Keeping Ukraine in our thoughts and prayers here

[JimMIA]

One person who seems to have really stepped up for Ukraine is Elon Musk: https://thehill.com/policy/internat...e-receiving-more-spacex-internet-stations-for

 

[ronandannette]

That has not been the experience of any of my neighbors, all but one of whom still have relatives in Cuba. It's certainly NOT an open society, but they call them at will and have very frequent contact.

ETA: That said, I realize the situation could be very different for people who LIVE in Cuba, as opposed to visitors or relatives who live here in the US.

The locals I met of course all have cell phones and my tour guide to Havana confirmed (to her knowledge) she is able to call out to anywhere in the world and receive calls from anywhere. They have FB and WhatsApp and all use the wifi at the resorts where they work, same as the guests; which wasn't censored in any way that I could tell.

 

[JimMIA]

In an odd offshoot from the Ukraine crisis, US officials are apparently rushing to Venezuela to talk to Venezuelan officials. Apparently there is some sense that Venezuela is seeking to distance themselves from Russia (their primary financial support). President Maduro said they want to sell their oil to whoever will take it.

Good luck with that, because they nationalized all the American companies and their infrastructure is 20+ years out of date, and supposedly non-functional -- but whatever. https://thehill.com/policy/internat...h-government-of-russian-ally-venezuela-report

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I realize the US is not Russia

I don't think you do.

I understood the questions about did the soldiers know or not know and you and others have a point there just as others have a point that they may not (especially in the beginning) not know exactly what they are doing. However I do think it's fair to acknowledge there's a level of purposeful specific messaging given to the public (which includes military) such that their knowledge of what really happens is quite different than what they were fed. That cannot be applied to every Russian just as you cannot apply "they know" to every Russian. Having access to internet does not mean you have our access to internet. Or tv for that matter.

And what a PP mentioned about being afraid of speaking out is a huge contrast to what we have here. People flock to our country for the very reason of their own silencing any flutter of differing opinions. You opened the can of worms by saying you believe the vast majority of Russians support the war. Everything I've been reading refutes that. From the Russian tv coverage of Ukraine (that played into how people perceived the country), from the protestors who didn't want war (and were under a direct threat of arrest to not protest) to the way Putin frames and articulates why he's started this war and people for so long have been under his relentless viewpoints, and so many more things. When you say the majority support the war you present it like they are like-minded to Putin, can't say I've gotten that same information, not at all. I urge you to look deeper into this (there's various articles you can read) it's hard for us to sit back and think how could you not know but we should know that not every country is like ours that's the darn truth.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Jim you really shouldn't laugh at something so dang serious. It's a war in Ukraine for pete's sake. Have some respect

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

We have the same saying, but I want to bring some nuance to the word Russia: Putin and his team have invaded Ukraine. Not the average person on the street picking up a gun and running across the border.

To say that all Russians, except the ones protesting, are guilty is one step too far for me. War isn't that black and white to me. And yes, as a Dutch person my view on war is entirely different from Americans.

Today in the Dutch news, that train of thought is exactly what Putin is hoping for. To show the Russians: See, i was right, the rest of the world hates Russians, therefore we need to defend ourselves.
The article told about a 6 year old who got beaten up on the playground for being Russian, spite being born here in the Netherlands. More and more stories come out from Russians living abroad, receiving threats and hate mail for being Russian. Those stories do get to the average Russian and with that, Putin justifies his actions to the Russian people.

Honestly I appreciate your viewpoint and have been following it throughout this thread. You're closer to this than we are and have an experience that is different than ours due to your location. When I've been reading your comments I've been learning things.

I was reading an article from a few days ago and the Russian authorities were prohibited from calling it a war or an invasion. It was instead a special operation in Ukraine.

This was also said in that article "communications-oversight authority demanded that ten media outlets, including TV Rain and Novaya Gazeta, which is edited by the Nobel Peace Prize recipient Dmitry Muratov, remove reports that described the war as a war, or else providers would block their Web sites and impose fines. Some coverage appears to have been blocked, and several outlets have started to tread more carefully. TV Rain, for example, changed its live-broadcast chyron from “War in Ukraine” to “What’s Happening in Ukraine.” On Tuesday, the authorities ordered Internet providers to block access to the Web sites of TV Rain and the independent radio station Echo of Moscow—and took Echo off the air."

Our level of censorship here in the U.S. is drastically different than that.

Further that article said "Every day of Russia’s war against Ukraine is made possible because there are no real mass antiwar protests in cities of Russia. This is not so much because people are afraid of repercussions… but mostly because the vast majority of the population doesn’t know that the Russian military has been waging full-scale war for the last four days"

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Again I will ask that there not be bickering on this thread. Opinions are fine. The he said/she said part is where it goes off track. Let’s just assume we are all watching and reading different things and talking to different people, have a different understanding of history, etc. I want to hear all viewpoints. I just don’t want arguing or invitations to bicker. Please.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

One person who seems to have really stepped up for Ukraine is Elon Musk: https://thehill.com/policy/internat...e-receiving-more-spacex-internet-stations-for

Another couple stepping up are Ashton Kushner and Mila Kunis, who is from Ukraine. They pledged to match up to $3 Million to aid displaced Ukranians:

https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture...tch-3-million-aid-ukrainian-refugee-rcna18742

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Many are taking their pets with them. I guess restrictions were relaxed on trains and in neighboring countries.

Did anyone see the story today of the father and son who went back to get their dogs after seeing the mother and sister off safely? It was excruciating. They ran into a tank who fired on them. Dad and two of the dogs (I saw one German Shepherd in the video) were killed as the son repeatedly begs the father “not to die”. So incredibly sad!

Just by what you described I know I can't watch or read that story. It's so hard to even imagine being fired upon like that

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I fear Ukraine will fall to the Russians despite their hard fought resistance. Heartbreaking all around. I am sure there are many Ukrainians who never thought it would go this far.

I've been having that same inner inkling feeling too. I don't think they can do it alone at least.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I think I opened up the last part of that dialogue sharing that awful story about the tank firing on the two men and the dogs. I was thinking a lot about it. My father’s service in the military involved driving a tank in WWII in the US campaign in North Africa. After I posted I delved into several history sites to see exactly what that was all about, and I learned some things. I wish I could talk to him about it now, but I can’t because he’s gone. I do know it messed him up. He entered the service as a happy 19 year old, but came back a different person. War is never a good thing for humanity. I mean, it is necessary some times, I suppose. But the damage it does to people is widespread and ongoing.

Unfortunately we lost my father’s writings in a fire, but I do remember reading his thoughts about traveling to Africa on a Navy ship and how physically sick and emotionally terrified they all were. There was fighting over hammocks and the smell of vomit wafting through the air. If that wasn’t bad enough, I cannot even imagine what it feels like being inside the tank. To a degree, I wonder if there is a thought of “kill or be killed”. It’s also a group mentality as opposed to individual, with orders coming down that you must follow. The Sherman tanks they were in were known as ‘Zippos’ (after the type of lighters) because if hit, they lit up. I imagine that every moment inside of one was horrendous.

I have seen on several sites that people of Ukraine were told by their leaders to stay off the streets or they would be considered “the enemy”. I was really hoping that it wasn’t friendly fire, and I hope we don’t come to read that in the future, as we have seen with some of the other pictures (that they were old, or misrepresented, etc.).

Just some thoughts I’ve been having. This whole thing is excruciating.

 

[Sinder]

Russians are not isolated from the rest of the world. There is an estimated 3 million Russian immigrants living in the US, I do not know the numbers of any other country but Ukraine has the mist Russian immigrants. Do we believe these immigrants aren’t communicating with their families still living in Russia about what is going on? It is possible to get info from other places than the internet.
So when someone says the vast majority of Russians don’t know what us going on, how do they really know? Are the going door to door or are they making assumptions based on the past when instant worldwide communication wasn’t possible?
I don’t know the answer but does anyone really know just how many Russians know ir not know what us going on? I doubt it. Can’t blame the citizens for what the soldiers are doing regardless of what they know because unfortunately in that country they do not have the power to change things.

 

[JLTraveling]

Russians are not isolated from the rest of the world. There is an estimated 3 million Russian immigrants living in the US, I do not know the numbers of any other country but Ukraine has the mist Russian immigrants. Do we believe these immigrants aren’t communicating with their families still living in Russia about what is going on? It is possible to get info from other places than the internet.
So when someone says the vast majority of Russians don’t know what us going on, how do they really know? Are the going door to door or are they making assumptions based on the past when instant worldwide communication wasn’t possible?
I don’t know the answer but does anyone really know just how many Russians know ir not know what us going on? I doubt it. Can’t blame the citizens for what the soldiers are doing regardless of what they know because unfortunately in that country they do not have the power to change things.

Immigrants are trying to communicate with their families in Russia. And in many cases they simply aren't believed. I've seen this over and over in interviews on various channels. Including a crying woman who couldn't have been more than 22 or 23. Russian living in Ukraine. She called her mom to say that her apartment building was being shelled and she was scared. And her mom flatly told her she was lying, that Putin would never authorize anything like that. It must be the Nazi Ukrainians shelling the building. If people can't even get their own parents to believe what's happening directly TO them, how is the wider Russian population supposed to learn and believe the truth?

 

[Toolulu22]

We have the same saying, but I want to bring some nuance to the word Russia: Putin and his team have invaded Ukraine. Not the average person on the street picking up a gun and running across the border.

To say that all Russians, except the ones protesting, are guilty is one step too far for me. War isn't that black and white to me. And yes, as a Dutch person my view on war is entirely different from Americans.

Not all Americans think similarly. Many times we are lumped together, but the past few years should highlight that there are vast differences in our ideologies.

I truly hope to see help step in, the monetary contributions are fantastic, but Ukraine needs real support. The sanctions seem to be working somewhat, but only fueling Putin on.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

Another couple stepping up are Ashton Kushner and Mila Kunis, who is from Ukraine. They pledged to match up to $3 Million to aid displaced Ukranians:

https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture...tch-3-million-aid-ukrainian-refugee-rcna18742

Ryan Reynolds & Blake Lively have also said they’ll match up to $1 million.

 

[Sinder]

Immigrants are trying to communicate with their families in Russia. And in many cases they simply aren't believed. I've seen this over and over in interviews on various channels. Including a crying woman who couldn't have been more than 22 or 23. Russian living in Ukraine. She called her mom to say that her apartment building was being shelled and she was scared. And her mom flatly told her she was lying, that Putin would never authorize anything like that. It must be the Nazi Ukrainians shelling the building. If people can't even get their own parents to believe what's happening directly TO them, how is the wider Russian population supposed to learn and believe the truth?

And who knows for every Russian family member who doesn’t believe there are those that do.
Like I said nobody knows unless people are physically asking Russians, anecdotal stories mean nothing.
My dh works with a Russian man who still has family there, he’s been in communication, they know according to what he told my dh. But I’m not going to say that every one knows based on the few stories I hear.
Besides there will always be people willfully ignorant of what their government does, even here. My point was that people aren’t being isolated and shut out from the information about what is going on. Whether they choose to believe or not is a different matter.

 

[JimMIA]

Jim you really shouldn't laugh at something so dang serious. It's a war in Ukraine for pete's sake. Have some respect

I was laughing at you, not war.

I'm an Army Brat whose father was almost killed in Korea and I grew up on Army bases during the peak of the Cold War. Like probably everyone here, I understand what war is.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Ryan Reynolds & Blake Lively have also said they’ll match up to $1 million.

These stories are nice to hear about the people who can do this. I know we tend to think some of these actions are virtue signaling but there are many cases it's not. This is one I whole-heartedly think the celebrities are really trying to help out in what ways they can. I was shocked when I heard about Sean Penn being there. Sometimes you forget these high profile people are still people

 

[JimMIA]

Here's the BBC update for today. The highlights are the second failure of the attempt to evacuate Mariupol, a wedding in the midst of war, and information on 3,500 Russians being arrested for protesting against the war in Moscow, St. Petersburg, and other cities.

According to a human rights website, more than 10,000 Russian citizens have been arrested for protesting the war, so apparently somebody in Russia knows what's really going on! https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60635927