LL/Cabins Dues Logic

[Patmcpsu]

Why would you say they’re not energy efficient?

Picture a regular hotel room; it only has one exterior wall (and it's a small wall). The other 3 walls are interior walls, where the temperature difference will only be a few degrees. And there would me minimal heat-loss through the floor/ceiling too.

Also, a regular hotel has mega-sized HVAC units that do everything. I assume The Cabins each have an individual, residential-grade heat pump. Same with hot water heaters, but I am just assuming.

 

[Mouseforward]

Picture a regular hotel room; it only has one exterior wall (and it's a small wall). The other 3 walls are interior walls, where the temperature difference will only be a few degrees. And there would me minimal heat-loss through the floor/ceiling too.

Also, a regular hotel has mega-sized HVAC units that do everything. I assume The Cabins each have an individual, residential-grade heat pump. Same with hot water heaters, but I am just assuming.

And many have multi story lobbies and corridors and stairwells ..... all needing to be climate controlled.

 

[Mouseforward]

@disneylandtour - The contemporary and the original Poly are all pre - fab ( built offsite) and they have lasted more than 50 years.

 

[Jlo85]

My analysis suggests that dues correlate with the square footage of the rooms less than the size of the property. So resorts with smaller rooms tend to charge less in dues per point (though they also tend to charge more points, in general). This I think is why Poly had higher dues than Grand Flo and Bay Lake - the larger studios.

This really is not true. I think it is hard to pin point a real reason as to what drives dues.
The closet examples are SSR (spread out low points) which is 19 years of dues current is for 2024 not 2025 yet the increase was 2.14 from start
BLT (tower high points) 15 years increased 2.07 I think it is easy to say the dues will surpass the increase % of SSR in 4 years.

Hard to use OKW as an example as it is 33 years old total is 3.93 since start I think it will be fairly easy for any resort to reach this % after 33 years.
BW has seeming done well however and also has a lower point chart I would suspect its more because of the lack of real common space at this resort as all the BW front is rentable and not exclusive to this resort.

 

[CarolynFH]

I agree that the current cabins will need replacement long before they’re 50 years old. The ones that were hauled away were about 25 years old (we stayed in a cabin in 1994, and they were replaced afterwards), and various posts on the construction threads gave me the impression that these new ones would have a similar life span. So I think that “saving up” for those replacement costs is included in the dues. I also think that housekeeping costs are higher, due to separation between units, so that contributes to higher dues too. So it will be interesting to see what the relationship between CFW and LSL turns out to be, both in terms of being linked as a single DVC entity or not as well as possible effects on dues.

 

[jimmymc]

Towers are cheaper to run and maintain than individual cabins when you divide the total cost by total points at the resort. And since a combined association would have the same dues for every room type, the tower's cheaper cost would bring the average price down.

There's no good comparison because no other resort is completely made up of individual buildings. Things like the copper creek cabins or SSR treehouses are a small percentage of capacity at those resorts and were built into the cost on opening day.

 

[Mouseforward]

Towers are cheaper to run and maintain than individual cabins when you divide the total cost by total points at the resort. And since a combined association would have the same dues for every room type, the tower's cheaper cost would bring the average price down.

There's no good comparison because no other resort is completely made up of individual buildings. Things like the copper creek cabins or SSR treehouses are a small percentage of capacity at those resorts and were built into the cost on opening day.

I absolutely agree A newer, well designedtower is cheaper to run. Obviously, that advantage diminishes once the tower gets older. At that point, the cost of replacing a cabin would pale in comparison to the cost of major structural repairs on a tower. Hence the current Florida condo crisis.

I don’t think a 40-year-old tower is necessarily more efficient than a current build but obviously they can be, and I would expect it Riviera was built with efficiency in mind.

You can also note though that Riviera maintenance is actually higher than SSR and Polly. It was even more than Polynesian before the tower was constructed. So I think multiple factors come intro dues. Scale being one of the largest factors, I would bet that the tree houses are very expensive to maintain, but since there’s only 60 of them it’s hard to notice in the dues.

This is why I think it’s logical to combine LSL and the cabins if you look at it from a perspective of a cabin owner, but it could possibly be a negative from the perspective of somebody who wants Lakeshore Lodge. With near 50-50 split in rooms Lakeshore Lodge will not be able to absorb the extra cost as well as Saratoga Springs.

I do not agree that the points have to be equal between cabins in any room at Lakeshore Lodge. You can certainly have different point costs for the studios in Lakeshore Lodge, and the cabins.

 

[jimmymc]

I do not agree that the points have to be equal between cabins in any room at Lakeshore Lodge. You can certainly have different point costs for the studios in Lakeshore Lodge, and the cabins.

I think this is how they will manage the cost, so people who book inside the lodge aren't subsidizing the cabins. A cabin might be the same price as the best view 1BR.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I think resorts with a large hotel side have some of the fixed costs subsidized by the hotel rooms. It's why Grand Floridian, Copper Creek, and Polynesian are so cheap. None of these are a single factor, but it's just a trend I noticed.

 

[Mouseforward]

I think this is how they will manage the cost, so people who book inside the lodge aren't subsidizing the cabins. A cabin might be the same price as the best view 1BR.

I think the one bedroom will be much higher in the lake shore Lodge, but it depends on how they position the resort. If the one bedrooms are like PIT - they will be super expensive more than the cabins, if they do a smaller one bedroom, then it could be similar. I would hope Lakeshore Lodge would have washers and dryers.

One of my big objections to Polynesian is that the studios cost the same in the tower as they do in the Longhouses. So a standard view tower room has a crappy view, are smaller and sleep less people for the same points. I think budget conscious DVC people will soon be booking up Long house Studios faster than the tower once the novelty wears off.

 

[DanCali]

Have the starting cost of dues ever decreased as new resorts come online or have they only decreased when new buildings are added to the same association?

Yes - PVB dues went down after the PIT tower came online late last year.





Source: https://www.dvcresalemarket.com/buying/annual-dues/

 

[Patmcpsu]

Yes, the roof will need to be replaced, but shingles are frequently replaced in all Florida buildings.

Now that you mention it, The Cabins will be more vulnerable to hurricanes than regular hotel buildings.

 

[DonkeyHoTay]

So it will be interesting to see what the relationship between CFW and LSL turns out to be, both in terms of being linked as a single DVC entity or not as well as possible effects on dues.

I expect it comes down to perspective, but I wonder what a Pros/Cons list looks like for merging CFW with LL. Maybe it starts like this:

Pros/Cons to merging CFW with LL in the Trust:

Pros:
- Lower the dues for the merged result (who knows if true, but presumably?)
- Provide access to very different resorts to the same owners, possibly improving booking options at 11 months for both.

Cons:
- Provide access to very different resorts to the same owners, possibly alienating both types of consumers if one prefers one resort type over another.
- Overloading resort amenities at each (probably LL) if daily access is granted to both resorts for those staying at either resort. <That's me waddling over from CFW to jump in the lazy river at LL>

 

[Mouseforward]

I expect it comes down to perspective, but I wonder what a Pros/Cons list looks like for merging CFW with LL. Maybe it starts like this:

Pros/Cons to merging CFW with LL in the Trust:

Pros:
- Lower the dues for the merged result (who knows if true, but presumably?)
- Provide access to very different resorts to the same owners, possibly improving booking options at 11 months for both.

Cons:
- Provide access to very different resorts to the same owners, possibly alienating both types of consumers if one prefers one resort type over another.
- Overloading resort amenities at each (probably LL) if daily access is granted to both resorts for those staying at either resort. <That's me waddling over from CFW to jump in the lazy river at LL>

This is much like the Poly Tower "will it be the same association" debate. The pros and cons are different from the perspective of a Cabin buyer / owner and a LSL buyer owner.

It is mostly pros for the CFW owner , Mostly cons for the future LSL owners as the only pro they get is 11-7 month access to the cabins.

ETA: the real pro vs con that matters is from the perspective of DVD - what do they think will be most profitable.

 

[Joroc0801]

Yes - PVB dues went down after the PIT tower came online late last year.


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Source: https://www.dvcresalemarket.com/buying/annual-dues/

I meant that the initial year's dues have increase as new resorts have come online. The linked chart below shows the starting MF per resort. I don't think you can directly compare the non-WDW resorts, but generally the initial maintenance fees have increased over the years. So that's why I think it would be reasonable to assume that LL starts off at a MF in the $9-$10 range sans a mix with CFW. If they are combined, that may push the new MF up into the 10.50-11.50 range. This is just fun with numbers with no real backing behind my assumptions, but I feel like it's a long shot that a combined dues figure would be considered a steal in comparison to all of the currently available resorts.

https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program-menu/financial/annual-dues-by-resort

 

[DVCPAT]

Picture a regular hotel room; it only has one exterior wall (and it's a small wall). The other 3 walls are interior walls, where the temperature difference will only be a few degrees. And there would me minimal heat-loss through the floor/ceiling too.

Also, a regular hotel has mega-sized HVAC units that do everything. I assume The Cabins each have an individual, residential-grade heat pump. Same with hot water heaters, but I am just assuming.

The cabins are super efficient. AC is a Mitsubishi mini spit with a seer rating above 30. We just returned from a week stay and I like the way construction worked around the existing trees… lots of shade which reduces the AC load. Also, tankless hot water heaters lower energy consumption.
Time will tell how they hold up with wear and tear. As long as they keep the roof leak free, they should last 50+ years. Because of the prefab cookie cutter design, if an area of the cabin deteriorates, a section could be easily retrofitted.

 

[CarolynFH]

I meant that the initial year's dues have increase as new resorts have come online.

Yes but how much of that is inflation? CM salaries, utility costs, etc. are higher in general by the time a new resort opens. And ever since the Aulani debacle, I think DVC has routinely overestimated initial year’s costs, so that dues at new resorts have tended to start high and then stabilize and rise more slowly than older resorts the first few years of the new resort’s existence, while DVC gets actual cost data.

(For those unfamiliar with the Aulani dues debacle, this article explains: https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program-men...ntinel-aulani-dues-error-lead-to-lewis-ouster)

 

[DVCPAT]

Again, what part of the construction exactly do you think won’t last? The old ones were trailers and lasted 40 ( and are still going they were all sold)

You don’t think the $12 maintenance fee have to do with having to get in a golf cart to clean them? And having low points per week? Did you consider that each of them sits on a plot of land unlike any other room other than the treehouses which are 50% larger and 2x the points.

Yes, the roof will need to be replaced, but shingles are frequently replaced in all Florida buildings.

Yes…. all CMs that visit the cabin are driving a vehicle. Nobody is walking from maintenance/store rooms to the cabins.
I see it as maintaining a bus compared to maintaining 15 cars…. Individual units will cost more to maintain than a single consolidated unit.
Also, keeping the parking pad and deck clean adds to the cost.
Disney is making a small fortune on golf cart rentals…. If they included a golf cart with ownership… I would add on. Maybe the problem (resort layout) could be the solution to increase sales…give home resort owners a golf cart during point stays.

 

[disneylandtour]

This is much like the Poly Tower "will it be the same association" debate. The pros and cons are different from the perspective of a Cabin buyer / owner and a LSL buyer owner.

It is mostly pros for the CFW owner , Mostly cons for the future LSL owners as the only pro they get is 11-7 month access to the cabins.

ETA: the real pro vs con that matters is from the perspective of DVD - what do they think will be most profitable.

The pro for DVD - it might be the only way to sell the cabins, forcing those who like LSL to also be stakeholders in the cabins as well.

 

[airjay75]

ETA: the real pro vs con that matters is from the perspective of DVD - what do they think will be most profitable.

That's pretty much what I think will drive this decision. And I could make arguments both ways, but probably lean toward the one package route. We on these boards are pretty focused on things like dues, long-term costs, and how combining the resorts might affect room availability. But your average DVC buyer is probably not. And what will be more attractive to them? Pick either LSL or CFW or look at this amazing new combo resort we have? Even if you prefer one or the other, you will now have this amazing option to pick between both before everyone else! This is the first DVC resort with such a range of options - from budget cabins to premium A-frame cabins to amazing tower villas! You can experience the great outdoors at FW or the luxurious accommodations of a traditional hotel/DVC tower.

The alternative view would be, based upon market research, DVD thinks a traditional tower vs. the cabins are just two different products that appeal to two different groups of people. But, I think most people rarely resist more over less.

 

[DonkeyHoTay]

That's pretty much what I think will drive this decision. And I could make arguments both ways, but probably lean toward the one package route. We on these boards are pretty focused on things like dues, long-term costs, and how combining the resorts might affect room availability. But your average DVC buyer is probably not. And what will be more attractive to them? Pick either LSL or CFW or look at this amazing new combo resort we have? Even if you prefer one or the other, you will now have this amazing option to pick between both before everyone else! This is the first DVC resort with such a range of options - from budget cabins to premium A-frame cabins to amazing tower villas! You can experience the great outdoors at FW or the luxurious accommodations of a traditional hotel/DVC tower.

The alternative view would be, based upon market research, DVD thinks a traditional tower vs. the cabins are just two different products that appeal to two different groups of people. But, I think most people rarely resist more over less.

This makes sense to me from a marketing point of view, and from the DVD perspective of selling points as a priority I think this pitch of a combined resort works best to sell those points. I also agree that a DVC member Pros/Cons list about a combined resort has nothing to do with how DVD will view the idea, but I am curious to know what everyone else thinks about it anyway. Personally, I hope it's combined so I pay less dues on my CFW contract and so I can swim the lazy river without jumping the fence incognito.