Maine Commission Moves to Ban Gender Specific Bathrooms, Sports Teams in Schools

dejr_8

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Could someone please explain how this makes any sense.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/04/0...s-ban-gender-specific-school-bathrooms-teams/
The Maine Human Rights Commissions taking heat over a proposal to ban schools from enforcing gender divisions in sports teams, school organizations, bathrooms and locker rooms, saying forcing a student into a particular room or group because of their biological gender amounts to discrimination.

The little girls' room won't be just for little girls anymore, if the Maine Human Rights Commission has its way.

The commission is taking heat over a controversial proposal to ban schools from enforcing gender divisions in sports teams, school organizations, bathrooms and locker rooms. It says forcing a student into a particular room or group because of his or her biological gender amounts to discrimination.

The issue came to light last year when the commission ruled that, under the Maine Human Rights Act, a school had discriminated against a 12-year-old transgender boy by denying him access to the girls' bathroom.

Now the commission aims to issue guidelines on how schools should deal with similar situations in the future. It would make Maine the first state to implement such guidelines for schools as young as preschool and nursery -- and even some private schools.

But not everyone in the state is on board with the current proposal.
Some school districts and organizations have criticized the commission for making its initial ruling without getting enough input from conservative groups, and then for coming up with proposed guidelines in what some described as closed-door sessions.

"The conservative side was never brought in on the discussion in the first place, if you look at who gave testimony, written testimony, etc., in the beginning,” Rev. Bob Celeste of Harrison told FoxNews.com. “When you only bring one side in, you’re not looking for an honest debate. You’re looking for an agenda.”

Once it came time to vote on the guidelines, the commission again came under fire for not doing enough to inform Mainers of the vote, and for not allowing the public to speak at the hearing where it was held.

“We found out about this hearing by accident. We were never informed of it,” said Celeste, who was the first person to speak out at the March hearing.

“When I went to the hearing I expected to ask, ‘Why are they doing this?’ And they said that they weren’t going to have public hearings,” he said. “I said ‘Mr. Chairman, it’s getting late, when are we going to be able to ask questions?’ and he said, ‘You can’t.’”

Celeste says he then walked out of the meeting, but other outraged citizens got very vocal after his departure and apparently persuaded the commission to postpone the vote.

Now those critics are looking to get their voices heard again at a public hearing on the issue next month.

"When we separate biology it gets very confusing for everyone," Mike Heath, president of the American Family Association of New England, told FoxNews.com. "Now we're talking about bathrooms where ladies will entertain the possibility of men being in the restroom with them, and every woman I've talked to has indicated that they wouldn't be comfortable with that."

With the law affecting schools ranging from nursery level to post-doctorate studies, Heath says he's concerned with the ramifications of opening up "this can of worms," especially when it comes to younger students.

“I get a little more upset with the topic when it touches on young children and what they’re going to have to think about and process,” he said.

Critics seem especially concerned about the mixing of genders in bathrooms and locker rooms. The commission's proposal reads: "Transgender students must be allowed access to the bathrooms that correspond to their gender identity or expression or, if they prefer, to existing single-stall bathrooms."

"There's not a whole lot of places a girl can expect privacy, but the bathroom should be one of them," said Celeste. "And there's not a whole lot of places a boy expects privacy, but the bathroom should be one of them. Married couples close the door when they go to the bathroom.”

Ken Trump, President of National School Safety and Security Services, says the guidelines set out in the commission's draft brochure pose some serious safety issues as well.

"If my kid walks into a girls' bathroom and sees a man in there, the child is going to instinctively feel that something’s wrong. If you create an entirely new climate where anything goes, you’re going to create increased confusion, and those with ill intentions could take advantage of that confusion and decreased ability to make a distinction," Trump told FoxNews.com.

"The reality is, every day we’re seeing more and more cases of exploitation of children and others, and this would be creating an environment where the risk is increased for that exploitation."

Because the commission suggests that people won't be obligated to supply medical documentation that proves they are transgender, Trump says the policy also paves the way for increased sexual activity on school grounds – both consensual and non-consensual.

"Educators at the middle school level struggle every day in trying to keep student hormonal issues under control so that the focus can be on education," he said. "We certainly don’t need to create an environment to accelerate and exacerbate the issue and further the experimentation, the inappropriate comments, inappropriate touching, groping, grabbing, sexual assaults and in some cases, rapes in schools."

Karen Kemble, the Director of Equal Opportunity for the University of Maine, says the university has not taken a position for or against the proposed guidelines, but she shared concerns over some of them, including schools' inability to ask for "proof" of sexual orientation.

"This would leave the institution without any way to determine the bona fide nature of the gender identity or expression," Kemble said in a letter to the commission.

"It is routine practice to seek documentation of non-obvious disabilities in the event of an accommodation request. Even in the case of religious accommodations, an employer may sometimes seek additional information regarding either the religious nature of the request or the sincerity of a particular belief," she added.

As an NCAA institution, Kemble says the University of Maine system could also face many hurdles when it comes to incorporating the guidelines into its athletic program.

"Some of the issues that we face are that the NCAA has rules that if we, for example, allowed a transgender student to participate in gender-segregated sport, then that may raise concerns about fairness and also may spark action by the NCAA, she said.

"We certainly want to have a welcoming environment and are doing everything we can to support the right to gender identity and gender expression," she added.

John Gause, counsel for the Maine Human Rights Commission, told FoxNews.com that the commission is still in the process of developing guidelines on how the Maine Human Rights Act "applies in the context of sexual orientation in schools and colleges."

"A date and location for the public comment session will be finalized in the near future," he wrote in an e-mail.

The commission said more information on the public hearing will be posted on its Web site once those details are finalized.

Neither Gause nor the commission's executive director, Pat Ryan, returned follow-up e-mails and phone calls seeking a response to concerns raised over the guidelin
 
This is what happens when idiots form an organization.
 

Wow, high schools struggle to keep kids of the opposite sex apart and this group wants to throw them together. OK....
 
Let's hope it never happens. Why would they want boys and girls together in the same bathroom. That is just asking for trouble.
 
Maybe I'm an inhibited prude, but I just don't want to hear men pee. And vice versa.

And boys and girls sharing a locker room? That's disturbing. My 5 year old DD would never in a million years undress in front of a boy.

Is this the same group that had the topless protest? They marched down some street in Maine -- all the women topless -- saying that it was sexist to deny them the right to walk around topless.
 
The Maine Human Rights Commissions taking heat over a proposal to ban schools from enforcing gender divisions in sports teams, school organizations, bathrooms and locker rooms, saying forcing a student into a particular room or group because of their biological gender amounts to discrimination.

So they want boys and girls to shower together too? :scared1:

I don’t know how it is in other areas, but around here, most high schools do not have a separate changing area, and the showers are communal.

I for one would NOT feel comfortable showering/changing in front of someone of the opposite sex. I’m sure teens going through that awkward stage would feel the same way.
 
The issue came to light last year when the commission ruled that, under the Maine Human Rights Act, a school had discriminated against a 12-year-old transgender boy by denying him access to the girls' bathroom.

This is the core issue.
 
is it banning gender specific sports teams? or team locker rooms? I misunderstood the post.
 
Idiotic. I'd feel really safe knowing that my teenage dd would be in a locker room full of football players:scared1: or walking into a bathroom that 3 or 4 boys are in. Never mind the whole privacy issue.
 
Could someone please explain how this makes any sense.
It reflects how little sense there is in many aspects of our society's perspectives related to gender. We collectively have so many hang-ups and hold so many prejudices that practically nothing makes sense in the full light of fairness. In that context, this move is not remarkable in the least, other than it rubs against a lot of those hang-ups and prejudices that are so ingrained in our society's psyche that we don't even realize that they're there.

Anyone remember the day after the first episode of Ally McBeal aired? The water-cooler talk was all about the co-ed bathroom. I don't think our society has really progressed very far from there. We're still stuck in antiquated he/she constructs. Rational logic acknowledges only two significant he/she dichotomies of consequence: The very significant role of each gender in making babies; and the marginally significant aspect regarding the tendency for one gender to be physically larger and one gender to be physically smaller. Other than that, it's all just artificial social constructs that we humans have made up, that serve no constructive purpose other than the preference for the status quo -- in other words, the opposite of advancement of modernity.

I'm not saying I'm immune: Along the lines themilesfamily alluded to, I'm not sure I would feel completely comfortable having her in the next stall, hearing me pee. However, in a larger sense, I'd personally rather not hear the guy in the next stall pee, and if I think about it a bit, my preferences for privacy, both with regard to others hearing/seeing me and with regard to me hearing/seeing other people, very quickly would be devoid of gender-specificity. And I think that going down that path would greatly improve society.... not toward exhibitionism or anything like that, but rather toward respecting everyone's privacy (for example) without regard to gender.

We're people, first, then much later we're men or women. Indeed, the more we reserve our consideration of ourselves as a specific gender for bedroom matters, exclusively, the better.

With regard to what krcit said: I would be concerned also about my 90 pound weakling son in a locker room full of 150 pound football players, though clearly for different reasons (and note the proviso I listed right up-front... that with regard to making babies). The key is to recognize that everyone inherently deserves personal dignity. It isn't something that should need to be earned or lived-without. If that means giving everyone, regardless of gender, adequate privacy in a locker room, then that's what it means. And in that case, it shouldn't matter whether the locker room is single-gender or co-ed; if enough privacy is provided, then it wouldn't matter. The problem is that that's financially impractical. So we make compromises... and compromises imply an imperfect end-result.

And that's why things like this are both necessary sometimes and at the same time don't make sense -- because of the imperfections in our society borne out of inadequate resources and inadequate consideration of every person's inherent value.
 
So they want boys and girls to shower together too? :scared1:

I don’t know how it is in other areas, but around here, most high schools do not have a separate changing area, and the showers are communal.

I for one would NOT feel comfortable showering/changing in front of someone of the opposite sex. I’m sure teens going through that awkward stage would feel the same way.

I'm confused by this statement. Are you saying that schools near you already have boys and girls changing in the same area and are showering in a communal shower?
 
So they want boys and girls to shower together too? :scared1:

I don’t know how it is in other areas, but around here, most high schools do not have a separate changing area, and the showers are communal.

I for one would NOT feel comfortable showering/changing in front of someone of the opposite sex. I’m sure teens going through that awkward stage would feel the same way.

i never heard of this in united states schools you are from southern california can someone else from southern california back this up? is this true?
 
I don’t know how it is in other areas, but around here, most high schools do not have a separate changing area, and the showers are communal.

I'm confused by this statement. Are you saying that schools near you already have boys and girls changing in the same area and are showering in a communal shower?

She is saying that they are gender separated, but in each locker room the shower areas are communal. So, the girls' locker room has open showers, where girls don't have privacy from one another, and the boys' locker room is the same.

The problem, then, would be that if the locker rooms were no longer gender-specific, there would be no shower facilities that were private.
 
People deserve privacy IMO. It's just reasonable.

Bicker's example of the 90 pound weakling is interesting. I don't see providing separate facilities for such people though.
 
I'm confused by this statement. Are you saying that schools near you already have boys and girls changing in the same area and are showering in a communal shower?

i never heard of this in united states schools you are from southern california can someone else from southern california back this up? is this true?

Sorry I wasn't clear! No, there are girl and boy locker rooms. However, inside those gender-specific rooms, people change out in the open in front of their same-gendered peers. They also shower in open showers, meaning they are exposed to other kids of the same gender.

She is saying that they are gender separated, but in each locker room the shower areas are communal. So, the girls' locker room has open showers, where girls don't have privacy from one another, and the boys' locker room is the same.

The problem, then, would be that if the locker rooms were no longer gender-specific, there would be no shower facilities that were private.

Exactly :thumbsup2
 
Sorry I wasn't clear! No, there are girl and boy locker rooms. However, inside those gender-specific rooms, people change out in the open in front of their same-gendered peers. They also shower in open showers, meaning they are exposed to other kids of the same gender.

That's how my HS was 30 years ago.

How else would you do it? It is a locker room.
 
As I high school teacher, I watch a few students each year appear to struggle with their own gender identity. I even watched close friends of mine in college struggle with gender identity. Although I haven't seen it, I would image that bathrooms and locker rooms are areas where lots of bullying occurs. Especially after the recent events in South Hadley, MA, schools are trying to be much more proactive in stopping and preventing bullying. IMO, I feel that Maine is trying to allow our students feel comfortable with themselves and in their environment. In reality, I don't see schools changing all bathrooms and locker rooms to non-gender specific. More likely, it would require some sort of "formal" space available for these students - like a private bathroom. The new middle school in my district only has private bathrooms for student use. There are ways that this can be done, if passed, that will allow all students the comfort and privacy level still needed. Just my two cents
 
Good point, and no question that bullying is a big problem. I'm not one that thinks this is a new problem. It has long been a horrible situation -- the difference now is that our society is beginning to accept that fact after denying it for a long time, and negating the notion, outright (i.e., rationalizing how things were/are as a good thing :rolleyes: ) before that. However, I think there are a lot of people still beholden to their own personal perspective in this regard, and enough of them to obstruct efforts toward progress long-needed.
 











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