Magic Key Renewals

[AndrewC]

Just my opinion, all the complainers are probably going to ruin it for everyone. We are coming off of a pandemic. REMEMBER?!! I've noticed that usually the people who complain the most are the ones with the best passes. Life is tough having money. (I've had the best and the cheapest passes, for my family, by the way). Do you get terribly perturbed if your steak isn't cooked perfectly? All the while poorer people have to save up just to be able to get tickets or lower-end passports. How about a little gratitude? No. Time to throw a temper tantrum you didn't get ALL the reservations you wanted. Those who fit in this category (obviously, not all) are acting like spoiled, arrogant, kids. Just my opinion. I wonder how many kids will not be able to go, now? Disneyland is doing the best they can with finite resources. Perfectly, no.

I agree a little with your comments but not all the way. If someone hit Disney 30 different times with that highest pass and couldn’t go a few times, sure, they probably shouldn’t be *tooo* upset.

BUT, the person that purchased that top end pass because they knew they could only visit around holidays or “traditional blackout times” and then could only visit four or five times because the rest didn’t have available reservations and it turns out those four or five visits would have been covered under the lower end passes… well, seems valid for being pissed.

 

[dina444444]

I agree a little with your comments but not all the way. If someone hit Disney 30 different times with that highest pass and couldn’t go a few times, sure, they probably shouldn’t be *tooo* upset.

BUT, the person that purchased that top end pass because they knew they could only visit around holidays or “traditional blackout times” and then could only visit four or five times because the rest didn’t have available reservations and it turns out those four or five visits would have been covered under the lower end passes… well, seems valid for being pissed.

I just want to chime in that anytime enchant and imagine have been blocked reservations have been available all day on the day of.

 

[DontSpamMe]

So nothing new on the renewal front I see.

I agree about the reservation complainers. How many times is enough?

AP holders have always seemed entitled on some level and I noticed this early as a day ticket holder. Friday nights were infuriating back in the day. I'm paying out the nose for the experience and they show up like it's the neighborhood mall.

Hopefully news on the renewals soon because I'm entitled to renew darnit.

 

[DLgal]

So nothing new on the renewal front I see.

I agree about the reservation complainers. How many times is enough?

AP holders have always seemed entitled on some level and I noticed this early as a day ticket holder. Friday nights were infuriating back in the day. I'm paying out the nose for the experience and they show up like it's the neighborhood mall.

Hopefully news on the renewals soon because I'm entitled to renew darnit.

I'm a Dream Key holder. I've never been unable to go on a day I wanted to. I visit a LOT. That said, it requires a LOT of refreshing the app and trying for reservations over and over again. It is a time commitment in addition to needing to be savvy about the inner workings of the system somewhat.

The lawsuit has merit, although *I* don't personally feel like I was fooled or that I didn't get my money's worth. But again, I also can't claim to be an "average consumer." I don't think ANY of us here on these boards falls under this classification.

Disneyland is part of So Cal culture and always has been. It is something that out of town visitors just need to accept about it. All those "annoying" people who come visit so often LITERALLY keep the lights on at that park. When the locals don't come, Disneyland is in trouble. It will never be like WDW where it is mostly tourists from out of town. It has been part of the fabric of So Cal culture for generations, and that will likely never change. I actually think that is what makes it unique and from my perspective, guests here are far better behaved overall than what you see at WDW. Talk about entitled behavior.

 

[PirateBrigade]

Do you get terribly perturbed if your steak isn't cooked perfectly? All the while poorer people have to save up just to be able to get tickets or lower-end passports. How about a little gratitude? No. Time to throw a temper tantrum you didn't get ALL the reservations you wanted. Those who fit in this category (obviously, not all) are acting like spoiled, arrogant, kids. Just my opinion. I wonder how many kids will not be able to go, now? Disneyland is doing the best they can with finite resources. Perfectly, no.

If my $500 A5 Wagyu ribeye was cooked incorrectly, I would send it back, 100%.

Disney violated known marketing and advertising laws, so no, I'm not going to have any sympathy for a multi-billion dollar global conglomerate (with an ineffective CEO and complacent board of directors) that can't even do a proper legal review of marketing copy before publishing it.

It's disingenuous to compare violations of law and people struggling with money. If anything, this lawsuit is necessary to protect those struggling with money. If Disney goes unchallenged in something like this, you can bet they would improperly advertise the lowest passes and tickets as well.

 

[PirateBrigade]

I'm a Dream Key holder. I've never been unable to go on a day I wanted to. I visit a LOT. That said, it requires a LOT of refreshing the app and trying for reservations over and over again. It is a time commitment in addition to needing to be savvy about the inner workings of the system somewhat.

The lawsuit has merit, although *I* don't personally feel like I was fooled or that I didn't get my money's worth. But again, I also can't claim to be an "average consumer." I don't think ANY of us here on these boards falls under this classification.

Disneyland is part of So Cal culture and always has been. It is something that out of town visitors just need to accept about it. All those "annoying" people who come visit so often LITERALLY keep the lights on at that park. When the locals don't come, Disneyland is in trouble. It will never be like WDW where it is mostly tourists from out of town. It has been part of the fabric of So Cal culture for generations, and that will likely never change. I actually think that is what makes it unique and from my perspective, guests here are far better behaved overall than what you see at WDW. Talk about entitled behavior.

Agree and agree. Everyone on this board is expert-level when it comes to parsing out the specifics of Disneyland tickets/passes. It's because it's pretty much gamified, it's a zero sum game. Any advantage we glean leads us to things like unrestricted use of the reservation calendar, etc... when this lawsuit first came out, I thought to myself, "What's wrong with people, can they not read?" I had to take a step back, remove my Disney brain, and read it as a reasonable, average person.

I used to be part of the Friday/Saturday night masses that went to Disneyland when I was in my 20s. It was as @DontSpamMe described...our local mall, and why not? It's a function of the attractiveness of the place, and the fact that there are 20M people in Southern California, simple math, it's going to be crowded. I grew up treating Disneyland as a once-a-year (or less) affair having to drive 7hrs from Nor-Cal, to flip to weekly/3x weekly/sometimes daily visits during college was an absolute joy.

I think it helps that locals aren't trying to hit every possible ride on their visits, and aren't buying G+/LL, or at least, that's how I visited the parks as a local. Sure, the walkways were crush capacity on a Friday night in October 2019, but it could have been worse.

 

[StormyCA]

The thing about consumer psychology is that Disney created the hoarding behavior by seriously restricting reservations during Halloween and Christmas. If everybody could trust that there would always be enough reservations, people would not feel a need to make speculative reservations.

Day ticket holders do make Disney more money per person per day but Keyholders make Disney more money per year. When I had an annual pass, I was regularly asking friends and family if they wanted to go which resulted in many ticket sales for Disney. This past year, I was actively trying to convince my friends and family to go elsewhere for vacation due to lack of reservations. Once my Magic Key expires, even the thousands of dollars I give to Disney will be gone. And that trickles down further than just the parks. If I'm not going to the parks, I'll feel less of a need to watch the newest Disney movies so that's movie tickets that my friends and family won't be buying. And without easy access to the parks, I've already eliminated buying new pins for pin trading which means I'm less likely to buy other random stuff at the Disney store online to get free shipping so they're losing out on merchandise from me too.

I have no doubt Disney will be very successful at increasing their revenue per guest per day. But I think overall, it'll eventually come back to bite them.

The thing is, I don't think they did 'severely restrict' the availability. I think the availability would have been adequate (given attendance patterns) if people had not 'hoarded' in the first place. What Disney didn't do was 'rob Peter to pay Paul' by taking reservations away from the other two buckets to add more to the MKey bucket. Fair's fair and the other two buckets shouldn't be disadvantaged because of MKeys not being kind to each other by simply taking what they needed, not all they wanted. If someone takes all the sweet rolls at the buffet and there are none in the kitchen, should a server walk up to my table and grab the two I took and put them back on the buffet?

TBH, the whole debate on how ressies should be allocated and 'who makes Disney the most money' goes round and round depending on one's own point of view. The fact that Disney keeps its 'methodology' and its financial information in some triple locked vault deep in the Disney dungeon does nothing to help matters. If they would be more transparent in how they divvy up and allocate/reallocate reservations it would stop a lot of our debating (which is based on our own desires since we're only human) and would also assist ALL types of guests in planning trips and making reservations. And if they'd be more transparent in the number of pass holders vs ticket guests as well as the finances behind those numbers I think most of us, regardless of which type of guest we are, would be a bit surprised at the truth.

 

[Disney0010]

Well said.

I'm a Dream Key holder. I've never been unable to go on a day I wanted to. I visit a LOT. That said, it requires a LOT of refreshing the app and trying for reservations over and over again. It is a time commitment in addition to needing to be savvy about the inner workings of the system somewhat.

The lawsuit has merit, although *I* don't personally feel like I was fooled or that I didn't get my money's worth. But again, I also can't claim to be an "average consumer." I don't think ANY of us here on these boards falls under this classification.

Disneyland is part of So Cal culture and always has been. It is something that out of town visitors just need to accept about it. All those "annoying" people who come visit so often LITERALLY keep the lights on at that park. When the locals don't come, Disneyland is in trouble. It will never be like WDW where it is mostly tourists from out of town. It has been part of the fabric of So Cal culture for generations, and that will likely never change. I actually think that is what makes it unique and from my perspective, guests here are far better behaved overall than what you see at WDW. Talk about entitled behavior.

 

[katyringo]

I never understand why these posts always turn into ticket holder out of town vs. locals APs.

I feel like the locals give disneyland the expirence that I as an out of towner love. It's what allows the characters to free roam.. because it's embedded in a culture and people experience often that they lead the crowd behavior.

It's what allows us out of townera to know all the secret tips and tricks. Like the really specific details you only know from riding a ride 6273838393 times.

We are on the same side folks..

 

[SOCALMouseMommy]

I never understand why these posts always turn into ticket holder out of town vs. locals APs.

I feel like the locals give disneyland the expirence that I as an out of towner love. It's what allows the characters to free roam.. because it's embedded in a culture and people experience often that they lead the crowd behavior.

It's what allows us out of townera to know all the secret tips and tricks. Like the really specific details you only know from riding a ride 6273838393 times.

We are on the same side folks..

As a frequent visitor I love helping friends, family and neighbors with “insider tips.” Everyone always tells me that my advice made the trip 100x better than it would have been otherwise.

Also as a frequent visitor, we are more inclined to let other people go ahead of us, to help out people who are lost or confused in the parks, to move aside so a smaller child and see the parade better. We know we will be back soon but the family behind us might not. We love to share the magic.

 

[zzzzk]

I never understand why these posts always turn into ticket holder out of town vs. locals APs.

I feel like the locals give disneyland the expirence that I as an out of towner love. It's what allows the characters to free roam.. because it's embedded in a culture and people experience often that they lead the crowd behavior.

It's what allows us out of townera to know all the secret tips and tricks. Like the really specific details you only know from riding a ride 6273838393 times.

We are on the same side folks..

I agree, it is not the passholders vs the ticket holders. The problem is the spoiled complainers and people who take out lawsuits because they didn't get every day they wanted. More than likely this is the reason passholders cannot renew, yet. (by the way, cheap passholders don't get every day they want, even on non-blockout dates, either). I'm sure Disney is in meetings debating how to avoid more lawsuits by some, rich, spoiled, people. (not all).

 

[brightlined]

I agree, it is not the passholders vs the ticket holders. The problem is the spoiled complainers and people who take out lawsuits because they didn't get every day they wanted. More than likely this is the reason passholders cannot renew, yet. (by the way, cheap passholders don't get every day they want, even on non-blockout dates, either). I'm sure Disney is in meetings debating how to avoid more lawsuits by some, rich, spoiled, people. (not all).

The lawsuit isn't a bunch of crybabies, though. The suit has merit. It doesn't mean they'll win, but it has merit.

The entire lawsuit is based on a claim of false advertising. The question of the lawsuit is - what does this ad mean:



Keep in mind - APs were not part of the reservation system before MKs. Everything we know now was unknown - nobody could say for sure how much AP availability there would be for the 2021 holiday season when these passes were put on sale - with the added complaint that days were sold out for APs that were still available for ticket buyers. (The real flaw here for Disney was saying "every day of the year", and for putting the availability restrictions deep in the fine print.)

People have frequently used the lawsuit as a totem for their complaints about the reservation system, but that's not (really) what it's about. It's specifically about the Dream Key, and specifically about the 2021 holiday season.

Again, it doesn't mean they'll win, but that's a completely reasonable argument for a courtroom.


I've said this before - I don't think that MKs being off-sale now has anything to do with the lawsuit. When they pulled the Enchant and Imagine keys in May, I thought it was pretty clear that they simply wanted to maximize revenue for the summer, and prevent ticket buyers from evading the blockouts for those keys by upgrading from a ticket. If that's the case, it would completely make sense that they wouldn't be offering MKs again until those keys have access again in mid-August.

(It's also not out of the question that they might simply not have a technical way to allow people to renew an MK while passes are off-sale, since that's a use case that they haven't experienced before - and we all know DLR's tech history.)

 

[IsleofDisney]

The lawsuit isn't a bunch of crybabies, though. The suit has merit. It doesn't mean they'll win, but it has merit.

The entire lawsuit is based on a claim of false advertising. The question of the lawsuit is - what does this ad mean:

View attachment 686510

Keep in mind - APs were not part of the reservation system before MKs. Everything we know now was unknown - nobody could say for sure how much AP availability there would be for the 2021 holiday season when these passes were put on sale - with the added complaint that days were sold out for APs that were still available for ticket buyers. (The real flaw here for Disney was saying "every day of the year", and for putting the availability restrictions deep in the fine print.)

People have frequently used the lawsuit as a totem for their complaints about the reservation system, but that's not (really) what it's about. It's specifically about the Dream Key, and specifically about the 2021 holiday season.

Again, it doesn't mean they'll win, but that's a completely reasonable argument for a courtroom.


I've said this before - I don't think that MKs being off-sale now has anything to do with the lawsuit. When they pulled the Believe and Enchant keys in May, I thought it was pretty clear that they simply wanted to maximize revenue for the summer, and prevent ticket buyers from evading the blockouts for those keys by upgrading from a ticket. If that's the case, it would completely make sense that they wouldn't be offering MKs again until those keys have access again in mid-August.

(It's also not out of the question that they might simply not have a technical way to allow people to renew an MK while passes are off-sale, since that's a use case that they haven't experienced before - and we all know DLR's tech history.)

Reservations aren't entirely new, they were part of the Flex AP that was available for 2019/2020 year. Also, reservations have been part of the WDW platform for several years.

I agree that the lawsuit has some merit, when advertising 365 days might be misleading, fine print says it's not guaranteed and subject availability. I think Disney corporate will fight this in court though and not settle.

 

[gelatoni fan]

If Disney was transparent about how Keyholder reservations would be limited before people purchased, I agree that such a lawsuit would be frivolous complaining. But at the time, even youtubers who's job it is to know how the Magic Keys work posted videos about how they felt misled because they never thought they would be blocked from getting reservations when ticket holders could. Even if Disney wins the lawsuit, I'd still say how they advertised Magic Keys and designed the reservation system were unethical.

I think that when people have issues with the reservation system, Disney should be responsible because they designed this system but a lot of people blame other guests for following the rules that Disney designed. The reason there is even a comparison between ticket holders and keyholders is because Disney wants to separate these groups of people. Even though I engage in comparisons in the context of trying to understand Disney's business strategy, I never personally feel like any other guest is taking away from my experience when I can't get reservations.

 

[zzzzk]

Saying the case "has some merit" means nothing except that the judge is willing to hear the case. It does not mean they are right, nor does it mean their complaint is valid. Last time I checked, "reservation based" means to check to see if reservations are available. Not that they are guaranteed. Ever made a reservation in a restaurant? Yes, I think these complainers are "cry babies" ruining it for us all. People say Disney just needs to be transparent. Are you kidding? With these kinds of people, Disney would have to have 20 pages of fine print, otherwise their lawyers would find anything. Even then...

 

[brightlined]

Reservations aren't entirely new, they were part of the Flex AP that was available for 2019/2020 year. Also, reservations have been part of the WDW platform for several years.

I agree that the lawsuit has some merit, when advertising 365 days might be misleading, fine print says it's not guaranteed and subject availability. I think Disney corporate will fight this in court though and not settle.

You're not wrong about Flex, but I was referring to the post-pandemic reservation system for access to the parks. The point I was making was that the reservation system had been entirely about tickets before MKs - no one knew for sure how it was truly going to work out for MKs in advance. (And Flex's history would not have provided that information, since those reservations were exclusively and entirely about that pass.)

WDW's platform isn't relevant to this particular discussion. When it came online in 2020, it included APs. The expectations for WDW APs throughout the 2021 holiday season were knowable, since they'd been there all along. (Which is one of the main reasons that there was never a similar lawsuit about the Incredi-pass last year.) That was not the case for DLR.

If I were a gambler, I would bet that they will settle at some point, especially if anything doesn't go their way during the early course of the trial, assuming it makes it to trial. (Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the judge encouraged both parties to settle - the legalities here feel really muddy.) If Disney fights it to the end and loses, the legal ruling would potentially restrict what they could do with the AP program in the future. But if the plaintiffs are willing to accept some kind of compensation without an admission of wrongdoing - then Disney's legal options would remain wide open. The whole case is being argued over a situation that may never happen again - it wouldn't be worth the risk of Disney having their hands legally tied in the future, especially if they could make the whole thing go away by throwing some Disney cash (ie, a new Dream Key) at them.

 

[Kenshin21]

If Disney was transparent about how Keyholder reservations would be limited before people purchased, I agree that such a lawsuit would be frivolous complaining. But at the time, even youtubers who's job it is to know how the Magic Keys work posted videos about how they felt misled because they never thought they would be blocked from getting reservations when ticket holders could. Even if Disney wins the lawsuit, I'd still say how they advertised Magic Keys and designed the reservation system were unethical.

I think that when people have issues with the reservation system, Disney should be responsible because they designed this system but a lot of people blame other guests for following the rules that Disney designed. The reason there is even a comparison between ticket holders and keyholders is because Disney wants to separate these groups of people. Even though I engage in comparisons in the context of trying to understand Disney's business strategy, I never personally feel like any other guest is taking away from my experience when I can't get reservations.

I'm not agreeing one way or the other, but I've spent a great deal of time watching these youtubers discussing magic keys last year when they were first introduced. Many of them had a different interpretation of what it would truly be. (Most talked about limiting reservations and there would be days they would be blocked ie older flex pass had a few days that people couldn't get a reservation) Yet all of them still bought it, so some blame falls on them and how they informed their communities.

 

[pharmama]

You're not wrong about Flex, but I was referring to the post-pandemic reservation system for access to the parks. The point I was making was that the reservation system had been entirely about tickets before MKs - no one knew for sure how it was truly going to work out for MKs in advance. (And Flex's history would not have provided that information, since those reservations were exclusively and entirely about that pass.)

I think, as another poster mentioned, this has to do with how people made their own assumptions about how the reservations for passholders would work and then were upset when Disney didn't follow the model they had imagined. Maybe the Flex pass reservations aren't a direct comparison since the whole park wasn't reservation required, but I would argue that the regular ticket reservation system made it pretty obvious that the AP/MK would have a designated "bucket" of reservations. That was already in place with different "buckets" for Park hoppers, 1 park per day tickets and hotel guests with different availability between the buckets. Why would one assume an AP/MK would have master access or some kind of "bottomless bucket" above that rather than just a "bucket" designated for them (which could, in turn, sell out... just like 1PPD or PH buckets were sometimes selling out when the other was still available)?

 

[brightlined]

Last time I checked, "reservation based" means to check to see if reservations are available. Not that they are guaranteed. Ever made a reservation in a restaurant?

Comparing it to restaurant reservations actually works in favor of the plaintiffs. Restaurants don't have tiers of guests - it's first-come, first-serve. If this situation were like a restaurant, there would be one pool of reservations, and APs and tickets would have equal access to those spots.

But, honestly, the legal argument isn't entirely that. It's the question of how restricted the AP availability was - especially since they were still selling tickets for those days - and whether Disney was misleading in their advertising by not making it more clear.

How many November Saturday spots were available to Dream Keys? 1000? 500? 2? The number was completely arbitrary on Disney's part and entirely unknown to the purchaser two months out.

I'm not saying they're correct or that they'll win. I'm just saying that you shouldn't dismiss the whole thing out of hand. There are legitimate legal questions here.

 

[brightlined]

I think, as another poster mentioned, this has to do with how people made their own assumptions about how the reservations for passholders would work and then were upset when Disney didn't follow the model they had imagined. Maybe the Flex pass reservations aren't a direct comparison since the whole park wasn't reservation required, but I would argue that the regular ticket reservation system made it pretty obvious that the AP/MK would have a designated "bucket" of reservations. That was already in place with different "buckets" for Park hoppers, 1 park per day tickets and hotel guests with different availability between the buckets. Why would one assume an AP/MK would have master access or some kind of "bottomless bucket" above that rather than just a "bucket" designated for them (which could, in turn, sell out... just like 1PPD or PH buckets were sometimes selling out when the other was still available)?

I agree with you - but I would nudge that what happened last year literally treated the Dream Key like a Flex Pass, which is completely unlike how it was pre-pandemic. It's one thing to be limited in some capacity - especially for a $600 pass - but it's another thing to be so limited when you paid $1400.

Honestly, I think Disney's biggest mistake was in not simply biting the bullet and releasing more Dream Key space once people started complaining. I get that they were desperate for cash, hence continuing to sell tickets for those days, but that would have ended this mess pretty early. In many cases, people had just paid $1400 for that pass - it's not like they hadn't spent money.

Disney also screwed up by not limiting Dream Key sales more than they did. They would have known how many spaces would be available on November Saturdays, and really should have limited the amount of Dream Keys accordingly. (I feel like that will come up in the court case.)


One other random reason I think Disney will settle - I assume the plantiffs will demand the methodology that Disney used to allocate reservations between tickets and APs. I don't think Disney will want that information out there, especially if it indicates that Disney was overselling APs and under-allocating AP reservations.