Just watched "Song of the South"......

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First of all, allow me to make one thing clear. I worship nobody. Just because Mr Disney is Mr Disney does not mean he is infallible! He was not a God, he was a person. He did great things, but he was still human.

Second, I do believe that Eliza has repeatedly explained the shortcomings of the film and the reasons why it is offensive. I see absolutely no reason to be redundant.

Third, good luck in figuring out anything about Mr Disney's intellectual flaws. Last I knew he was dead. One thing is crystal clear. He was a privileged, white, male who did not see the movie from the perspective of an African American. So yes, that does make him uneducated on that particular subject.

What if Disney created a movie from, say the 1990s, that implied that gay and lesbian people in the military had it great? Don't you think it would show a strong lack of understanding if he created a movie showing gays and lesbians happily and openly serving, singing and having a high old time when in fact they were being discriminated against, harassed and kicked out? I guess the obvious question to ask would be, what is the point of such a movie? The same is true of SOTS. There was no need to take a subject that was painful and negative and turn it into a sing song happily ever after movie. It could have simply not been made, just like they are obviously not going to make a movie depicting gays in the military as singing and having a fantastic time. What would have been wrong with just leaving the subject alone and not making a Disney film of it at all?

Actually no one as answered the question as to what exactly it is that is offensive.

A bit has been said about Uncle Remus and the "happy darky" theory and a bit has been said about the term "tar baby" but whether either of those things are exactly what is offensive or if there are other things in the movie that are offensive.

You know, a lot of movies and cartoons and shows are made that make someone look a bit different than they really are. Men or women are shown to be idiots (depending on the show) while the other sex is portrayed much smarter, Native Americans as savages, Russians as all mean and evil, Middle Easterners as all American haters and the list goes on and on. That doesn't mean that everyone thinks that its true.

Am I supposed to get all up in arms everytime a woman is made to look dumb? Or maybe ds's Native American friend should go a picket Disney over some movies? Or maybe parents should be boycotting Disney for the shows that make parents look bad?

What the real African Americans went through during the setting of SOTS is abhorrable. And most people know that. They know Uncle Remus is a CHARACTER in a movie and in no way believe that its a true representation of his race at that time in history.
 
She is referring to the slur against gays. The one that begins with F and ends in T. It not only used to be used to refer to a "bundle of sticks," it also is an alternative name for "bassoon." My daughter is gay and plays the bassoon and jokingly refer to it as a f-----t all the time. She's a strange child. :rotfl2: I do believe the term used to be used for knitting or something like that. I'm not sure, but I thought I heard that somewhere. I agree with you, it is sad how perfectly good words are basically stolen by haters.

OOOOHHHH! :lmao: Did not know that!

Wow.
 
Absolutely excellent point and one that wonderfully calls out the inconsistency of PC-mantra.

The philosophy behind that mantra leads some to want to burn all copies of SOTS based on the perception that is necessary if even just one person is offended by it, adding the notion that Disney just can't afford the risk of offending them.

But then there is silence when you point out that logic also mandates attacking scores of other presumably blatant stereotypes present in other currently available Disney films.

Well, at least for awhile. I suspect there will eventually be retorts stating "well, yeah, Disney should remove those offensive native American references, too." I guess we can then bring up the ugly stereotypes of British colonialists in Pocohantas, the diminishing of provincial French villagers in Beauty and the Beast, the tacky Jamacian accent employed by one of the characters in The Little Mermaid , etc., etc. Heck, by the time we're done, there won't be a film in the Disney catalog that hasn't been thrown into the fire. :eek:

The opening scene in Aladdin would have to go too--awful stereotype of an Arab merchant (they DID change the lyrics to the song when they released the DVD--it does not match the CD).
and why is it that the crows in Dumbo are ok, but uncle Remus is not? I think one of the crows is even named Jim (yes, seriously).

She is referring to the slur against gays. The one that begins with F and ends in T. It not only used to be used to refer to a "bundle of sticks," it also is an alternative name for "bassoon." My daughter is gay and plays the bassoon and jokingly refer to it as a f-----t all the time. She's a strange child. :rotfl2: I do believe the term used to be used for knitting or something like that. I'm not sure, but I thought I heard that somewhere. I agree with you, it is sad how perfectly good words are basically stolen by haters.

Thanks for explaining:thumbsup2. I was drawing a blank too, though I should have figured that out.
 
In the 2006 Virgina Senate race there was a slur that became front and center in that election that I'd never heard of before... it happens.

That particular "racial slur" just happened to be a childhood nickname of mine. Somehow I doubt my mother was dubbing me with a racial slur (we are white).

I remember the "niggardly" controversy in DC. It's a real word, with a real meaning and it has nothing to do with being a racial slur.
 

The opening scene in Aladdin would have to go too--awful stereotype of an Arab merchant (they DID change the lyrics to the song when they released the DVD--it does not match the CD).
and why is it that the crows in Dumbo are ok, but uncle Remus is not? I think one of the crows is even named Jim (yes, seriously).



Thanks for explaining:thumbsup2. I was drawing a blank too, though I should have figured that out.

Oh, good. Now I don't feel so dumb!

And I agree with the first part of your post too! I had forgotten about those crows.
 
The shortened form of that word means "cigarette" and the female version of that word means "A barrier constructed to contain the flow of water or to keep out the sea.".

I am not in favor of banning words either. However if someone is going to use a word that has a vulgar meaning, then they should be aware of the message that word can convey. Of course, that's probably just my misplaced white heterosexual guilt talking :rolleyes1.

I'll remember that next time I tell the story of King Canute. The word means what it means and there is no reason to try and get around using a perfectly valid word.
 
Actually no one as answered the question as to what exactly it is that is offensive.

A bit has been said about Uncle Remus and the "happy darky" theory and a bit has been said about the term "tar baby" but whether either of those things are exactly what is offensive or if there are other things in the movie that are offensive.

You know, a lot of movies and cartoons and shows are made that make someone look a bit different than they really are. Men or women are shown to be idiots (depending on the show) while the other sex is portrayed much smarter, Native Americans as savages, Russians as all mean and evil, Middle Easterners as all American haters and the list goes on and on. That doesn't mean that everyone thinks that its true.

Am I supposed to get all up in arms everytime a woman is made to look dumb? Or maybe ds's Native American friend should go a picket Disney over some movies? Or maybe parents should be boycotting Disney for the shows that make parents look bad?

What the real African Americans went through during the setting of SOTS is abhorrable. And most people know that. They know Uncle Remus is a CHARACTER in a movie and in no way believe that its a true representation of his race at that time in history.

I absolutely hear what you are saying. There are loads of movies that are offensive to one group or another. There are movies I won't watch because I find them offensive to gays or women. And no, I don't want such movies to be banned. Movies that are geared towards adults who have a greater knowledge of reality are very different from movies targeted to small children. If Disney made a movie that depicted all Middle Easterners to be American haters or all Russians as mean or evil, I think there would be massive protesting.

Remember also, in my first post on this thread, I implied that I'm sort of in the middle on this subject anyway. I'm not rabidly insisting that the movie be banned. I have this other poster who is baiting me by putting words in my mouth, which is doing nothing more than distorting my initial post. I'm stuck defending things I never even said which is just ridiculous. The fact is, I tend to see things in shades of gray. I am not willing to say, "Hey, there's nothing wrong with this movie." I'm willing to listen to Eliza and others who feel that the movie is hurtful. They have given reasons why the movie bothers them. Some I understand, some I don't. I can't always understand because I am a white woman who has no concept of the history that black people live with. If so many people are hurt by it, then all I can do is have faith in their opinion as good and decent people who have a point they need to make. A lot of things that Eliza said resonated with me, which evolved my position on the movie. But as I said in my initial post, I really don't know what the answer is. All I can do is try to understand and be compassionate. If something is hurtful to somebody, I want to know and I want to do my best to understand.
 
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I absolutely hear what you are saying. There are loads of movies that are offensive to one group or another. There are movies I won't watch because I find them offensive to gays or women. And no, I don't want such movies to be banned. Movies that are geared towards adults who have a greater knowledge of reality are very different from movies targeted to small children. If Disney made a movie that depicted all Middle Easterners to be American haters or all Russians as mean or evil, I think there would be massive protesting.

Remember also, in my first post on this thread, I implied that I'm sort of in the middle on this subject anyway. I'm not rabidly insisting that the movie be banned. I have this other poster who is baiting me by putting words in my mouth, which is doing nothing more than distorting my initial post. I'm stuck defending things I never even said which is just ridiculous. The fact is, I tend to see things in shades of gray. I am not willing to say, "Hey, there's nothing wrong with this movie." I'm willing to listen to Eliza and others who feel that the movie is hurtful. They have given reasons why the movie bothers them. Some I understand, some I don't. I can't always understand because I am a white woman who has no concept of the history that black people live with. If so many people are hurt by it, then all I can do is have faith in their opinion as good and decent people who have a point they need to make. A lot of things that Eliza said resonated with me, which evolved my position on the movie. But as I said in my initial post, I really don't know what the answer is. All I can do is try to understand and be compassionate. If something is hurtful to somebody, I want to know and I want to do my best to understand.

yeah, I see your point about it being directed at children rather than adults. I wasn't really looking at it that way, but that does make a difference.

I guess part of it is just not being able to really see it from an African American's point of view. I love the Brer Rabbit and Brer Fox stories, in fact that is really all I remember about the movie. That and Uncle Remus singing Zippidity Do Dah (or however its spelled). The live action parts just really didn't make a big impression on me.

I wonder what Walt's thoughts were on the way Uncle Remus was portrayed. Did he think that was "true to life", did he realize he may offend some people, did he just not care? I guess it was just part of that era not to be concerned with how a minority may feel about the way they are portrayed. But, I do wonder if the movie was made today; would there be a way to make the movie, tell the stories and it not be offensive.
 
I wonder what Walt's thoughts were on the way Uncle Remus was portrayed. Did he think that was "true to life", did he realize he may offend some people, did he just not care? I guess it was just part of that era not to be concerned with how a minority may feel about the way they are portrayed. But, I do wonder if the movie was made today; would there be a way to make the movie, tell the stories and it not be offensive.

I don't profess to know what Walt was thinking, but given the climate of the time (especially in Hollywood, where the status quo of segregation was being challenged) I like to think that he probably was proud that he was able to introduce fairy tales from a different culture to the American public. After all, he covered traditional European tales (Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White), American folk tales (John Henry, Pecos Bill, Johnny Appleseed). Why shouldn't he interpret African tales as well through Jungle Book and Song of the South?
And don't forget, Walt was known for creating his worlds with a rose-colored tint. After all, the buildings in Frontierland have air conditioning, and I have never stepped in horse mess there. So why not create a movie where blacks and whites were allowed to play together. Why can't the black man share his knowledge with a white child? I don't think the censors would have approved if Uncle Remus sat Johnny on his lap and told him all about how the white man was oppressing him.
And to go back to my earlier point, where is the outrage calling for the ban on Peter Pan? Maybe if the song was called "What makes the Black man Black" we would see more outrage? But since it is about the Red man it is OK? :sad2: That is one of the problems with those calling for equality- they are only fighting for equality for THEIR demographic. (which some might say is just a teeny bit racist)
 
yeah, I see your point about it being directed at children rather than adults. I wasn't really looking at it that way, but that does make a difference.

I guess part of it is just not being able to really see it from an African American's point of view. I love the Brer Rabbit and Brer Fox stories, in fact that is really all I remember about the movie. That and Uncle Remus singing Zippidity Do Dah (or however its spelled). The live action parts just really didn't make a big impression on me.

I wonder what Walt's thoughts were on the way Uncle Remus was portrayed. Did he think that was "true to life", did he realize he may offend some people, did he just not care? I guess it was just part of that era not to be concerned with how a minority may feel about the way they are portrayed. But, I do wonder if the movie was made today; would there be a way to make the movie, tell the stories and it not be offensive.

That's exactly it. I don't think Walt was any more uncaring than any other typical white guy during the time but you follow the rules of your time.

When I was a little girl even in NY we didn't even go to the same movie theaters with white folks. It's not some thing that was a written rule, it was just understood.. You do not do this. sports were just starting to be intergrated. No one would have ever thought to make a black guy a quaterback, in fact the common misconception was that we did not have the intelligence to be in that position. Now black quaterbacks are all over the place. In order for me to travel by Amtrack, I took the train to Washington or chicago depending if I was going south or to California then you moved to the Colored car. No white person thought they were racist or these were racist rules, they simply thought that's how it always ways. I remember a white woman asking me why blacks were so upset because "coloreds can get where they want to go in the back of the bus". It never occured to her that this was dehumanizing.

Walt was probably a man of his generation, he would have carried on the negative stereotypes simply because thats what was expected. Disney didn't hire an African american animator until the late 50's, the studio just never would have thought blacks could do any thing but what we called the three C's clean, cook and chauffer. That's one of the reasons why we cringe when the only parts our actresses can get are maids.

truthfully I think if it was made today, I highly doubt if they would have made it live action or in the era it was suppose to portray. Now the studio would be more sensitive to the public (call it pc or whatever) back in 1946, the studio would not have given a single solitary thought to whether or not it was being portrayed as insulting or not.

Hey I still get a laugh out of George Washington fighting for independance while routinely sending his slaves back to virginia just so he can avoid granting them their freedom. go figure.

I think you have to try and step out of your comfort zone a bit. I have 2 native american friends, they loathe, hate and despise "columbus day" and I can understand their view. Can you imagine how insulting it must be for your kids to hear all about how "wonderful" Columbus was when #1 he didn't "discove" any thing, people where here when he got here and #2 when Europeans came they brought a lot of diseases that wiped out entire populations. didn't make Columbus a terrible person it's just you have to remember history is usually told from the "victors" point of view. now whether they are oversensitive or not or whether they should "just get over it" is not for me to say but I can understand. don't even get me started how they feel when they see Anne bancroft as Pochontas!! LOl.
 
I like Song of The South. To treat it (Disney) like a dirty little secret and bury it for eternity is a bit of an injustice. It is art that speaks to both the time it was created and the time it was created about.
 
yeah, I see your point about it being directed at children rather than adults. I wasn't really looking at it that way, but that does make a difference.

I guess part of it is just not being able to really see it from an African American's point of view. I love the Brer Rabbit and Brer Fox stories, in fact that is really all I remember about the movie. That and Uncle Remus singing Zippidity Do Dah (or however its spelled). The live action parts just really didn't make a big impression on me.


I wonder what Walt's thoughts were on the way Uncle Remus was portrayed. Did he think that was "true to life", did he realize he may offend some people, did he just not care? I guess it was just part of that era not to be concerned with how a minority may feel about the way they are portrayed. But, I do wonder if the movie was made today; would there be a way to make the movie, tell the stories and it not be offensive.

I agree completely. Since we don't have that painful history, we can't really wrap our minds around the really awful things that happened. We see the cartoon and we see fun characters and a helluva good soundtrack! Not to mention the single best ride EVER (and I am gonna be ON that ride in ten days!!!!). Like I said, I enjoy the movie. Part of me would love to see it released again. But the other part of me, sadly, has to admit that there are those who are justified in feeling very different. Not an easy problem, and I'm glad I'm not behind the scenes at Disney trying to make such tough calls.

It's an interesting question you pose. If the movie were made today, could they make it without being offensive? I think, maybe so. I think if they allowed themselves to be open to input from people who are affected by the history, then yeah, maybe they could find a politically correct way to make a really great film that depicts the time. There are some amazing minds behind Disney, I think just about anything is possible!
 
I agree completely. Since we don't have that painful history, we can't really wrap our minds around the really awful things that happened. We see the cartoon and we see fun characters and a helluva good soundtrack! Not to mention the single best ride EVER (and I am gonna be ON that ride in ten days!!!!). Like I said, I enjoy the movie. Part of me would love to see it released again. But the other part of me, sadly, has to admit that there are those who are justified in feeling very different. Not an easy problem, and I'm glad I'm not behind the scenes at Disney trying to make such tough calls.

It's an interesting question you pose. If the movie were made today, could they make it without being offensive? I think, maybe so. I think if they allowed themselves to be open to input from people who are affected by the history, then yeah, maybe they could find a politically correct way to make a really great film that depicts the time. There are some amazing minds behind Disney, I think just about anything is possible!

But I think they would have to look really, really hard to get input from someone who was alive during the Reconstructive South.:confused3 That is the history and time period we are talking about here, right?
 
By the tone of voice, Brer Fox & Bear come across as white rednecks compared to the smarter Brer Rabbit

What most people don't know is those "redneck" vocalizations were done by....

....James Baskett.

Who is the actor who played Uncle Remus. :teacher:
 
Why in heaven's name would she need to satisfy your demands for specific lines and scenes.

For the simple reason that rule numero ONE for giving negative feedback, ergo "I find X-Y-Z offensive," is to be specific. Explain exactly what the issue is.

Any psychologist will tell you this. As will anyone who manages people.

For if you aren't specific, you are generalizing, which weakens your argument. Telling your neighbor that the rap music they are blasting at late hours is keeping your family awake is much more effective than telling your neighbor "you bother us."

Or put more bluntly, vagueness doesn't cut it. And that include usings the vague generalization that SOTS is "offensive" as an excuse to ban it.
 
CandyMandy, why are you digging up zombie threads? This isn't the first one you have resurrected in the last couple of days.
 
why are you digging up zombie threads?

So the zombies who ran away from questions they were asked (such as "precisely what did you find offensive about SOTS?") will be reminded that their flight was noted and not forgotten. ;)
You can run and try to hide
but that will be noted
 
I watched it on Youtube yesterday after reading this thread. Question: why did the dad have to go away? I see references to pre-civil war but I thought it was post.
 
So the zombies who ran away from questions they were asked (such as "precisely what did you find offensive about SOTS?") will be reminded that their flight was noted and not forgotten. ;)
You can run and try to hide
but that will be noted

You must be very bored to keep track of such things.
 
I never look back darlin', it distracts from the now~ Edna Mode



edna_mode.jpg
 
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