facing forward and to be silent. We practice this many, many times during the first few days of school. If one child is not following the line rules, I can say something to them and if they don't correct it, I deal with it. However, sometimes it's more than one student. I always give my students a warning. If the line continues to be noisy after that, I will have them stand on a line outside during recess to practice. My theory is, if you don't have the line thing down, I'm more than willing to help you get better at it. It usually only takes one practice day to fix the problem.

I did have a parent complain to me one year because she didn't like that I made her daughter stand forward in my line. She said that her daughter liked to look at the student work on the walls and I should really allow her to do that. After I stopped doing this I explained to her that her daughter could stay after school with me and she can look at whatever she wanted to, but during the school day she was going to follow my rules.

A common thing seen on anti-teacher posts here--"I don't like how you do something so my child should be able to do what I want them to because he is MY child." You are now going to get bashed because you have a "God" complex and teachers make up rules just for the purpose of torchering children

Does this mom know the booger picking mom?

 

[Mermaid02]

I agree that poor teachers should not get tenure, but please don't believe that there are not consequences once someone has tenure. Tenure does not mean that you can't be fired. We have a couple of tenured teachers at my school that are currently being watched. They are making a paper trail on these teachers because you do need to have proof that there is a problem. If this wasn't in place, then any time the Superintendent's nephew or the principal's cousin needed a job, they could fire whatever teacher they wanted and hire one of them.

I've used group punishments before. It's not my main behavior system and it does work when used in certain situations.

I teach 4th grade and my school is big. When we walk from place to place in the school, I expect my students to be in a straight line, to be facing forward and to be silent. We practice this many, many times during the first few days of school. If one child is not following the line rules, I can say something to them and if they don't correct it, I deal with it. However, sometimes it's more than one student. I always give my students a warning. If the line continues to be noisy after that, I will have them stand on a line outside during recess to practice. My theory is, if you don't have the line thing down, I'm more than willing to help you get better at it. It usually only takes one practice day to fix the problem.

I did have a parent complain to me one year because she didn't like that I made her daughter stand forward in my line. She said that her daughter liked to look at the student work on the walls and I should really allow her to do that. After I stopped doing this I explained to her that her daughter could stay after school with me and she can look at whatever she wanted to, but during the school day she was going to follow my rules.

But other places of employment don't have a tenure system and people arent' fired for "no reason". Not that it doesn't ever happen- but it's not something that runs rampant. IMO of course.

I have to play devil's advocate and ask why the artwork is on the walls if the kids aren't allowed to look at it during the day when in the halls Just had to ask.......

 

[taylor3297]

I have taught for about 30 years. This is a very old fashioned way to discipline and highly ineffective. To the original poster, what part of the country are you from? I find these punishments more typical in the southern states. Also, to the orginal poster, even if some "group" punishment would work, signing out to use the restroom was enough. A silent lunch is not necessary.

I wouldn't be happy either! You should turn it around and ask the principal if one teacher forgets to turn in paperwork, if she is going to make the entire middle school staff stay after school!

Interesting observation. Especially, since the teachers who used the punishing the whole class for something to the extreme (I mentioned in an earlier post) moved here from the northeast. So I really don't think it is just a southern thing.

As to the tenure, a tenured teacher can be fired with documentation. I have seen it occur several times. Until a teacher has tenure, the teacher can be fired without a reason given.

When I taught in Georgia, I did acquire tenure. Then the law was changed and new teachers could not receive tenure. Though those who could not acquire tenure, it was required to give a reason if a teacher was fired and the adminstration had to have the proper documentation.

 

[golfgal]

But other places of employment don't have a tenure system and people arent' fired for "no reason". Not that it doesn't ever happen- but it's not something that runs rampant. IMO of course.

I have to play devil's advocate and ask why the artwork is on the walls if the kids aren't allowed to look at it during the day when in the halls Just had to ask.......

25 kids walking in a line, kid number 12 is looking at the art work, stopping every couple steps to look at the next one, the kids behind her are bumping into each other, tripping on the kid in front of them, the teacher and the first 11 kids are half a hallway ahead, the kids get loud because they keep bumping into each other and disturb the 12 classrooms along the way. If they were kindergartners, set up 25 dominoes next to each other and push one over....

 

[Mermaid02]

25 kids walking in a line, kid number 12 is looking at the art work, stopping every couple steps to look at the next one, the kids behind her are bumping into each other, tripping on the kid in front of them, the teacher and the first 11 kids are half a hallway ahead, the kids get loud because they keep bumping into each other and disturb the 12 classrooms along the way. If they were kindergartners, set up 25 dominoes next to each other and push one over....

I know I know... I said I was playing Devil's advocate...... and I made a winky eyed smiley guy. In all seriousness though- if you don't want kids looking at the walls........ don't put posters or artwork up.

 

[golfgal]

I know I know... I said I was playing Devil's advocate...... and I made a winky eyed smiley guy. In all seriousness though- if you don't want kids looking at the walls........ don't put posters or artwork up.

That is a cop out attitude. The kids LOVE to see their artwork on the walls and there are other times they can look at it on the walls, just not when they are supposed to be moving from one room to another. Kids can learn to follow the rules.

 

[luvsJack]

Who stuffed the toilets and sinks with paper?

I don't know and dd says she doesn't know and neither do any of her friends.

Because it usually works. Dd12's entire grade loss recess because one boy wouldn't admit to throwing a stick at another kid. The class ratted him out, but the principal said he had to confess himself. Guess what - he did.

Not here it doesn't. They did the same thing when my 28 year old was in school it NEVER works. Jr. high kids just don't seem to want to rat each other out. This is a small school with only probably 60-75 kids per grade, so they all know each other and have to deal with each other in school, in activities, at church, etc.

I have taught for about 30 years. This is a very old fashioned way to discipline and highly ineffective. To the original poster, what part of the country are you from? I find these punishments more typical in the southern states. Also, to the orginal poster, even if some "group" punishment would work, signing out to use the restroom was enough. A silent lunch is not necessary.

I wouldn't be happy either! You should turn it around and ask the principal if one teacher forgets to turn in paperwork, if she is going to make the entire middle school staff stay after school!

I am in the deep south--south MS. And I agree, I thought signing in and out to go to the bathroom was enough.

You are right I should ask her that!! i am sure I will get a "that's different!"

 

[MM27]

But other places of employment don't have a tenure system and people arent' fired for "no reason". Not that it doesn't ever happen- but it's not something that runs rampant. IMO of course.

I have to play devil's advocate and ask why the artwork is on the walls if the kids aren't allowed to look at it during the day when in the halls Just had to ask.......

Nepotism runs rampant in public schools here in NJ. I got my job the old fashion way, by actually sending my resume to districts, but if you walk through many school buildings you will find that people are either related to someone or a friend of someone that has an in. It's a shame that it happens, but it does. One of the worst teachers in my school got her job because her father is friends with my principal.

As far as the artwork or student work that is hanging on the walls, if a child wants to look at that before or after school, they can knock themselves out and look. However, when they're with me, they are going to follow my rules. My classroom is not a democracy.

 

[Mermaid02]

Nepotism runs rampant in public schools here in NJ. I got my job the old fashion way, by actually sending my resume to districts, but if you walk through many school buildings you will find that people are either related to someone or a friend of someone that has an in. It's a shame that it happens, but it does. One of the worst teachers in my school got her job because her father is friends with my principal.

As far as the artwork or student work that is hanging on the walls, if a child wants to look at that before or after school, they can knock themselves out and look. However, when they're with me, they are going to follow my rules. My classroom is not a democracy.

I was feeling ornary and argumentative last night. I do understand the reasons behind your rules and other teachers may not have that rule, hence artwork allowed.

You can have nepotism in ANY workplace- I really don't think teaching has the corner on that- I still don't believe in tenure.

 

[golfgal]

I don't know and dd says she doesn't know and neither do any of her friends.

This should pretty much answer your question as to why teachers/administration does group punishments.