Line etiquette - holding spots

[JimmyV]

You keep using Fantasmic as a model. But try applying this thinking to actual rides.

The OP mentioned F!. I do not think that this works for anything other than static lines like F!, or the AK shows, or Beauty and the Beast, etc.

 

[sam_gordon]

Jimmy-

I think you have an interesting argument (about society determining what is "rude"), and I'm guessing that's never been proposed. A couple questions about your model though...

1) Let's say there's a group of 10. According to you, all 10 can get in line, then 9 should be able to leave (for whatever reason) and then rejoin the "scout", right? How long does the entire group need to wait in line? 1 minute? 10 seconds? 5 minutes? Do they even need to wait? Can the "scout" just go get in line (without the group) and then have the group join them?
2) I've never waited for F!, we've just gotten the "dinner & show" plan, so I don't know how the que is set up. But do you think you can apply this to attractions that have the ropes/chains lines set up?

 

[Reddog1134]

OK. Let me try it from another angle. Suppose a cast member with a megaphone announced to everyone in line for F! that today they were going to try something different, as long as everyone agreed. She offered that "if everyone in line was in agreement, we will allow one member from each party to remain in line and the rest of each group could go enjoy the park. 20 minutes before the show, everyone would be expected to be back in line right where they were before. By a show of hands, is there anyone here who thinks that this is a bad idea?" If offered this opportunity, there is no logic to refusing the offer and no benefit to be derived from turning this down. Everyone, unanimously, would take the CM up on her offer. Why? Because all of these people, collectively, decided that if everyone was to benefit equally, then it is not "rude" to enjoy this benefit. "Rude" is merely a state of mind that can be overcome if everyone participates equally and no one is getting hurt.

In the same vein, if you were next to last in line and the people behind you who were dead last tapped you on the shoulder and said: "I wouldn't mind if your family got out of line and enjoyed the park as long as one person stayed to save a place in line." If that offer were made, it would not be "rude" to take the person up on the offer because you have his permission. To share the pixie dust, you tap on the shoulder of the person in front of you and make the same offer. That person takes you up on it and taps the person in front of them, and so on and so on until this reaches the very front of the line. Every person has given every other person in front of them permission to engage in the behavior. So you see, rudeness is simply a function of permission. And if everyone in the world gave everyone else in the world permission to do something, then doing that thing ceases to be rude. If every Disney visitor agreed in advance with every other Disney visitor that having one person in line for F! is sufficient, then it wouldn't be rude to do so. So while I am in no way advocating that people act rudely, what I am suggesting here is that if everyone agreed to "virtually" tap each other on the shoulder and say: "I wouldn't mind if you took your family out of line to enjoy the park as long as you extend the same courtesy to me", then we would all improve our day at the park.

(Sorry. I really should have made this point in my first post as I think it is the most simple and noncontroversial way of looking at this. But I didn't think of phrasing it this way until now.)

I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make.

Are you saying everyone should just allow anyone to get in line where ever they want and then no one would feel cheated because we have previously decided that it is not rude?

 

[Sinestro]

OK. Let me try it from another angle. Suppose a cast member with a megaphone announced to everyone in line for F! that today they were going to try something different, as long as everyone agreed. She offered that "if everyone in line was in agreement, we will allow one member from each party to remain in line and the rest of each group could go enjoy the park. 20 minutes before the show, everyone would be expected to be back in line right where they were before. By a show of hands, is there anyone here who thinks that this is a bad idea?" If offered this opportunity, there is no logic to refusing the offer and no benefit to be derived from turning this down. Everyone, unanimously, would take the CM up on her offer. Why? Because all of these people, collectively, decided that if everyone was to benefit equally, then it is not "rude" to enjoy this benefit. "Rude" is merely a state of mind that can be overcome if everyone participates equally and no one is getting hurt.

In the same vein, if you were next to last in line and the people behind you who were dead last tapped you on the shoulder and said: "I wouldn't mind if your family got out of line and enjoyed the park as long as one person stayed to save a place in line." If that offer were made, it would not be "rude" to take the person up on the offer because you have his permission. To share the pixie dust, you tap on the shoulder of the person in front of you and make the same offer. That person takes you up on it and taps the person in front of them, and so on and so on until this reaches the very front of the line. Every person has given every other person in front of them permission to engage in the behavior. So you see, rudeness is simply a function of permission. And if everyone in the world gave everyone else in the world permission to do something, then doing that thing ceases to be rude. If every Disney visitor agreed in advance with every other Disney visitor that having one person in line for F! is sufficient, then it wouldn't be rude to do so. So while I am in no way advocating that people act rudely, what I am suggesting here is that if everyone agreed to "virtually" tap each other on the shoulder and say: "I wouldn't mind if you took your family out of line to enjoy the park as long as you extend the same courtesy to me", then we would all improve our day at the park.

(Sorry. I really should have made this point in my first post as I think it is the most simple and noncontroversial way of looking at this. But I didn't think of phrasing it this way until now.)

So lets say that each party averages 4 people. So 1 person stays and 3 people leave to do other things. Since most Fantasmic shows these days are full 30+ minutes before they start (my experience over several trips). This means we will have 2000 people waiting in line for 6000 family members. If those 6000 people all show up 20 minutes before the show you will have chaos.

I understand your concept, but with 8000 people involved I don't think it would work out exactly like you envisioned it. Also, for the 2nd show you would have 8000 people coming out as those 6000 tried to join their families.

There is already too much confusion in the current system and IMO I believe one such as you suggest would cause even more logistical issues regardless of if it is rude or not.

 

[JimmyV]

I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make.

Are you saying everyone should just allow anyone to get in line where ever they want and then no one would feel cheated because we have previously decided that it is not rude?

Not at all. One member of a group must establish a spot in line in an orderly fashion. That person cannot cut ahead of anyone that is in front of them. And one person from each group must remain in the line. At an appointed time, the rest of that person's group joins up with them.

Assume you have four families of four, and in each instance, the father has elected to be the scout. Whereas the conventional system has family #1 arriving first with all four people waiting in line and family #2 arrives second with all four people waiting in line and so on until we now have a line with 16 people in it, all of whom are bored and restless, the more efficient way of doing it would be to have the four fathers wait in line with father #1 first, father #2 second, and so on and have a line with 4 people instead of 16, and 12 people eating or riding rides instead of all being restless and bored. No cutting. No unfair behavior. Under either approach, the members of family #4 become the 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th people let into the venue. They lose nothing in terms of place spots, but three of them gain a lot by not wasting their time in line.

 

[JimmyV]

I understand your concept, but with 8000 people involved I don't think it would work out exactly like you envisioned it. Also, for the 2nd show you would have 8000 people coming out as those 6000 tried to join their families.

Very valid point. The point of the exercise is to demonstrate that something that we declare to be rude may not be rude at all. It may be that we just haven't thought the issue through enough and that giving other people permission to do something could actually make everyone's lives easier. If this practice were to be implemented, I doubt everyone would avail themselves of it, so you wouldn't have 6,000 people all arriving at the same time. And those that did seek to rejoin their groups would naturally stagger their return time. But ultimately, some changes in how the queue is set up might be needed.

 

[JimmyV]

Jimmy-

I think you have an interesting argument (about society determining what is "rude"), and I'm guessing that's never been proposed. A couple questions about your model though...

1) Let's say there's a group of 10. According to you, all 10 can get in line, then 9 should be able to leave (for whatever reason) and then rejoin the "scout", right? How long does the entire group need to wait in line? 1 minute? 10 seconds? 5 minutes? Do they even need to wait? Can the "scout" just go get in line (without the group) and then have the group join them?
2) I've never waited for F!, we've just gotten the "dinner & show" plan, so I don't know how the que is set up. But do you think you can apply this to attractions that have the ropes/chains lines set up?

In theory, only one person would have to get in line, but as a practical matter, everyone else would want to go initially so that the rest of the group could see where the scout is so that they could rejoin them later.

I cannot see this working for a "moving" queue such as Peter Pan.

 

[Sinestro]

Very valid point. The point of the exercise is to demonstrate that something that we declare to be rude may not be rude at all. It may be that we just haven't thought the issue through enough and that giving other people permission to do something could actually make everyone's lives easier. If this practice were to be implemented, I doubt everyone would avail themselves of it, so you wouldn't have 6,000 people all arriving at the same time. And those that did seek to rejoin their groups would naturally stagger their return time. But ultimately, some changes i how the queue is set up might be needed.

Please don't take this as a slam, but have you been to a Fantasmic showing since it was moved to only a couple of times a week. Even in what are considered slow times of the year this queue is a mad house and it is not an orderly single file line. More like a stampede when they open the gates to the show. Last time we were there (within the last month) the first show was at capacity and when the first show let out the inbound queue was packed to capacity. There was literally a sea of people on the area outside of the stadium with people trying to go both directions.

This has been the norm in our experience every time we have visited since the schedule changes.

As a discussion of rudeness your example is fine, but as a practical application of theory I think there is no way this would ever work.

You currently have the option of not waiting in line with your party for Fantasmic, but when you get there to join up there is no way you will be able to shove through that mass of people as they are waiting to enter the stadium.

Another issue is that if I stand in line for 90 minutes or more and then was blocked out of the show because it reached capacity, even though I was #4000 in line, it could cause alot of guest anger. Using your plan there would be no way to judge the number of people waiting for the show.

 

[JimmyV]

Last time we were there (within the last month) the first show was at capacity and when the first show let out the inbound queue was packed to capacity. There was literally a sea of people on the area outside of the stadium with people trying to go both directions.

I understand the issue. This means that the time at which everyone MUST be back in line would have to be moved back to at least half an hour before the line begins to move. Anyone that hasn't rejoined the line by that time would not be permitted to rejoin their group and would have to take their chances at the end of the line. I would think that if people begin to regroup 30-45 minutes before the line moves, you could get the herd fairly organized. No way am I suggesting that people try to rejoin groups as the line is moving.

Basically, the whole discussion revolves around holding a place in line for people who are going to be waiting a really long time. It wouldn't really apply to people who get in line 30-45 minutes before the line is going to move. How much are your going to get done in that time? No need to be concerned with people mid-way through the line or further back. In all likelihood, those people would assemble as entire groups and would have to if a hard and fast rule were put in place that mandated that everyone be back in their spots 30 minutes before the line moves.

Getting this back to the "tap on the shoulder" example, while I used the 'back of the line to the front of the line' example, in reality, it would work the other way around. The person who is first in line and who is going to wait the longest would ask the person in back of them, (who will also be waiting a really long time) if they could have some members of their party get out of line for a while. The second person in line can either say: "Sure. No problem. I understand", or "No. If I have to wait, then so do you. Nah Nah Nah". If they said "Sure", then maybe they might want to seek the same courtesy from the person behind them and so forth. In practice, not everyone would want to get out of line, and as the magic hour of reassembly approached, people wouldn't be able to. So ultimately, while there may be 8,000 people headed to F!, the number of people who would be out of line seeking to rejoin their group would not be all that bad. Yes, the theory exists that would allow for 6,000 out of 8,000 people to be out of line, but in practice, the number would be much smaller.

The point here is that if someone asks you if it is OK to do this, maybe the right answer is "Sure", instead of "No, that would be rude."

 

[dburg30]

For fantasmic I dont think it's a problem once you are in the seating. They actually announced that they wanted everyone to scoot as far as they could, they understood some were saving seats and that was ok, but to not leave spots that werent going to be used. And of course, you dont want them to wait til the last minute, they should still be there 'early' unless you want a problem on your hands with people wanting to sit there.

Other lines, ie: rides and such, nope, not ok.

 

[sam_gordon]

Not at all. One member of a group must establish a spot in line in an orderly fashion. That person cannot cut ahead of anyone that is in front of them. And one person from each group must remain in the line. At an appointed time, the rest of that person's group joins up with them.

Assume you have four families of four, and in each instance, the father has elected to be the scout. Whereas the conventional system has family #1 arriving first with all four people waiting in line and family #2 arrives second with all four people waiting in line and so on until we now have a line with 16 people in it, all of whom are bored and restless, the more efficient way of doing it would be to have the four fathers wait in line with father #1 first, father #2 second, and so on and have a line with 4 people instead of 16, and 12 people eating or riding rides instead of all being restless and bored. No cutting. No unfair behavior. Under either approach, the members of family #4 become the 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th people let into the venue. They lose nothing in terms of place spots, but three of them gain a lot by not wasting their time in line.

I get your idea, but what happens at the 'end' of the line? I don't know how many F! seats, I'll use the 8000 number thrown out earlier in addition to the "average" group of four you use. Using your theory, 2K people need to be in line. But what happens when person 2001 gets in line? Once everyone rejoins the line, number 2001 won't have a seat.

I do like your comparison to concert tickets & wrist bands... I can see a CM start handing out wrist bands 3 hours (pick a time) before the show. Once you get a wrist band, you can come back anytime after they open the gates until 30 minutes before the show and get in. No wrist band... here's a "standby" line. 30 minutes before the show, the standby folks are allowed in until the theater is full. If you have a wrist band and come back with less than 30 minutes left... sorry, join the standby line.

 

[WDWDad]

Jimmy what color is the sky in your world?

Assuming that everyone would agree (Doubtful) what happens to the first family that gets in line, behind 500 people, who knows nothing of the announcement that has just been made. They stay based on decision that there is only 500 people in front of them. Based on the rules, they believe they should get a good spot, or reasonable wait based on the attraction. Is it then fair to them and their family that 2000 more people arrive just before showtime/ride and take their rightful spots for which this family had no knowledge? While now not considered rude by some vote which they had no voice in, surely they are being treated unfairly because they made a decision based on the size of the crowd to attend this show. Had they known that 2000 people had preference over them, by the way this number could vary widely, they may have made the decision to do this another time and have experienced several other attractions.

How would Disney estimate standby times if at any time a ratio of anywhere between 1 and 10 times that many people could have reserved spots in line?

As a group we could decide the sky is green, doesn't make it so for us, or all the other people who don't participate in our delusion.

Manners are manners, they are developed over time based on what as a society we percieve to be the right thing to do in a given circumstance. Asking humanity as a whole to reconsider will get you debate, but not consensus. So until then cutting in line is just that, rude. It was rude in the 3rd grade lunch line, it was rude at the high school football game, it was rude at the finanacial aid line at college, and it is a Disney as well.

So we are left with he definition of rude. Most people seem to express that they understand the plight of a parent leaving the line to take care of a potty break. Most express understanding for a family member returning to line for whatever reason to join their family who have only been in line a few minutes. What most object to is a person, or group of people returning to join a line that they have left for a considerable time, or were never in in the first place. The difference here is that someone is trying to gain an advantage over others. That is not right. Until Disney changes the rule then all those attending Disney must abide by the same set of rules, any deviation is done in manner not considerate of those who are following those rules.

 

[Coach81]

 

[MikeandReneePlus5]

They should just have tickets with assigned seating, like Disney On Ice at my local venue.

End of problem.

And that queue is a little scary. Would not shock me to read of a trample related injury at some point.

 

[Tinkerbellie16]

OP - Thank you for taking the time to ask the question rather than assuming anything. Whether it is your first time visiting or your 20th, sometimes you don't know the answer to these things. Disney's official stance,

"Thank you for contacting us regarding the Walt Disney World® Resort.

The general rule for parties in line is that every member of the group
must be present and enter the attraction together. Another person
showing up later, for any reason, is typically not allowed to catch up
with their party. We hope this answers your question."

While you can see they have a 'general rule', there are many folks that have experienced kind CM's who will let you catch back up to your party in the case of a child who must use the restroom and the line is extremely long. If you have a particular issue (such as a need to use a restroom), it is always best to ask a CM if you can get back to your place in line or if you must go to the end of the line.

 

[Sassagoula Billy]

This. Thank you, DisneyDad.

Jimmy what color is the sky in your world?

Assuming that everyone would agree (Doubtful) what happens to the first family that gets in line, behind 500 people, who knows nothing of the announcement that has just been made. They stay based on decision that there is only 500 people in front of them. Based on the rules, they believe they should get a good spot, or reasonable wait based on the attraction. Is it then fair to them and their family that 2000 more people arrive just before showtime/ride and take their rightful spots for which this family had no knowledge? While now not considered rude by some vote which they had no voice in, surely they are being treated unfairly because they made a decision based on the size of the crowd to attend this show. Had they known that 2000 people had preference over them, by the way this number could vary widely, they may have made the decision to do this another time and have experienced several other attractions.

How would Disney estimate standby times if at any time a ratio of anywhere between 1 and 10 times that many people could have reserved spots in line?

As a group we could decide the sky is green, doesn't make it so for us, or all the other people who don't participate in our delusion.

Manners are manners, they are developed over time based on what as a society we percieve to be the right thing to do in a given circumstance. Asking humanity as a whole to reconsider will get you debate, but not consensus. So until then cutting in line is just that, rude. It was rude in the 3rd grade lunch line, it was rude at the high school football game, it was rude at the finanacial aid line at college, and it is a Disney as well.

So we are left with he definition of rude. Most people seem to express that they understand the plight of a parent leaving the line to take care of a potty break. Most express understanding for a family member returning to line for whatever reason to join their family who have only been in line a few minutes. What most object to is a person, or group of people returning to join a line that they have left for a considerable time, or were never in in the first place. The difference here is that someone is trying to gain an advantage over others. That is not right. Until Disney changes the rule then all those attending Disney must abide by the same set of rules, any deviation is done in manner not considerate of those who are following those rules.

 

[jpolak]

 

[mom of2]

I don't believe in line holding for any reason. If you have to go to the restroom or whatever, you need to go to the end of the line. If you want to experience the attraction, you need to stand in line for the entire time just like everyone else

 

[momtotaryn]

OP - Thank you for taking the time to ask the question rather than assuming anything. Whether it is your first time visiting or your 20th, sometimes you don't know the answer to these things. Disney's official stance,

"Thank you for contacting us regarding the Walt Disney World® Resort.

The general rule for parties in line is that every member of the group
must be present and enter the attraction together. Another person
showing up later, for any reason, is typically not allowed to catch up
with their party. We hope this answers your question."

While you can see they have a 'general rule', there are many folks that have experienced kind CM's who will let you catch back up to your party in the case of a child who must use the restroom and the line is extremely long. If you have a particular issue (such as a need to use a restroom), it is always best to ask a CM if you can get back to your place in line or if you must go to the end of the line.

And thank you, Tinkerbellie16, for your post. As a first timer to WDW, it is good to know what Disney's official policy is, so that we are aware of it. We are frequent visitors to Las Vegas, and for long buffet lines, it appears to be acceptable for one person to stand in line while the others in the group explore the casinos. In fact, my good friend who lives there even encouraged it, since she said we are tourists there, and she is not, so she wanted us to look around or play while she waited. This example seems to be similar to that of waiting in line for Fantasmic! or a ride, so I am glad it was addressed in this thread. I would never want to assume anything, especially if it is considered rude and unacceptable.

 

[MomtoAlexnWilliam]

OP - Thank you for taking the time to ask the question rather than assuming anything. Whether it is your first time visiting or your 20th, sometimes you don't know the answer to these things. Disney's official stance,

"Thank you for contacting us regarding the Walt Disney World® Resort.

The general rule for parties in line is that every member of the group
must be present and enter the attraction together. Another person
showing up later, for any reason, is typically not allowed to catch up
with their party. We hope this answers your question."

While you can see they have a 'general rule', there are many folks that have experienced kind CM's who will let you catch back up to your party in the case of a child who must use the restroom and the line is extremely long. If you have a particular issue (such as a need to use a restroom), it is always best to ask a CM if you can get back to your place in line or if you must go to the end of the line.

There is the answer from Disney! In light of that answer, JimmyV, all of your reasoning is moot. It is rude and against Disney policy to hold places in line. Case closed.