Latest SwiftBoats Vets commercial...

[inaminute]

I live in an area where EVERY radio talk show leans heavily to the right, and I can easily pick up Limbaugh, Hannity, and O'Reilly.

And I turn them off just as quickly. They do nothing to influence how I see the issues. Neither do the politicians, neither do celebrities, and even less the political commercials. I listen to what everyone has to say (particularly debates) and make up my own mind--based on my morals and value system.

I certainly can't be unique in this?

The media is a tool for receiving information. Nothing more. Nothing less. I don't take the opinions of those in the media as anything more than one person's viewpoint. And, just because they resort to less-than-desireable behavior doesn't mean I must join them.

I didn't mean to imply that the OP was lying...just that the commercial was.

I'm sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying.

...just look at Kerry's numbers since these Swift liars hit the scene.

I'm not sure Kerry's numbers have a lot to do with the Swiftboat vets ads. Senator Kerry does have some other problematic issues. It may simply be a matter of timing. People are making up their minds based on the other issues, and it's finally showing in the polls? I'm not saying this is what has happened--just making a suggestion.

I find it unlikely that these ads have had that great an effect in such a short period of time, although that certainly COULD be the case. I guess I just have more faith that the American people know when they're being manipulated.

Even McCain and Guiliani - two men I once respected - have gotten into the sliming business.

Are you referring to their speeches at the convention last night? Or is there another commercial that I'm not aware of?

 

[TXTink]

The rolling on the floor laughing heads really bother me.....especially when it is the only retort to a powerful point. I think it makes the poster look very silly. So, I guess in the end, it just makes me discount anything more that is posted by that person.

 

[MICKEY88]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Thanks....I, uh, think

Seriously, though...I didn't mean to imply that the OP was lying...just that the commercial was. To quote Bill Maher, why is it that a toothpaste commercial, by law, is required to be truthful, while a slimy attack like that doesn't have to prove a thing ?

As for the smart aleck comments and the sarcasm....I live in an area where EVERY radio talk show leans heavily to the right, and I can easily pick up Limbaugh, Hannity, and O'Reilly. In addition, those same people are on cable news all the time, and are CONSTANT in their attacks against thing that I believe in very strongly. So yes, I've started to take the same tack that they have in making my points.

I realize that I (quite often) come off as condescending to some people on this board, but you have to realize that I am ALWAYS being treated that way by those in the media (well, not me personally, but anyone with my beliefs). Again, I would certainly argue that it is those on the right that have set the tone of the debate, and I am merely following their example. I don't think you have to look any further than the current "debate" to see that invective, sarcasm, and flat out attack work much better than reasoned argument...just look at Kerry's numbers since these Swift liars hit the scene. Even McCain and Guiliani - two men I once respected - have gotten into the sliming business.

if you choose to emulate those you despise then you are no better than they are,

is that what you really want for yourself..??

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by MICKEY88
if you choose to emulate those you despise then you are no better than they are,

is that what you really want for yourself..??

No, but how do you channel that anger invoked by someone like We3DLuvDisney who makes constant attacks and belittles everything you stand for an believe in ? Yes, I realize that I am lowering myself to their level....But if they refuse to rise to mine, how else can you fight that kind of slime ?

 

[MICKEY88]

Originally posted by wvrevy
No, but how do you channel that anger invoked by someone like We3DLuvDisney who makes constant attacks and belittles everything you stand for an believe in ? Yes, I realize that I am lowering myself to their level....But if they refuse to rise to mine, how else can you fight that kind of slime ?

by maintaining the high road and debating with intellect and fact, you gain nothing by lowering yourself, you only lose respect from others....

the average person will listen to a viewpoint that sounds intelligent, yet tune out one that is sarcastic, disrespectful and includes name calling..

if you truly stand behind your beliefs another should not anger you by questioning or even belittling them, if you know deep down inside that you are right, then firmly but wisely debate. with the understanding that others will have different viewpoints

when both sides debate with anger, neither wins, because no one will be influenced by anger

if lowering ones self to the level of their oponents is a good thing, then the US soldiers accused of abusing of prisoners, could justify their behaviour by saying they lowered themselves to the level of the enemy.... and I don't think any of us want to think that the US is barbaric..

 

[inaminute]

Mickey88--Perfectly stated.

 

[disney4us2002]

Originally posted by wvrevy
No, but how do you channel that anger invoked by someone like We3DLuvDisney who makes constant attacks and belittles everything you stand for an believe in ? Yes, I realize that I am lowering myself to their level....But if they refuse to rise to mine, how else can you fight that kind of slime ?

Hmmm, just did a quick glance via search on we3 and didn't see any posts where s/he insulted you. You, on the other hand, insulted her/him a few times, just today. There are several in the "McCain rocks" thread. Her signature is what invokes your anger? I'm sure there are some that haven't cared for your Worst pres signature either. If his/her signature bothers you that much you have several choices - turn off signatures or put her on ignore.

 

[palmtreegirl]

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=244

They have a whole page devoted to these commercials in which they sort out the facts. It's a nonpartisan site.

It's a very informative read, check it out and then decide for yourself.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by disney4us2002
Hmmm, just did a quick glance via search on we3 and didn't see any posts where s/he insulted you. You, on the other hand, insulted her/him a few times, just today. There are several in the "McCain rocks" thread. Her signature is what invokes your anger? I'm sure there are some that haven't cared for your Worst pres signature either. If his/her signature bothers you that much you have several choices - turn off signatures or put her on ignore.

1) Unless that search also turns up PM's, then no, you wouldn't see all the repugnant things that We3 has said.

2) Every post is a direct insult to any democrat. My signature is an insult to one public person. I'm sorry you can't see the difference, but it is right there in plain sight.

3) I refuse to turn off signatures just to avoid looking at one stupid line by one poster. I've already complained about the signature (as have others) and apparently the administrators disagree, so that's all I can do. Maybe I should put a signature in that reads: "Only an idiot would vote republican" and see if that's also alright with you.

4) I refuse to use the Ignore function for one simple reason....When outright lies are posted I want to see them in order to counter them. I don't like letting a liar get away with saying whatever they want with nobody to debunk their claims, so I don't like the ignore feature because I want to see it when it happens.

 

[OceanAnnie]

Originally posted by wvrevy
See...this is the problem with those ads...They show only PART of what Kerry actually said. It's creative editing, and it's nauseating that these guys are allowed to get away with these outright lies. It'd be like my saying, "I was just talking to a friend of mine, and he told me he had robbed a bank" and the only part you here is the "I" and the "robbed a bank" part.

Do Republicans think people are stupid ? Is that the reason they won't give people the whole story about anything ? Are they afraid, given the chance, people might actually come to their own conclusions if they actually had all the information ?

Interesting. I don't usually respond to the political threads. But I must state:

I saw the exact same things stated about the Michael Moore film.
The exact same things.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by OceanAnnie
Interesting. I don't usually respond to the political threads. But I must state:

I saw the exact same things stated about the Michael Moore film.
The exact same things.

That's because Michael Moore did EXACTLY the same things in that film, at least in places...But Moore's film wasn't shown on prime time television, 7 days a week in battleground states around the country. It was shown to people that paid to go see it.

 

[OceanAnnie]

Originally posted by wvrevy
That's because Michael Moore did EXACTLY the same things in that film, at least in places...But Moore's film wasn't shown on prime time television, 7 days a week in battleground states around the country. It was shown to people that paid to go see it.

Respectfully, I think if it's wrong, it's wrong. No matter who is doing it or the venue.

If the Swift Boat Vets are lying, they are wrong to sully a man's reputation. Period. But if they are telling the truth, they deserve to be heard.

It *reminds* me of all those accusations from women about President Clinton. Everyone said they were all liars. Putting political party aside, I doubted they were all liars. And the truth came out in the end.

My *opinion*, in this case the truth will also come out in the end.
Right, wrong or indifferent.

 

[Abracadabra]

Originally posted by OceanAnnie
My *opinion*, in this case the truth will also come out in the end.
Right, wrong or indifferent.

I believe this to be true also...

However, once someone's reputation, honor and service have been tarnished/smeared, it is not a simple or easy task to recover them. Too often the damage that is done, especially in the political realm, is permanent. Look at John McCain -- I doubt that he would run for President again. Too many politicans enter politics with honorable intentions, but soon find the rough and tumble world damages them beyond belief.

I believe that we get what we are willing to tolerate. The American public has grown too willing to tolerate an ever-increasing "politics of personal destruction" as is evidenced by this year's campaigns and not just the presidential ones either. It is too quickly seeping down into Senate and House campaigns, then into state and now even local elections.

I wonder if we are truly ready to live with what we appear to be willing to tolerate in politics.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Abracadabra
I wonder if we are truly ready to live with what we appear to be willing to tolerate in politics.

Obviously, quite a few people are, including several on these very boards.

When the level of debate has sunk so far that people like the woman pictured above have no problem wearing fake purple hearts in an effort to mock one candidate -- completely ignoring the fact that they are also insulting the thousands of GI's out there that also have those medals -- how can anyone fight against that ? I GUARANTEE you that there will be people defending this...um..."person"...In this thread. GUARANTEE it.

 

[TXTink]

Republican spokesman said ...This was not a party activity, he was acting as an individual....

They were asked to remove them, no such actions will be tolerated by the Republican party.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by TXTink
Republican spokesman said ...This was not a party activity, he was acting as an individual....

They were asked to remove them, no such actions will be tolerated by the Republican party.

Yeah...Isn't it just simply amazing that it's NEVER the Republicans or Bush that are behind these kinds of nauseating tactics ? It's always just some "independant" operator.

How many times are people going to let them get away with this ?

 

[ckr]

Would mocking a Purple Heart by throwing it away also be (quote) "insulting the thousands of GI's out there that also have those medals"?

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by ckr
Would mocking a Purple Heart by throwing it away also be (quote) "insulting the thousands of GI's out there that also have those medals"?

Not if they earned them they wouldn't...but nice try

But hey...At least Bush still has his medals from his valorous service, right ?

 

[ckr]

You're getting less and less coherent by the post!

Should we also believe that the naked protesters were directly linked to Kerry? I don't think I've heard anyone make that claim. Yet any anti-Kerry protests are directly linked to Bush...??


Logic, man. Logic. You're losing it

 

[wvrevy]

So, when you can't respond, just insult the person, is that how it works ? Classy

But as to your post: when a pattern just keeps resurfacing, you can pretend that it's not there all you want. That doesn't make it so. Bush has benefitted, since his first election as governor of Texas, from "outside" groups viciously attacking his opponent, all while he sits back with his smarmy little smile and claims innocence. He did it to Anne Richards, he did it to John McCain. He did it to Al Gore. And he's doing it to John Kerry.

How much evidence do you need that the guy (or someone in his camp) is slimy ?

But that's ok...Just sit back and pretend you don't see anything....Those are FINE robes the emporer is wearing, aren't they ?