Less Than Impressed

[brentm77]

Disney WANTS the parks full year round. Why in the world would they want low crowds? The more people the more revenue.

Because, at some point, parks that are too full drive away tourists, who spend more than AP's while in the parks. This is especially true if AP revenue can be kept the same by increasing prices. But, yes, they would lose some revenue spent by those AP's that may not be made up with increased or sustained tourists.

The second reason is that it appears to be taking a toll on the rides and infrastructure of the park.

The third reason is that it harms the brand long term. Every guest that has a disappointing experience tells three other potential customers, who tell three more, etc. In the long run, the brand starts to lose its value.

However, the earlier poster may have a point. Maybe there are a thousand other people willing to take my place next year if I decide not to go. Maybe I am a rare exception that has reached the point where crowds may keep me away. But if the normal rule of business is true - one person complaining means there are many more who don't complain.

Yes, there are times when you can hit that sweet timing and the park isn't overflowing. But, it is almost impossible to time as a tourist that needs to plan months in advance. Touring Plans is useless and it seems to be hit or miss, even in months like February, despite the best planning and calculations. A coworker who took his family in a traditionally slow time in February last year complained of how crowded it was.

That said, I understand the arguments for keeping the park full. It is all wishful thinking on my part and I don't expect it to change. I will probably continue to go for the next five or so years until my girls are raised. Especially after the much improved experience at DCA. After that, if nothing has changed, it will be time to take a break and spend more of my tourist dollars elsewhere.

In any case, I am extremely grateful to have made so many happy memories over that past many years, and hopefully will make some great new ones in the coming years.

Thanks for the interesting debate everyone.

 

[figment_jii]

Jory, when in Nov did you go? We are looking at either before or right after T-giving time. May crowds at WDW did us in majorly this year and the new FP was not great for us and it was already 95 degrees or storming for days at a time. We have never tried DLR but are thinking the weather and crowds would be good around that time, but don't want to miss stuff being taken down for refurb etc. We would do weekday to weekday so we could get some weekdays in and then some of the weekend in case we needed a busier day for shows/fireworks? That's the plan so far anyway....

November can be a good or bad time to go depending on when you go (in terms of crowds). The week of Thanksgiving is usually very busy, but the week before or after have the possibility of being good. Assuming this year is like the last few, the parks will be in holiday mode by then, meaning the Christmas decorations will be up, Believe in Holiday Magic Fireworks will be presented, the Christmas Parade will be running and (if they do it again this year), World of Color will be the holiday version. Most likely, Fantasmic will only run on weekends, but fireworks, WoC, and the Christmas Parade will be nightly. The weekends will likely be very busy, but the weekdays should be okay. It is worth noting that the weekend of 11/15-16 is a marathon weekend (Avengers), so crowds will likely be high. Assuming the schedule is similar to last year, Candlelight Processional will probably be on 12/6-7, which does increase crowds in DL on Main Street (primarily).

 

[brentm77]

I completely disagree with this statement. Raising prices would hurt the average customer/guest experience because AP holders are guests too and how much they enjoy the parks should also matter.

That is a valid point. I was looking at it as the less of two evils - one group not being able to visit many times a years, versus another group not being able to visit at all. Or course, that is assuming that raising prices is the best option. And maybe it isn't. Maybe it is better to just fill the parks to the brim with people who don't care about crowds like me and others do. I just hope Disney invests in better ride maintenance if it continues down that path.

 

[TwinPrincessMermaids]

November can be a good or bad time to go depending on when you go (in terms of crowds). The week of Thanksgiving is usually very busy, but the week before or after have the possibility of being good. Assuming this year is like the last few, the parks will be in holiday mode by then, meaning the Christmas decorations will be up, Believe in Holiday Magic Fireworks will be presented, the Christmas Parade will be running and (if they do it again this year), World of Color will be the holiday version. Most likely, Fantasmic will only run on weekends, but fireworks, WoC, and the Christmas Parade will be nightly. The weekends will likely be very busy, but the weekdays should be okay. It is worth noting that the weekend of 11/15-16 is a marathon weekend (Avengers), so crowds will likely be high. Assuming the schedule is similar to last year, Candlelight Processional will probably be on 12/6-7, which does increase crowds in DL on Main Street (primarily).

...siighh.... as someone who will not participate in holiday festivities, it sounds like its not worth going then since every firework or anything new to me (like WOC) will be a holiday feature... Sept/Oct are even worse. June/July/Aug are peak season and ridiculously hot. Which brings it back to Spring, which is normally my favorite time to go to Disney (no holidays and typically less crowds.)

Maybe I will go back to looking around my Mar/Apr and hope that without a mid-week cruise and without a Stars Wars themed month, we will have slightly less crowds. Good news being that it comes a lot faster...

 

[HydroGuy]

...siighh.... as someone who will not participate in holiday festivities, it sounds like its not worth going then since every firework or anything new to me (like WOC) will be a holiday feature... Sept/Oct are even worse. June/July/Aug are peak season and ridiculously hot. Which brings it back to Spring, which is normally my favorite time to go to Disney (no holidays and typically less crowds.)

Maybe I will go back to looking around my Mar/Apr and hope that without a mid-week cruise and without a Stars Wars themed month, we will have slightly less crowds. Good news being that it comes a lot faster...

June/July/August are not ridiculously hot. See "Detailed Weather Data for DLR" www.disboards.com/showthread.php?p=23004158 for average temperatures.

June - Average Hi/Lo 81/61 F (27/16 C)
July - Average Hi/Lo 87/65 F (31/18.6 C)
August - Average Hi/Lo 89/65 F (32/18.5 C)

During the occasional heat wave it does get much hotter and can be ridiculously hot at times. But on average it is not. I have been fortunate that for the last 12 years of summer trips to DLR I have never been on a day that hit 90 degrees and most days peaked in high 70's to low 80's. I did go on a 100 degree day back in 1989.

The mornings and evenings are very pleasant and cool.

If you plan smart and take an afternoon break to swim and cool off and nap, then you avoid the peak temperatures which IMO are warm but not ridiculous. On average.

 

[HydroGuy]

Because, at some point, parks that are too full drive away tourists, who spend more than AP's while in the parks. This is especially true if AP revenue can be kept the same by increasing prices. But, yes, they would lose some revenue spent by those AP's that may not be made up with increased or sustained tourists.

Your statement reminds me of the Yogi Berra saying about a favorite restaurant - "Nobody goes there anymore because it is too crowded".

I think Disney did successfully cut back on some of the AP number by raising prices. Now they are cutting out the specially discounted SoCal AP categories which will further reduce the numbers. I wish I had that data. I do not think it is the AP holders who are driving up attendance. I think it is because Disney has done a great job of developing the resort, hit a grand slam with the DCA upgrade and CarsLand, is doing a great job with synergies with their film business (think Frozen and the 4 hours waits to see Anna and Elsa at DL), and is doing a great job of marketing their product.

On top of that, it does seem WDW is alienating some of the their long time fans who are making their way to DLR as an alternative. Thus driving up attendance. Attendance numbers will be interesting to see for 2014 and 2015.

 

[TwinPrincessMermaids]

Gotcha. How about crowds?

 

[brentm77]

Your statement reminds me of the Yogi Berra saying about a favorite restaurant - "Nobody goes there anymore because it is too crowded".

Touche'.

 

[Suelala]

Where can I find a reliable crowd prediction for DLR? I live on the west coast, but always go to WDW. I would love to give DLR a try, but cant figure out when is a good time to go. I am thinking of a Mon-Fri so I can leave the parks when they get crowded , but I just cant figure out a good time of year to go. Suggestions? thanks!

 

[figment_jii]

Where can I find a reliable crowd prediction for DLR? I live on the west coast, but always go to WDW. I would love to give DLR a try, but cant figure out when is a good time to go. I am thinking of a Mon-Fri so I can leave the parks when they get crowded , but I just cant figure out a good time of year to go. Suggestions? thanks!

Honestly, I don't think there are any real good crowd predictors out there. Touring Plans is pretty wonky and there is nothing like easyWDW for DLR. Some folks like isitpacked.com, but there isn't really much to say where the data comes from.

I think your best bet is to actually ask here on the Disboard and see what folks say. The Disboard has posters who have been going for years and have a pretty good handle on the crowds. Also, HydroGuy has a good overview thread:
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?p=36509602

 

[jory29]

Jory, when in Nov did you go? We are looking at either before or right after T-giving time. May crowds at WDW did us in majorly this year and the new FP was not great for us and it was already 95 degrees or storming for days at a time. We have never tried DLR but are thinking the weather and crowds would be good around that time, but don't want to miss stuff being taken down for refurb etc. We would do weekday to weekday so we could get some weekdays in and then some of the weekend in case we needed a busier day for shows/fireworks? That's the plan so far anyway....

That was years ago, before DIsneyland was as big of a hit as it is now - My daughter is 12 now, and she was 5 then. So, around 6 and a half years ago. We have never seen the parks with as thin crowds as we did back then. I think basically, a person just goes with the mindset to have fun, there will be a lot of people there, lol.

That was good advice given to you by TwinPrincessMermaids, regarding crowds these days, for a November outlook.

 

[Suelala]

I think your best bet is to actually ask here on the Disboard and see what folks say. The Disboard has posters who have been going for years and have a pretty good handle on the crowds. Also, HydroGuy has a good overview thread:
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?p=36509602

Thanks! That's what I was afraid of. I also love easy wdw! Was hoping to find something like that for DLR, but I guess it just might not be as easy to predict since there are so many day guests. Going to read HydroGuys thread now. He does seem to know a lot!

 

[SMD]

There's no way you can say that a guest who takes an annual trip absolutely spends more than an AP. If someone uses a 5 day PH and eats 3 meals per day in the park, a daily snack and buys a pin every day, a t-shirt and some other souvenir, that might be more than an AP would spend over 5 days. But over the course of the year, most local APs will exceed that. What if you spend $1000 in the parks on your 5 day trip but I spend $2000, or $3000 or more in my 35 days in the park. To say that an APs money is somehow less valuable is selfish. There are guests in every category that spend more or less, yet Disney remains first come, first served as far as daily admission and attractions. You don't like the conditions, vote with your vacation budget and spend elsewhere. But don't ask someone else to stand aside because you think you're more important.

 

[blackjackdelta]

OP My opinion, the best way to change things is to vote with your dollar. Become a Disney share holder, go to the shareholder meetings and express your opinions, I am sure you will find someone to listen to you. Yes it is getting busy and Disney is changing how they do things with the park...60 years later it is still doing fairly well on Walts idea.

Jack

 

[dsny1mom]

Because, at some point, parks that are too full drive away tourists, who spend more than AP's while in the parks. This is especially true if AP revenue can be kept the same by increasing prices. But, yes, they would lose some revenue spent by those AP's that may not be made up with increased or sustained tourists.

The second reason is that it appears to be taking a toll on the rides and infrastructure of the park.

The third reason is that it harms the brand long term. Every guest that has a disappointing experience tells three other potential customers, who tell three more, etc. In the long run, the brand starts to lose its value.

However, the earlier poster may have a point. Maybe there are a thousand other people willing to take my place next year if I decide not to go. Maybe I am a rare exception that has reached the point where crowds may keep me away. But if the normal rule of business is true - one person complaining means there are many more who don't complain.

Yes, there are times when you can hit that sweet timing and the park isn't overflowing. But, it is almost impossible to time as a tourist that needs to plan months in advance. Touring Plans is useless and it seems to be hit or miss, even in months like February, despite the best planning and calculations. A coworker who took his family in a traditionally slow time in February last year complained of how crowded it was.

That said, I understand the arguments for keeping the park full. It is all wishful thinking on my part and I don't expect it to change. I will probably continue to go for the next five or so years until my girls are raised. Especially after the much improved experience at DCA. After that, if nothing has changed, it will be time to take a break and spend more of my tourist dollars elsewhere.

In any case, I am extremely grateful to have made so many happy memories over that past many years, and hopefully will make some great new ones in the coming years.

Thanks for the interesting debate everyone.

I disagree. If bigger crowds kept people away the attendance numbers would be declining and they aren't. If the parks were at capacity on a regular basis then I could see many not wanting to go due to overcrowding. DL rarely reaches capacity and when it does it is usually only for a few hours on only the busiest of days like NYE.

I also disagree that APs are causing additional strain to the attractions and infrastructure. Many local APs don't ride many if any attractions, but go for the shows, atmosphere and to dine. If anyone is stressing the attractions it would be those that just go for the rides, and that tends to be tourists, not locals. BTW I don't have a dog in that fight as I live 2000 miles from DL.

Since when does anything being popular devalue a brand? The more a brand is desired the more people will flock to it. The #1 complaint about theme parks is having to wait in lines, not too many people in the parks! Disney does understand people want shorter waits in line and they are working to ease that with FP+ at DW.

You liked DL when there was a slow season. Then DL became DLR and there is no longer a slow season. The former slow seasons were a problem for DL that they have solved by getting more people through the gates. DL is a business after all and for them to not address a problem would be foolish.

People complain about a lot of things and sure more than one person will generally have the same complaint. However in theme parks across the country crowds are expected and there are people that won't go to any theme park because they don't like to wait in line, etc. That certainly hasn't effected the theme park industry, as it is thriving. Again, in the past you visited when the crowds were low so your expectation of what visiting a theme park is skewed from what most people's expectations of a theme park experience is.

I do understand how you feel, though. I much preferred when DL was still just DL. No DTD, no DCA no GCH, just DL and the DLH with the special DLH tram taking me to the front gates! My biggest fear was always that DL would turn into DW with all the changes and growth. I'm happy to say that even with all the changes the heart of DL is still there and DL still remains very unlike DW! I bet if you altered your touring or visit timing and mostly your crowd expectations you could still make fabulous memories for many years to come!

dsny1mom

 

[whjensen]

I ran the numbers with the following assumptions:
A Good Neighbor hotel guest spends $40/day per person (NOT family) in the park for food, $180/visit per person for merchandise (likely a little low, but good enough), and $265 for a 3 day park hopper totaling $565 per person for the park. For a Disney property, it shoots up to $1,240 (based on $450/night with 2.5 per hotel room. If you add more family members, the avg per guest goes down. I also upped food to $65/day/person and merchandise to $80) for a total of $1,240. There are assuming the average tourist goes for 3 days.

For an AP member, I assume 25 visits per year with one meal at the park ($20) and $250 in merchandise per year with a blended average of $400 for the AP. Their value is ~$1,150. They may be a little less, but they offer DL a buffer against hard economic times to keep the parks running.

I think the reality is that Disneyland is trying to find equilibrium. But unless they can get more hotel rooms belonging to Disney, it's better economics for them to sell more APs than cater to more tourists.

It won't make me feel any better the next time I go stand in line for x amount of hours but it's the right business decision.

 

[CrazyDuck]

I wish they would make it prohibitively expensive for the majority. $500 for a single day hopper $2,000 for a 5 day hopper. No annual passes. That should take care of the crowds! Just cater to the top 5%...

 

[TwinPrincessMermaids]

I wish they would make it prohibitively expensive for the majority. $500 for a single day hopper $2,000 for a 5 day hopper. No annual passes. That should take care of the crowds! Just cater to the top 5%...

They have concierge royal suites on their ships. Pretty much what that is! Oo-wee.

 

[Gisele]

I wish they would make it prohibitively expensive for the majority. $500 for a single day hopper $2,000 for a 5 day hopper. No annual passes. That should take care of the crowds! Just cater to the top 5%...

Lol

 

[tarheelalum]

I wish they would make it prohibitively expensive for the majority. $500 for a single day hopper $2,000 for a 5 day hopper. No annual passes. That should take care of the crowds! Just cater to the top 5%...

Or the top 1% like club 33.