LOVE or HATE FP+ Anyone's mind been changed ??

[Luckybee]

Of course it is absurd. First, let's not buy into the falsehood that "all FPs were gone by noon." Simply not true. Second, one cannot fault the FP- system for "failing" a guest who saunters in to the MK at 4:00 on a day that it closed at 8:00 and wanted to do all three mountains with minimal waiting. Was the FP system supposed to be designed around that style of touring? Of course not. Anyone who waited in 160 collective minutes to ride all three mountains has no one to blame but themselves for doing so and is not deserving of any sympathy.

We used to "saunter" into the park later in the day, sometimes even at 4:00pm, mostly during slower periods. Almost always we could get some fp's, which were not that important to us because there was always plenty to do to keep us occupied without having to deal with lengthy lines. By that I mean if we didn't care about riding the big 3 at MK as an example we could without fail find a whole lot of rides with little or no wait. Now of course we can get fp's for any 3 and then for everything else we can wait and wait and wait and wait and wait.............. Yep we sure do enjoy the new fp+=not.

 

[cakebaker]

Of course it is absurd. First, let's not buy into the falsehood that "all FPs were gone by noon." Simply not true. Second, one cannot fault the FP- system for "failing" a guest who saunters in to the MK at 4:00 on a day that it closed at 8:00 and wanted to do all three mountains with minimal waiting. Was the FP system supposed to be designed around that style of touring? Of course not. Anyone who waited in 160 collective minutes to ride all three mountains has no one to blame but themselves for doing so and is not deserving of any sympathy.

Why should anyone have to get up at the crack of dawn, drag tired kids out of bed after a long day of traveling or in another park so that they can rush in and grab a paper fp? Why shouldn't someone be able to leisurely enjoy their vacation in whatever way they choose? I thought vacations were supposed to be relaxing and fun.

Your sauntering guest does not describe us. We're at park openings and we hop and I think I'm entitled to get to an evening park and expect to be able to experience popular attractions at least once. The fact that I don't stay in the same park all day does not entitle you to get to ride the same thing over and over and I get to ride it- none.

The guest who does not like having the ability to power ride taken away does not equal a failure of FP+ just as the lack of availability of paper fp's later in the day did not equate to paper fp being a failure.

You may not like it, but that doesn't mean it isn't doing exactly what Disney intended it to do and that translates into a success.

 

[JimmyV]

I do find it odd that you're blaming the touring style.

This is a "strategies" board. In all the years that I have been here, no one has ever advocated a strategy of going to the MK during Christmas week and entering the park in the afternoon as a "wait minimization" strategy. That does not mean that people don't do it. And it doesn't mean that they shouldn't. But that is such an outlier strategy that one cannot be faulted for not designing a FP system to accommodate it. It's great that FP+ now works for that person. But solving a problem so far to the end of the curve is not what this is all about.

 

[BugsDaddy]

Not picking nits here. But this is the great unknown. One cannot leap to the conclusion that FP+ "works for most people" because "most people don't repeat headliners", and one cannot leap to the conclusion that FP+ "fails most people" because "most people like to repeat headliners". We just don't know. What we do know is that "repeat riders" are not better off. And "one and done" riders are better off.

That is why I used the word theorize. I can no more prove it than you can disprove it but I think if you look at the demographics of the type of visitors to WDW vs. the type of visitors at six flags for example, you could make an educated guess that the visitors to WDW are not coaster junkies to the extent that they need to ride each mountain 3 times daily to have a successful trip.

 

[AustinTink]

That's actually a good point. And, I would say that most visitors to WDW do not go to WDW to ride every roller coaster 3 times. They ride the coaster once and then move on to other things. Shows, parades, other rides, etc. Coaster hopping is something you would find more in a six flags park where there really is not much more to do than to ride coasters and they cater to a different type of visitor typically. Therefore, I would theorize that the touring style employed by most WDW visitors would fit well with FP+.

Actually, no. We rode all the coasters three times and still had time for other rides, shows, dining, shopping, etc. We could accomplish it all with our old touring style. Also...We have two Six Flags in Texas, can't stand either one of them.

 

[jade1]

This is a "strategies" board. In all the years that I have been here, no one has ever advocated a strategy of going to the MK during Christmas week and entering the park in the afternoon as a "wait minimization" strategy. That does not mean that people don't do it. And it doesn't mean that they shouldn't. But that is such an outlier strategy that one cannot be faulted for not designing a FP system to accommodate it. It's great that FP+ now works for that person. But solving a problem so far to the end of the curve is not what this is all about.

Just admitting FP- would not work for my late arrivers XMAS week is enough for me.

And ya know what-there is a "new" STRATEGY FOR THE THIS STRATEGY BOARD, and they did design a FP system to accommodate it.

 

[JimmyV]

That is why I used the word theorize.

Agree 100%

Actually, no. We rode all the coasters three times and still had time for other rides, shows, dining, shopping, etc.

And what we're going to find here on this Board is that there are many people who did just what you did. The question is, how representative is that among the general WDW population. We'll never know.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Actually, no. We rode all the coasters three times and still had time for other rides, shows, dining, shopping, etc. We could accomplish it all with our old touring style. Also...We have two Six Flags in Texas, can't stand either one of them.

He did not say "all".

 

[JimmyV]

Just admitting FP- would not work for my touring style is enough for me-it just proves how much better FP+ is.

When you add the words "for me" (meaning you, not me), and I agree 100%. FP+ is a lot better for you.

 

[BugsDaddy]

Yes. Start a poll if you wish. Ask the audience. Is going during Christmas week and not getting to the MK before noon the best strategy for minimizing wait times? Go ahead and post that poll. Now, if a guest isn't interested in minimizing wait times, then fine. But one cannot employ that touring strategy and then complain that FPs were gone and lines were to long.

It has nothing to do with "what most people would do". That is never the argument that flies when FP+ doesn't work with the touring style of a guest. Then we are told that the system needs to accommodate the guest and not the other way around. I guess what is good for the goose is not good for the gander, after all.

 

[MrInfinity]

Of course it is absurd. First, let's not buy into the falsehood that "all FPs were gone by noon." Simply not true. Second, one cannot fault the FP- system for "failing" a guest who saunters in to the MK at 4:00 on a day that it closed at 8:00 and wanted to do all three mountains with minimal waiting. Was the FP system supposed to be designed around that style of touring? Of course not. Anyone who waited in 160 collective minutes to ride all three mountains has no one to blame but themselves for doing so and is not deserving of any sympathy.

Jimmy, you're just going back and forth on your debate now. It's kinda boring really. If under FP-, waiting in 160 min lines left only the waiter to blame, then why now, under FP+, if one waits a long time, is Disney to blame? Many people demonstrate doing a ton, under FP+, with minimal waits. So using your own argument shouldn't those who are waiting just copy the plan of those who are not -- or blame themselves?

 

[jade1]

When you add the words "for me" (meaning you, not me), and I agree 100%. FP+ is a lot better for you.

Agreed-at least its no longer "absurd", but the new system takes a new strategy.

 

[JimmyV]

If under FP-, waiting in 160 min lines left only the waiter to blame, then why now, under FP+, if one waits a long time, is Disney to blame?

That's actually such an easy question to answer that I am surprised that you can't figure it out without my help. Because under FP-, the guest had in his/her own power the ability to ameliorate the circumstances and now they do not. In the past, a guest could get a FP- for all three of TSMM, RnR and ToT. They could get FPs for both Soarin' and Test Track. Now they cannot. I place great weight on the fact that the system that allows the user to solve their own problems is better than a system that creates unsolvable problems. I never waited in 75 minute lines at Epcot. Now, I must. (Unless I am content to ride TT and Soarin' once each, with one being at RD.) So I either ride less, or wait more. With no way out of that box.

 

[wisblue]

It all comes down to touring style. And the park you are in. Assume that in the past, your day at DHS was simply not complete unless you rode:
TSMM x 2
RnR x 3
ToT x 2

Not everybody did this. We are told here that "most people did", and that "few people did". We just don't know. But the fact is, some did. I was one of them. There is no math that you can apply to this problem to make that day easier or faster to accomplish now than it was in the past. And it shouldn't be easier. Remember that there is a profit objective in this for Disney. Do they want to make you more efficient and faster, or less efficient and slower? Do they want you to add a day or two to your trip in order to accomplish all the things that you want, or do they want you to chop a day or two off of your trip so that you can go stay at Universal for a few days? It simply cannot be the case that Disney implemented this system so that people could accomplish in 4 days that which they used to accomplish in 5. But if it turns out that this is what they did, and that people can now tour the parks faster and more efficiently, leaving them with extra days to go see Harry Potter, then somebody is going to get fired. There are no absolutes here. Maybe some people can ride 23 rides in a day when they used to only do 18. But if that is happening, then Disney goofed.

I don't know the exact numbers any more than you do, but I can say with absolute certainty that MOST people did NOT get 7 total rides on those 3 attractions in one day. Using some numbers from what seems like a reliable source, the total daily capacity (not FP capacity) for RNRC (21,000), TOT (23,400), and TSMM (11,700) is 56,100 on a day in which the park is open for 13 hours. That would mean that only about 8,000 people getting those 7 rides each would use up the whole capacity. That same source used 35,000 as a typical attendance at DHS for a day on which it is open for 13 hours. So, at most, only 23% of guests could get that many rides. Of course, the actual number who rode that many times would be substantially lower because of the large number of guests who would ride at least one of those attractions once each.

Obviously, not everyone in the park wants to ride each of these attractions, but I would guess that there are more than 6000 who would like to do TSMM once if they could do it with a reasonable wait. But, if 6000 people were riding TSMM 2 or more times, everyone else would be left out.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

That's actually such an easy question to answer that I am surprised that you can't figure it out without my help. Because under FP-, the guest had in his/her own power the ability to ameliorate the circumstances and now they do not. In the past, a guest could get a FP- for all three of TSMM, RnR and ToT. They could get FPs for both Soarin' and Test Track. Now they cannot. I place great weight on the fact that the system that allows the user to solve their own problems is better than a system that creates unsolvable problems. I never waited in 75 minute lines at Epcot. Now, I must. (Unless I am content to ride TT and Soarin' once each, with one being at RD.) So I either ride less, or wait more. With no way out of that box.

Rope drop resolved your issue as you state here.

Same deal for HS since TOT is not a tier 1 attraction.

So there IS a way. Now, you may not care for it, but there is a way out of the box.

 

[Silock]

And, I would say that most visitors to WDW do not go to WDW to ride every roller coaster 3 times.

Source?

 

[jade1]

That's actually such an easy question to answer that I am surprised that you can't figure it out without my help. Because under FP-, the guest had in his/her own power the ability to ameliorate the circumstances and now they do not. In the past, a guest could get a FP- for all three of TSMM, RnR and ToT. They could get FPs for both Soarin' and Test Track. Now they cannot. I place great weight on the fact that the system that allows the user to solve their own problems is better than a system that creates unsolvable problems. I never waited in 75 minute lines at Epcot. Now, I must. (Unless I am content to ride TT and Soarin' once each, with one being at RD.) So I either ride less, or wait more. With no way out of that box.

Yep and I had TT for NYE evening (yes the day we closed MK and got to our room at 4AM)-one somebody like you would have used "more than once" early that AM-the new system allowed me to solve my own problem.

 

[Laketravis]

And what we're going to find here on this Board is that there are many people who did just what you did. The question is, how representative is that among the general WDW population. We'll never know.

Whenever the argument is offered that paper FP's were all gone by noon, it's also an inadvertent admission that a lot of people used them.

We aren't coaster junkies by any stretch of the imagination, if we were then WDW wouldn't even be on the map. But there's a reason particular attractions at WDW are called headliners and wow, what do you know - the most popular rides at WDW just happen to be coasters.

And like AustinTink, we'd ride them several times a day. Not because we are coaster junkies, but because we could. And if faced with a choice between BTMR and Country Bear Jamboree, or Space Mountain and Hall of Presidents, or RnRC and Muppets, I think a lot of people's preference would be the "coaster". The effect that FP+ has now is it forces guests to utilize attractions they probably wouldn't have chosen to utilize had their favorites been readily available. Yes folks, I'm talking about yield management again.

So whether someone Loves or Hates it, embraces or despises it, stops going completely or keeps going but spends less time and money there, the fact is that short term it most definitely does benefit Disney by allowing them to squeeze every last ounce of capacity out of every last attraction available. And whether the technology is applied to RFID beverage cups to prevent you from getting an additional 7 cents worth of product or to ride reservation systems that amplify both good and bad emotions, Disney gains.

And I predict they will keep gaining as long as the S&P hits record highs and interest rates are low. But come next recession (and there will be a next one), their short term gains could very well have loosened the grip of the most devoted customers and the dip in their business cycle during those less than euphoric times could be very, very deep.

I'm glad someone thinks we should look at the bigger picture, because the bigger picture may not be what everyone thinks it is.


.

 

[jade1]

Whenever the argument is offered that paper FP's were all gone by noon, it's also an inadvertent admission that a lot of people used them.

We aren't coaster junkies by any stretch of the imagination, if we were then WDW wouldn't even be on the map. But there's a reason particular attractions at WDW are called headliners and wow, what do you know - the most popular rides at WDW just happen to be coasters.

And like AustinTink, we'd ride them several times a day. Not because we are coaster junkies, but because we could. And if faced with a choice between BTMR and Country Bear Jamboree, or Space Mountain and Hall of Presidents, or RnRC and Muppets, I think a lot of people's preference would be the "coaster". The effect that FP+ has now is it forces guests to utilize attractions they probably wouldn't have chosen to utilize had their favorites been readily available. Yes folks, I'm talking about yield management again.

So whether someone Loves or Hates it, embraces or despises it, stops going completely or keeps going but spends less time and money there, the fact is that short term it most definitely does benefit Disney by allowing them to squeeze every last ounce of capacity out of every last attraction available. And whether the technology is applied to RFID beverage cups to prevent you from getting an additional 7 cents worth of product or to ride reservation systems that amplify both good and bad emotions, Disney gains.

And I predict they will keep gaining as long as the S&P hits record highs and interest rates are low. But come next recession (and there will be a next one), their short term gains could very well have loosened the grip of the most devoted customers and the dip in their business cycle during those less than euphoric times could be very, very deep.

I'm glad someone thinks we should look at the bigger picture, because the bigger picture may not be what everyone thinks it is.


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FALL SPECIAL:

Stay deluxe and receive 8 FP+ per day, or 4 FP+ in one park and 3 FP+ in a second.

 

[Silock]

Why should anyone have to get up at the crack of dawn, drag tired kids out of bed after a long day of traveling or in another park so that they can rush in and grab a paper fp? Why shouldn't someone be able to leisurely enjoy their vacation in whatever way they choose? I thought vacations were supposed to be relaxing and fun.

You don't *have* to do anything. The problem comes when people want to have their cake and eat it, too. If getting out of bed late and getting to the parks is more relaxing, then do that. But one can't then turn around and complain that there are long lines or limited FPs because people got there first.