Kids, driving, and what comes before. . .

[golfgal]

Really, my daughter didn't have much "official" practice with any of those things until she was driving. We live in a typical suburb and although she could walk to the local drugstore and one small shopping center, there wasn't anything else in walking distance. Oh, she could walk to the pool in the summer.

I suppose her only real introduction to some of those issues was being allowed as a preteen to go to the local shopping center (not out local mall) and go from store to store, over to the movie theater, to another part of the shopping center for a dinner with friends, etc. Learning to navigate around the shopping center, deal with store clerks, security guards, etc. gave her some of those skills.

Of course being in school also provides some of that same training. Learning to deal with a variety of teachers and administrators, finding your way from class to class, etc. was good practice.

But, really, she learned all of those things while she was in the car, so I suppose I don't agree with your idea that students must have all of those things down pat before they get behind the wheel of a car.

My daughter has a terrible sense of direction so I gave her a GPS the day she got her license. Still, she asked to go to Panera for dinner the next night and instead of going to the one 8 blocks from our house, she followed the GPS directions for another one that was about 8 miles away near the interstate highway. I got a teary phone call - but she found her way back home eventually and my soup was still warm! We tease her about it now but it was trauamatic at the time.

I don't think anything can really prepare you for getting pulled by a police officer, so we focus on prevention. Don't speed, don't speed, don't speed is the drill at our house.

As far as being late for something, I don't think there is a good way to practice that when you are still being driven by your parents and not independently. Again, I think of that as a learn on the job skill. Along with driving comes the responsibility of getting up early enough to get where you are supposed to be without speeding. The rule at our house is get up in time to leave by quarter to 8 or you don't drive yourself that day.

I guess the point I'm trying to make with all this rambling is that you can't be sure kids will have these skills down pat before you put them behind the wheel, and for me that's not a reason to keep them from driving.

It's not so much having them down pat but having SOME experience with them. It is not possible to have them down pat until you have several years of driving experience but if you have NEVER been allowed out of your yard alone and all of the sudden you have the responsibility for driving a car with NO experience, that is the issue. If you can't walk across the street or walk on a busy street how in the heck are you supposed to know how to drive on one?

edit: Take the skill of learning the timing of when it is ok to enter a street. If you have NEVER had to do this walking-mom always makes that decision for you--imagine trying to learn it driving. Our kids still use "walking" timing, meaning they could pull out a lot sooner then they do, but that comes with experience. I couldn't imagine not having that skill before you drive.

 

[FINFAN]

we are in Il and a student driver has to have driven for 50 hours with a parent/adult and have had their permit for 9 months prior to being able to take the test for their license...and our DMV is strict, people do fail. Most of our HS offer drvers Ed and it is required to graduate. The student does not have to actually get their license but they do have to take the class. I think you have to step back and see how the kid is. Due to getting a slot in a class and the 9 month wait both my kids get their permits at 15. My DD got her actual licewnse at 16 1/2 , DS went 4 days after he turned 16. DD slowly increased how often/distance she would go, DS was driving to school 7 miles away 1 week after getting his. DS also racked up more than 50 hours however of practice. He is more of a natural at driving than DD. He is one of those people who has a map in his head, does know the road names etc so that distraction is not too bad for him. DD however, not so much so she drives more for necessity than anything. The kids share a '96 minivan so there is metal around them and it is not a "souped up" car. They had a compact Chevy cobalt at their drivers ed class which did help them to learn as a small car was less intimidating and for my kids, easier to maneuver when first learning. They also learned that you cannot see squat around the SUV etc when in a tiny car. DD horse back rides and we both think that her experience with that helped her to predict and be aware of traffic, as you do not know what another riders horse is going to do, and you have to be very aware. Another state rule we have is only 1 co-rider ( unless family member) in the car until 18...to lessen distraction. I am torn about this rule as to me it forces more cars on the road(which is exactly WHY the state is doing it, more cars = more $ on plate sticjers at $99 a car etc) however, at least kids are not cramming thier cars phone booth style.
We started in the chuch parking lot for the kids to get the feel and hang of the car, then onto residential areas to get the idea of distance from curb, staying in their lane etc. There were some kids in drivers class who did not have any behind the wheel experince until they got into a car in the drivers class...they were scared to death thinknig of getting onto the city streets etc having never driven before, and they usually have another student in the car as well. DS was so grateful to us that we had taken him ourselves after he got his permit, he had almost 25 hours with us before getting into a car with the instructor.
Maturity level is the deciding factor to us for going to the DMV. Also grades have to be there for the good student insurance discount and they kids had to have 6 months ins saved up BEFORE going to the DMV. Each kid also had to give us a list of who they would NOT get into a car with of thier friends, so we could see how they judged other new drivers as well. I think everyone should learn how to drive, whether or not they actually do after that is a personal choice but I think the basics should be in place.

 

[DVCLiz]

It's not so much having them down pat but having SOME experience with them. It is not possible to have them down pat until you have several years of driving experience but if you have NEVER been allowed out of your yard alone and all of the sudden you have the responsibility for driving a car with NO experience, that is the issue. If you can't walk across the street or walk on a busy street how in the heck are you supposed to know how to drive on one?

edit: Take the skill of learning the timing of when it is ok to enter a street. If you have NEVER had to do this walking-mom always makes that decision for you--imagine trying to learn it driving. Our kids still use "walking" timing, meaning they could pull out a lot sooner then they do, but that comes with experience. I couldn't imagine not having that skill before you drive.

I think that's a skill kids learn while driving, and I don't see much correlation between anything else they do before driving and the skill it takes to learn how to do it in a car.

My opinion may have something to do with the fact that in NC our kids can get a permit at age 15, after they have had 6 hours of road experience and 30 hours of classroom experience with a certified driver's ed instructor. They are required to drive for a year with an adult in the front seat beside them. So for my kids, it was a full year of practice behind the wheel with me in the passenger seat, and that's how they acquired those driving skills. Beginning in a parking lot or on the streets of our neighborhood, progressing out to local non-busy streets, then gradually going farther afield.

And always practicing - sitting at a stop sign waiting for traffic to clear, going too soon or too late, learning to assess when the best time to try and make a left turn, etc. All practice that was necessary and none of which could be learned beforehand by walking, in my opinion. Practice, practice, practice behind the wheel. Going up to a busy intersection on Sunday morning and driving through it a dozen times to see the time of the lights. Choosing the scary left turn into school and sitting there telling my daughter, "Wait - wait - OK, go now !" Just a lot of practice until she had learned those skills.

If the OP is talking about putting kids behind the wheel for the first time without an adult, I can see her concern. But kids should have had the benefit of a LOT of behind the wheel time with a parent in the passenger seat in order to become accomplished drivers, in my opinion. And by a lot I mean several months to a year.

 

[golfgal]

I think that's a skill kids learn while driving, and I don't see much correlation between anything else they do before driving and the skill it takes to learn how to do it in a car.

My opinion may have something to do with the fact that in NC our kids can get a permit at age 15, after they have had 6 hours of road experience and 30 hours of classroom experience with a certified driver's ed instructor. They are required to drive for a year with an adult in the front seat beside them. So for my kids, it was a full year of practice behind the wheel with me in the passenger seat, and that's how they acquired those driving skills. Beginning in a parking lot or on the streets of our neighborhood, progressing out to local non-busy streets, then gradually going farther afield.

And always practicing - sitting at a stop sign waiting for traffic to clear, going too soon or too late, learning to assess when the best time to try and make a left turn, etc. All practice that was necessary and none of which could be learned beforehand by walking, in my opinion. Practice, practice, practice behind the wheel. Going up to a busy intersection on Sunday morning and driving through it a dozen times to see the time of the lights. Choosing the scary left turn into school and sitting there telling my daughter, "Wait - wait - OK, go now !" Just a lot of practice until she had learned those skills.

If the OP is talking about putting kids behind the wheel for the first time without an adult, I can see her concern. But kids should have had the benefit of a LOT of behind the wheel time with a parent in the passenger seat in order to become accomplished drivers, in my opinion. And by a lot I mean several months to a year.

MN pretty much has the same licensing practice-30 hours of classroom, 6 hours of behind the wheel with an instructor and 6 months with a permit before getting a license. I just can't imagine putting a child behind the wheel even with an adult in the car that has never crossed the street by themselves. I think there is a direct correlation between having those skills and transferring them to driving. It is the same principal, just in a car vs walking. You need the same skill set to do both.

 

[klj27]

I have told my 6th grader that he is allowed to get his drivers license once he is an Eagle Scout. I figure it that doesn't teach him responsibility not much else will.

 

[Mary•Poppins]

Our oldest just passed his driver's test 2 months ago. I kept saying ... he is not ready ... and my husband disagreed with me. He went to take his test and he passed.

He is a great kid and very responsible. But is scares the living daylights out of me. We constantly tell him that he now can kill himself and someone else if he is not responsible.

The day after he got his license, we had a contract for him to sign and agree to. It covered everything we could think of (there are some great ones online!). We also make him 25.00 a month for his insurance (we plan on collecting this money and giving it to him when he graduates college as a down payment on a car ... but we aren't telling him that.) We want him to know about the financial responsibility of driving. And lastly, for the first month he was not allowed to drive with ANYONE in his car. For the next 6 months he can only have 1 person in the car with him. Of course ALL of his friends are allowed to drive multiple kids around .... *sigh*

I do think that it is important to learn to drive while he is still under our roof.

 

[golfgal]

Our oldest just passed his driver's test 2 months ago. I kept saying ... he is not ready ... and my husband disagreed with me. He went to take his test and he passed.

He is a great kid and very responsible. But is scares the living daylights out of me. We constantly tell him that he now can kill himself and someone else if he is not responsible.

The day after he got his license, we had a contract for him to sign and agree to. It covered everything we could think of (there are some great ones online!). We also make him 25.00 a month for his insurance (we plan on collecting this money and giving it to him when he graduates college as a down payment on a car ... but we aren't telling him that.) We want him to know about the financial responsibility of driving. And lastly, for the first month he was not allowed to drive with ANYONE in his car. For the next 6 months he can only have 1 person in the car with him. Of course ALL of his friends are allowed to drive multiple kids around .... *sigh*

I do think that it is important to learn to drive while he is still under our roof.

Our state law says that kids can only have one non-related passenger in the car for the first 6 months and then only up to 3 for the next 6 months. I think that is a GREAT rule. We never had our kids sign a contract but they know that if they mess up, they are done driving, that pretty much covers it all.

 

[Northstar]

Relating to the thread where some people were saying they'd walk their kids to the bus stop until they were old enough to drive, then the kids would drive...

It is very sad, and I disagree with this mentality, but these people are afraid of PEOPLE not accidents or possible problems their child might have to deal with.
They're worried about someone abducting their child or shooting their child. A car protects you from meeting the strangers who are lurking out there waiting to attack you.

That's why it makes sense to them. Let's assume some of these parents are letting their kids develop responsibility and problem-solving capabilities in other arenas.

 

[DVCLiz]

MN pretty much has the same licensing practice-30 hours of classroom, 6 hours of behind the wheel with an instructor and 6 months with a permit before getting a license. I just can't imagine putting a child behind the wheel even with an adult in the car that has never crossed the street by themselves. I think there is a direct correlation between having those skills and transferring them to driving. It is the same principal, just in a car vs walking. You need the same skill set to do both.

Well, OK, it's fine to disagree. I don't see that kids who haven't had any walking around town practice still can't learn to be great drivers, but if you do that's OK with me.

A kid who has literally never learned to cross a street by him or herself at age 16 has far bigger problems than learning to drive, in my opinion.

 

[Momvic5]

Honestly, I am not too worried about those issues. I think most kids naturally find themselves ready to take on those skills . Even if they haven't had experience with doing a task on their own such as crossing streets or navigating the streets, I do not think they will be at a total loss. If the kid is 16yrs old, chances are they have had countless examples on how to do those things. I remember my kids could direct us home from routine stops around our community when they were 3-4yrs old merely because they had viewed the area from the back seat countless times. Most kids learn street and traffic rules by watching mom and dad and tagging along...my younger son used to love to tell me about his dad's yellow light tactics. My point is, even if kids haven't had the experiences on their own, chances are they have learned something through example.....they are pretty smart creatures! Now impulse behavior and the inability to control themselves is what I worry about when it comes time for driving.

 

[dyna]

Yep I'm 1 of the bad mommys who never allowed my DD's to walk anywhere an always drove them to scholl till they drove themselves. Yet from the time they was walking an I took them to potty in mall or resturant on the way back I told them to find daddy. By age 3 I was asking them if cars was coming before crossing street. For yrs I was with them but they was usually deciding when to cross street ect.

When theystarted drivers ed I'd take them to the school parking lot on Sundays it was the largest empty lot in the county. I threw empty boxes out in front of them that they had to stop to keep from hitting. I set up boxes for them to drive an weave between. They had to back up between the parking space lines the length of the parking lot close to a half mile. Park do all sorts of stuff they did not do in drivers ed.

They could not get drivers license till at least 17. Then they started driving to school during summer for band practice an once in awhile to grocery store. Walmart came later it was a little further away. Then fast food resturants in the area. Once they got license they got to drive uptown to the bigger town 30 miles away on interstate ONLY on Sunday mornings before church got out an traffic got heavy. But they never drove up town on their own till they was out of high school.

 

[taximomfor4]

A SENIOR at 16
.

my oldest dd just graduated high school in May, at the age of 16. She just started college, and has gotten her learners permit for driving. However, I don't foresee letting her drive any time soon. She walks EVERYWHERE though (even in our busy, narrow, unlined streets without sidewalks), and has for years already.

While she is book-smart, and exercises wonderful judgment in many ways, I don't yet trust her to be driving.

So all those years of letting her walk all around, and ride her bike all around, hasn't yet prepared her to drive.

 

[Sorsha]

OK, I haven't yet read all the responses, but I will give you a slightly different perspective.

In Montana, people HAVE to drive. Unless you live RIGHT downtown, NOTHING is within walking distance, and we have NO public transportation to speak of. Heck, I live in the 6th (I think...) largest city in MT, and we don't have a taxi company. Not one. We have a bus service, but it only has a few scheduled stops, and it has only had those for about a year. Until then, it existed solely to serve the disabled. My husband and I live about 20 minutes from our jobs, and at least 10 minutes from Wal-Mart, grocery stores, libraries, etc by car. In the summer you can ride a bike, but for about 9 months out of the year, that's just not gonna work... too cold, too much snow. So, people have to learn to drive.

Montana has a graduated licensing system. At age 15 1/2, a teen may take driver's ed. At the end of driver's ed, they are issued a learner's permit, which they hold for 6 months. During that time, they may drive only with another licensed driver in the car. They must accumulate ~50 hours of "practice" driving in that 6 months. At the end of that 6 months, they may take their driver's test, and move to the first step in their "real" license. They may now drive alone, with another licensed adult, or with only 1 other teen, and NO night driving (unless it is required for work, school events, etc). This step lasts for another 6 months. After that, for the next 6 months, they may drive with the adult, or with a maximum of 3 other teens (they call this the "double-date" period), with no night restrictions except for local curfew laws. Finally, after that 6 months is up, the teen receives a full license, without restrictions.

If the teen chooses not to take driver's ed, he or she must wait until they are 16, instead of 15 1/2 to begin the process. If the teen does not wish to go through the graduated periods at all, they must wait till they turn 18. At 18, they can get an unrestricted license right off the bat.

DD16 is in the learner's permit phase right now. She took Driver's Ed last spring, and will fulfill her 6 months of practice time at the end of October. This 6 months of practice has been very good for her... she has matured a lot, learned a lot, and become much more skilled at many things...i.e. parking.

 

[Sorsha]

Reading some of the replies now, and and see the direction the discussion is going in...

DD16's high school is in an area of town where many things - Wal-mart, Subway, Target, Borders, Costco, the ever-popular frozen yogurt hangout, etc - are all within walking distance. Across a very busy road and into a shopping area, but still walkable.

Usually their school has closed campus, but several times a year they will open up the campus - during finals week, for instance. Also when DD is there after school or on weekends for marching band or pep band.

It has always been understood that it is Ok for her to go with friends over into the shopping center on her breaks. I trust her to stay safe and make wise decisions. She has some older friends in band with cars and "ungraduated" licenses; sometimes they all drive (dead of winter, etc) but sometimes they just walk. It is her responsibility to stay safe and get her butt back to school on time.

I have always given my kids plenty of freedom and appropriate responsibilities. Do I think this will make them better drivers?? Not sure, DD16 STILL can't find her way to Wal-Mart without a map and a navigator. But she does know to be careful and keep an eye on her watch and that the intersection across from the high school can be nasty at 3 PM.

 

[Tiggeroo]

To give you a sense of where I'm coming from. I live in a super walkable place. From my house you can easily walk to about 20 restaurants, 2 "regular" grocery stores plus Trader Joe's and Whole Foods, several libraries, public schools of all levels, a variety of private schools, the park, the movies, the hardware store etc . . . You can also hop on the subway and be downtown in 20 minutes and walk to even more.

So for me, and my friends who are parents, driving is seen as a privilege for teens, as in "maybe, if you've proven yourself to be responsible, and are keeping your grades up, and pay your own insurance, I'll consider letting you take drivers ed. If you're really good, I might even let you borrow the car once in a while." I know lots of high school kids who choose not to bother learning to drive in high school (or whose parents don't let them), and don't know any with their own cars. I also don't think I know any undergraduates with cars, and I know many professional adults who don't have them either.

Of course I know that most of the country isn't like where I live, and that many people consider a car for their teenager indispensible.

What I wonder is, if you're planning on letting your kid drive at 16, what do people do to get their kid ready. I was on another thread and people were saying that they plan on walking their kids to the school bus stop until they're 16, at which point they'll drive to school. I can't really wrap my mind around a kid who isn't ready to navigate the streets on foot one day and is ready to do so in a vehicle, that has the potential to kill people, the next. I'm a pretty "free range" parent in a lot of ways, partially because my walkable neighborhood is full of walkers so there's lots of eyes to add to the safety, and while I sometimes worry about my kid when he's out and about, I'm always thinking "if he doesn't have these experiences now, how is he going to be ready for the responsibilities of adulthood?"

Anyway, I'm rambling. My question is, if you let your 16 year old drive, or plan on doing so, what comes first -- how do they show you that they're responsible? How do you get them ready? Are there experiences you'd want them to have first? I'm not thinking of the obvious -- like parrallel parking or driver's ed, but the ones that build the cognitive skills like how to solve problems on your own without panicking.

I want to know where you live because I would love to live in a neighborhood like that. We live in a fairly walkable place where they could easily at least walk to a job and many of their friend's homes. But some school events required driving. We postponed driving for a bit but I wanted my kids to be excellent drivers before they went off to college.

 

[SandrA9810]

That helicoptered teen is going to be the 20yr old driving cross states to go to a university for the first time... They will have an over heated engine, be out of reception on the cell, and be huddled in the car bawling their eyes out.

Driving is street smart, not book smart. And so many people i know, that are book smart, lack any sort of street smarts. I think taking a basic car maintance class should be in order with driver's ed. Sure it's nice to have AAA come to the rescue when it's freezing, but that's not going to be the case all the time. And what about the next couple of days while the car is in the shop?? You'll need to figure out how to get around.

I'm not afraid of walking, taking the bus, or having the essentials in the back end of the car. Like a gas container (empty), mechanics tool set, oil, coolant, tranny fluid. And the creativity of how to come up with a solution to get the car to the next stop.


This is the case with my BF now. He's always relied upon others to get him around. The bus system is horrible, and he pitches a fit if he has to walk too far, not to mention everything is farther than just a walk away. The quickstop is the only thing close. I don't blame him for not wanting to learn cause his mother's driving will terrorize you for life. But he has weird concepts about how the car works. I would give him at least year with a permit, before he would be comfortable driving on his own. And he doesn't have much street smarts either. He'd be the one huddled in the car crying cause he doesn't know what to do.
And he's not the only guy i know of to not be street/car smart. So it goes for both genders.