Knock off purses. Why?

[Ember]

I have nothing against facts, I have a question. Why those replica bags, watches, jewerly are so widely available online. They do not sell them on Canal Street in NY anymore, they openly sell them online. Just enter Dior bags for example, you will get couple of real bags sites and tons of replicas, right in the name of site. Why nobody arrests them. They do provide, email, payment info and so on. Why aren't they busted. Just a bit weird to me.

From the reading I've done, and to be upfront I'm a little behind on some of this... Criminology was a few years ago!.. But my understanding is that online merchants are harder to track down because of the loops they can go through in spoofing computer ID's. Even with accepting payment, it can be easy to "hide" where the money eventually ends up. Tracing the criminals through cyberspace can take a lot of time and resources are limited. Also, most organizations dedicated to stopping counterfeiting are focused on the production and shipping of the goods which is where the big time problems are.

Edit: Okay, I did some quick hunting and also came up with this:

Many observers believe that, aside from New York City, government agencies do not take the problem of counterfeiting seriously enough. Distracted by terrorism and other more traditional crime, law enforcement has little time or energy left to address this issue. "One intellectual property lawyer told me that he was told by law enforcement that unless there was a dead body involved, 'don't even pick up the phone'" writes Phillips.

In its Canal Street raid, the Office of Special Enforcement followed an innovative "landlord-based" approach that targeted the estate of Vincent Terranova, the owner of three buildings that housed the illegal vendors. The estate had been named in an earlier lawsuit filed in the Federal District Court in Manhattan by luxury good brands such as Burberry and Marc Jacobs, according to the New York Times. Before the raid, undercover police officers and city agents made over 40 purchases of counterfeit goods. The city obtained a temporary restraining order against Terranova Properties which keeps the building closed until proof is provided that there is no more illegal activity.

"This is the largest operation we've done," said Office of Special Enforcement Director Shari Hyman.

However, most experts agree that ending, or at least limiting, the sale of counterfeit goods requires more than a law enforcement approach. The key is to challenge the widely held notion among consumers that buying counterfeit goods is a victimless crime and a harmless exercise in bargain hunting. "Until we deal with the demand side of the equation, it's a lost cause" said Joiner.

"We need consumers to help us instead of burying their heads in the sand," said Commissioner Ray Kelly in a press release. "No matter how 'victimless' a crime may appear, when you scratch the surface you are bound to find some unpleasant realities. That's true in the knock-off trade."​

* http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/crime/20080331/4/2476

Again, I only did a quick Google hunt. I'm not generally big on Google University for facts, but as an opinion it offers some insight.

 

[Belle5]

But I wil say, I have not bought a new bag in 3 years because the designers are very well made.

Lots of people that I know use this as a reason to buy a $450 purse. I can honestly say that for the past ten years I have basically rotated the same two purses. One is a Liz Claiborne that was about $25 at TJ MAXX--tons of compliments on that one...Another was $100 leather purse from Dillards that my DH purchased as a gift for me at 50% off making it $50. They have held up wonderfully!

I don't stand in judgment of anyone because of what they wear or carry. I could easily afford an expensive purse but have little interest. I would rather go on vacation or go out to dinner with our houseful of young men. Those are the ways I splurge.

 

[KellyNY]

From the reading I've done, and to be upfront I'm a little behind on some of this... Criminology was a few years ago!.. But my understanding is that online merchants are harder to track down because of the loops they can go through in spoofing computer ID's. Even with accepting payment, it can be easy to "hide" where the money eventually ends up. Tracing the criminals through cyberspace can take a lot of time and resources are limited. Also, most organizations dedicated to stopping counterfeiting are focused on the production and shipping of the goods which is where the big time problems are.

Edit: Okay, I did some quick hunting and also came up with this:

Many observers believe that, aside from New York City, government agencies do not take the problem of counterfeiting seriously enough. Distracted by terrorism and other more traditional crime, law enforcement has little time or energy left to address this issue. "One intellectual property lawyer told me that he was told by law enforcement that unless there was a dead body involved, 'don't even pick up the phone'" writes Phillips.

In its Canal Street raid, the Office of Special Enforcement followed an innovative "landlord-based" approach that targeted the estate of Vincent Terranova, the owner of three buildings that housed the illegal vendors. The estate had been named in an earlier lawsuit filed in the Federal District Court in Manhattan by luxury good brands such as Burberry and Marc Jacobs, according to the New York Times. Before the raid, undercover police officers and city agents made over 40 purchases of counterfeit goods. The city obtained a temporary restraining order against Terranova Properties which keeps the building closed until proof is provided that there is no more illegal activity.

"This is the largest operation we've done," said Office of Special Enforcement Director Shari Hyman.

However, most experts agree that ending, or at least limiting, the sale of counterfeit goods requires more than a law enforcement approach. The key is to challenge the widely held notion among consumers that buying counterfeit goods is a victimless crime and a harmless exercise in bargain hunting. "Until we deal with the demand side of the equation, it's a lost cause" said Joiner.

"We need consumers to help us instead of burying their heads in the sand," said Commissioner Ray Kelly in a press release. "No matter how 'victimless' a crime may appear, when you scratch the surface you are bound to find some unpleasant realities. That's true in the knock-off trade."​

* http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/crime/20080331/4/2476

Again, I only did a quick Google hunt. I'm not generally big on Google University for facts, but as an opinion it offers some insight.

That was interesting read, thanks. I agree, until people buy, they will sell. One thing to consider with online replicas(besides all the ilegal and moral side) is you have no idea who you are giving your info to. I read, they sell this info back to China, them couple months later when you used your card at handreds other places they attack your identity and your card. Pretty scary staff. This alone, should stop people from dealing with shadow companies.

 

[trustknoone]

I've read this entire thread and the same things could be said about any item. There is another thread going about how much you pay for jeans with alot of the same type of comments. It's all relative to what's important to you and makes you happy. Would a $2000 bag make me happy? No, but a $2000 bike sure did. What any one of us might consider obscene or reasonable all comes down to personal choice and taste. Just because we all choose to spend our money in different ways doesn't make any of us wrong right better or worse than each other, Just different. I like different.


As for the criminal element involved in knockoffs that's a whole different topic for me, as someone else said that is more about being socially responsible and accountable. Unfortunately a great many things are made on the backs and blood of others and we aren't always aware so we consume things that if we knew where it came from and the suffering it caused we wouldn't even consider.

 

[DVCBELLE]

Could someone please point me in the direction of research on the information that these bags fund terrorism? I find a lot of articles that say they might be linked but am having a hard time finding where it has been conclusively linked - in fact I found this quote:

Federal agents say the knock-off handbag industry is big money and it's money made easily. And while a concrete link from purses to terrorism hasn't been found, "There is that potential." The government has dubbed it an international smuggling scheme. One where dealers can be just about anywhere and sellers jump through hoops to make sure the fakes get sold.

From what I have researched it seems that this is one way that terrorists make money but they make it a million other ways as well. They are just like the mafia with business fronts to their dirty dealings. I read that "Terrorists like multiple income streams: drugs, credit card fraud and extortion." There are plenty of people who make and sell them just to make a profit. It also seems that they aren't the ones selling it at the piers in popular cruise ports but in fact are selling them to stores as legitimate products and some people have no idea they even bought them. In fact, they often sell real products as well to fund their illegal activities.

One article I found cited "consumer goods like fake Nike sneakers, Sony stereo equipment and Calvin Klein jeans" are also linked to terrorism. There was a 2003 hearing on this issue and there appears to be no concrete proof just speculation that they get 1-2% of their funding from counterfeit activities.

Almost every article I read somehow linked back to a 2003 Congressional hearing that warned of the POSSIBILITY of a link between terrorism and counterfeit goods (not just purses)

I would really like to see where the information on this has changed since that 2003 Congressional Hearing and am having a hard time finding it.

Being married to a lobbyist and having worked on Capitol Hill - I know that sometimes if you have an issue that people won't listen to (like you are losing money with counterfeit products) then you find any possible link that will make people sit up and take notice. Once you accomplish that - you have an easier time lobbying your issue and I wonder if it is possible this happened. They found a "possible" link, had the hearing and then it took on a life of its own. Every recent article I have found on the issue cites the Immigration and Customs Enforcement's (ICE) National Intellectual Property Rights Coordination Center as the source of information.

I'm open to information about this but all the research I find always seems to lead back to a group MORE concerned about the copyright issues. I'm not saying they are wrong - but I wonder if they play up the terrorism to help their cause.

I really would be interested in seeing current information on the topic. Thanks!

 

[Ember]

I've read this entire thread and the same things could be said about any item. There is another thread going about how much you pay for jeans with alot of the same type of comments. It's all relative to what's important to you and makes you happy. Would a $2000 bag make me happy? No, but a $2000 bike sure did. What any one of us might consider obscene or reasonable all comes down to personal choice and taste. Just because we all choose to spend our money in different ways doesn't make any of us wrong right better or worse than each other, Just different. I like different.


As for the criminal element involved in knockoffs that's a whole different topic for me, as someone else said that is more about being socially responsible and accountable. Unfortunately a great many things are made on the backs and blood of others and we aren't always aware so we consume things that if we knew where it came from and the suffering it caused we wouldn't even consider.

Nice post! I also like different. My DH also doesn't care about my pretty purse, but then, he spends a small fortune on text books that he insists are fascinating. I've flipped though them. They aren't. One of those boring books can be upwards of $200... And he can't even put his wallet in the darn things!

I also agree with your second paragraph. As a consumer we can only do so much when it comes to educating ourselves. I know I try, but that there are many things I buy that I don't know anything about how they were produced. It's a near impossible task and all I can do is my best. In the case of counterfeit goods there is a clear case to not buy them. Not knowing is one thing, knowing and choosing to do it anyway is another.

 

[Purseval]

Just because you don't like the statistics doesn't make them false.

No, just file them under "figures don't lie but liars can figure". In the money part it's easy to say you lost a $1000 sale because someone bought a $100 knockoff. Proving the person would have made the $1000 purchase had the $100 knockoff not existed is another matter entirely.

In the jobs part it wasn't very important when the jobs were lost in New England when they were moved to the Carolinas in order to save money. It wasn't very important when the jobs were lost in the Carolinas when they were moved overseas to save money. Now all of a sudden it's important because the jobs overseas aren't profitable enough for them?

You can make a case against counterfeiting without all the crocodile tears from the industries that had no problem at all destroying the manufacturing base here.

 

[KellyNY]

Could someone please point me in the direction of research on the information that these bags fund terrorism? I find a lot of articles that say they might be linked but am having a hard time finding where it has been conclusively linked - in fact I found this quote:



From what I have researched it seems that this is one way that terrorists make money but they make it a million other ways as well. They are just like the mafia with business fronts to their dirty dealings. I read that "Terrorists like multiple income streams: drugs, credit card fraud and extortion." There are plenty of people who make and sell them just to make a profit. It also seems that they aren't the ones selling it at the piers in popular cruise ports but in fact are selling them to stores as legitimate products and some people have no idea they even bought them. In fact, they often sell real products as well to fund their illegal activities.

One article I found cited "consumer goods like fake Nike sneakers, Sony stereo equipment and Calvin Klein jeans" are also linked to terrorism. There was a 2003 hearing on this issue and there appears to be no concrete proof just speculation that they get 1-2% of their funding from counterfeit activities.

Almost every article I read somehow linked back to a 2003 Congressional hearing that warned of the POSSIBILITY of a link between terrorism and counterfeit goods (not just purses)

I would really like to see where the information on this has changed since that 2003 Congressional Hearing and am having a hard time finding it.

Being married to a lobbyist and having worked on Capitol Hill - I know that sometimes if you have an issue that people won't listen to (like you are losing money with counterfeit products) then you find any possible link that will make people sit up and take notice. Once you accomplish that - you have an easier time lobbying your issue and I wonder if it is possible this happened. They found a "possible" link, had the hearing and then it took on a life of its own. Every recent article I have found on the issue cites the Immigration and Customs Enforcement's (ICE) National Intellectual Property Rights Coordination Center as the source of information.

I'm open to information about this but all the research I find always seems to lead back to a group MORE concerned about the copyright issues. I'm not saying they are wrong - but I wonder if they play up the terrorism to help their cause.

I really would be interested in seeing current information on the topic. Thanks!

All I can say is every illegal empire like this one can be connected somehow to terrorists, why not. Terrorists do not provide their income tax so we can only guess. Idea of fake bags is weird to me besides any legal issues, I jut do not spend my very real money on very fake goods.

 

[WeLoveLilo05]

If you want the real thing but can't afford it then do without. Or get an inspired bag so you can have the look without the price tag. If it's the name brand that's important, then get the real thing. I'm sorry, but knock offs are illegal and it's a crime to buy them.

What's wrong with buying counterfeit??

- Counterfeiting costs U.S. businesses $200 billion to $250 billion annually.
- Counterfeit merchandise is directly responsible for the loss of more than 750,000 American jobs.
- Since 1982, the global trade in illegitimate goods has increased from $5.5 billion to approximately $600 billion annually.
- Approximately 5%-7% of the world trade is in counterfeit goods.
- U.S. companies suffer $9 billion in trade losses due to international copyright piracy.

That's what's wrong. Wanting something you can't afford does not give you the right to resort to illegal measures to get it.



I don't laugh at women who carry fakes (not inspired bags, but the ones with logos), but I do disapprove of them. Not for wanting something they can't have, but for thinking a knock off is okay. It is not a victimless crime (see above). If having the real thing is that important to you, then save up and buy it. Wanting something and thinking it's okay to "steal" it (stealing the logo) is nothing more than entitlement. It's saying, "I want it but I don't think I should have to pay for it." Again, this is not the same as an "inspired" bag which is saying, "I like the style, but I'm not paying for the brand name on it!"

The companies charge so much because they can, just like any other company. With luxury goods they're trading on the fact that their items can't be owned by every one. There's an exclusivity to it. They back it up with a quality product, but that's really the core of the model. It's the same reason people stay in 5 star hotels. A $50 /night hotel will serve the same purpose, a place to sleep, but some people enjoy the experience of staying in a beautiful hotel and they're willing to pay for it. Or the same reason people buy anything more than a basic model car. In many cases it's the same engine, but you're paying for the features and the name they call it. If something holds no value to you, personally, then of course you see no reason to pay for it. I feel that way about a lot of things others pay for or care about. But I don't feel the need to judge them for what they like.

You may hate others that judge people by their handbag, but I hate being judged for owning mine.



Here's the thing, didn't buy it to impress anyone. I really do like it, and if no one knew it was a designer item, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. (In fact, the bag I normally carry is worth about $800. Most people would never know, the only logo is on the lining inside and it's not a brand most people would have heard of anyway.) I totally get the annoyance about people who feel they are superior because they own a designer handbag, but you get that complex with everything. From the car you drive, to the house to you own, to where you choose to vacation, to the food you buy at the grocery store. People who have a superiority complex will use any excuse to put others down. I find the fact that the above poster would laugh at me for something as simple as the bag I carry to be very pathetic. It may not be your thing, but why put others down?

I'm sorry, I meant "inspired" bags. Like I see bags that look like those LV bags @ Kohls and Claires, but they are $20 they just don't have that LV logo all around the bag.
And you could tell by my post that I do shop at legit stores (not from some dude on a street corner), as I got a nine west bag 50% off at Boscovs.

 

[quasar4legs]

I would never knowingly buy a knock-off as I consider it stealing.

 

[DVCBELLE]

All I can say is every illegal empire like this one can be connected somehow to terrorists, why not. Terrorists do not provide their income tax so we can only guess. Idea of fake bags is weird to me besides any legal issues, I jut do not spend my very real money on very fake goods.

I guess I think that the real issue is probably more over lost income to the designers and copyright stealing than the illegal activity funded by them.

I think we would probably all be appalled by the amount of illegal activity we unknowingly support with our dollars.

 

[Ember]

No, just file them under "figures don't lie but liars can figure". In the money part it's easy to say you lost a $1000 sale because someone bought a $100 knockoff. Proving the person would have made the $1000 purchase had the $100 knockoff not existed is another matter entirely.

In the jobs part it wasn't very important when the jobs were lost in New England when they were moved to the Carolinas in order to save money. It wasn't very important when the jobs were lost in the Carolinas when they were moved overseas to save money. Now all of a sudden it's important because the jobs overseas aren't profitable enough for them?

You can make a case against counterfeiting without all the crocodile tears from the industries that had no problem at all destroying the manufacturing base here.

I think what you're saying is that you don't believe the estimated loss of profits and jobs is a problem related to counterfeit issues. Is that right? Because industry, in an effort to maximize profit, cares about its bottom line rather than individual jobs and workers. And that because consumers may never have spent the money anyway on the designer goods, it can't be hurting them. I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to understand your argument.

If this is the case, my rebuttal would be from Ledbury Research, a team operating out of London.

"The research also claims to dispel the notion that consumers almost always know they are buying fakes. The report said as many as one in eight consumers bought a fake product in the past year but almost half of them - the equivalent of more than 3m people - believed they were buying the genuine item."

* http://www.ledburyresearch.com/about.asp

If you accept the above as true, that means almost half of people buying these counterfeit goods are doing so in good faith believing they are the real thing. How could that possibly not have a direct hit on business? Keep in mind we're now dealing with counterfeiting on a much larger scale than just a handbag.

Anyway, by the sounds of it there's more going on with your argument than anything to do with counterfeits. The ethics of big business is very different and much bigger kettle of fish and one I don't feel at all qualified to debate.

 

[julluvsdisney]

I had a fake one 7 years ago loved the look but it broke about a month later. I now love coach! Thats all I will carry! I get that some people think its a waste of money, but to each their own! I do however think that if you dont want to pay the money to have the real thing dont buy the knockoffs because they are illegal for a reason! They support terrorisim. they are made by people, possibly children, in sweat shops! Please dont buy the knock offs! Those are funding the same people who want to take the USA down!

 

[Abbie]

Ember, I just have to say that I started off this thread with a "don't care if it's a knock-off" feeling but after reading your well-versed reasons, I've changed my mind. And that doesn't happen often! Of course, purses are not my "thing" so whether I'd buy a real or fake is a moot point.....

I'm also intrigued by your comments about the judging going on. It is ironic that the same people who are appalled at the "poser" comment (as I was too) are just as quick to judge someone for choosing to spend their money on this particular item. I think you are right about this too. While I don't understand why purses are of great importance to some folks, I'm sure others would never understand why my annual beach vacation is non-negotiable (as an example). Everyone has different things that are important to them.....I'm big on "live and let live" myself! I don't know why you are feeling defensive about your purse purchases....if it makes you happy, who cares what someone else thinks? I know I don't!

 

[Ember]

I'm sorry, I meant "inspired" bags. Like I see bags that look like those LV bags @ Kohls and Claires, but they are $20 they just don't have that LV logo all around the bag.
And you could tell by my post that I do shop at legit stores (not from some dude on a street corner), as I got a nine west bag 50% off at Boscovs.

Hey, Claires has cute stuff! I didn't mean to misquote you or deliberately misunderstand your post. The post I quoted isn't clear that you meant inspired bag rather than knock off, but I should have looked back to previous posts before I quoted. You're right in that you do make a point of saying you shop legit in other posts. Apologies if I offended you, it was not my intention at all.

 

[WeLoveLilo05]

Hey, Claires has cute stuff! I didn't mean to misquote you or deliberately misunderstand your post. The post I quoted isn't clear that you meant inspired bag rather than knock off, but I should have looked back to previous posts before I quoted. You're right in that you do make a point of saying you shop legit in other posts. Apologies if I offended you, it was not my intention at all.

No problem, just wanted to let everyone know I wasn't hanging out in the city going from street corner to street corner looking for the best "knock off" lol.

 

[Ember]

Ember, I just have to say that I started off this thread with a "don't care if it's a knock-off" feeling but after reading your well-versed reasons, I've changed my mind. And that doesn't happen often! Of course, purses are not my "thing" so whether I'd buy a real or fake is a moot point.....

I'm also intrigued by your comments about the judging going on. It is ironic that the same people who are appalled at the "poser" comment (as I was too) are just as quick to judge someone for choosing to spend their money on this particular item. I think you are right about this too. While I don't understand why purses are of great importance to some folks, I'm sure others would never understand why my annual beach vacation is non-negotiable (as an example). Everyone has different things that are important to them.....I'm big on "live and let live" myself! I don't know why you are feeling defensive about your purse purchases....if it makes you happy, who cares what someone else thinks? I know I don't!

Wow, thank you. In truth it was a kind of a crummy day and it was nice to have something to focus on. I probably got a little more involved than I usually would...

 

[bucket o' butter]

I can spot a fake LV from a mile away. Even DH now can spot the fakes. If you are carrying a fake LV you must know that we all can tell it is fake and we are laughing at you for being a poser.

If I can get the "real" thing on sale, then I do. But many times I do buy the knock off brand just because I like the style and don't want to wait around for the real thing to go on sale. I could care less if people make fun of me. Paying over $100 for the real thing or $25 for the knock off??? I'll go for the knock off, thank you!

 

[tammymacb]

Maybe they just like the style?


Maybe they don't care if a snarky hag is judging them by the cost of their purse. To measure your worth by the things you carry and buy and also to judge those who do is fake and cheap.

Snarky hag...excellent argument you have there! Maybe you should consider law for your next career...I can see you going far.

If you read my post, I wasn't judging anyone. I simply asked why someone would buy a cheap knockoff ( not an inspired, but a back of the car, flea market knockoff ) when you could get a much better quality bag at Kohls.

Thanks for the commentary, though.

 

[dvcgirl]

I respect your way of thinking and providing for your future grandkids. However I wonder what is the point of having money and not enjoying them. OK, education for future generations is a good investment, agreed, but if your kids will also save every penny for future generations and so on, who will actually enjoy money, I mean outside of education. If you happy with your car, it is ok, you do not have to show off with Ferrari(sp), if your house is nice and enough for you, ok do not invest in a castle, but what you do not buy anything you just like and do not really need? Money represent what you can buy, otherwise they just paper. JMHO.

Crisi and I always end up on these threads....sometimes I think she's me living in Minnesota.

Like her, we're in that "millionaire next door" club. Seven figure net worth, but if I didn't tell you, you'd never know it. My SUV is 13 years old with 143K miles on it. The other is now 7 years old with just 32K miles on it....we'll have that forever. We have no debt at all, and save 60% of our net income.

When your net income is slightly over 200K a year, it's not hard to live comfortably on 80K a year when your only "bills" are property taxes, utilities, insurance and food. There's a lot left to have fun with....trust me, especially when you're don't spend money where most Americans do....on "big" things like car payments and mortgages. Our "big purchases"/vacation budget is $20,000 a year. So we have lots of fun.

I'd never in a million years allocate $1,200 of that budget to something that I wear or carry. It would have to be given to me as a gift. We each have a watch that cost about $1,000....but in each case it was a gift for our 40th BD. And yes, my DH gave me that watch...but 40 is a milestone kind of birthday so I was cool with that.

Money represents a lot more than what you can buy. Look at what has happened to our nation in the last 2 years. Money represents security.