Just watched "Song of the South"......

[eliza61]

Re: bolded - So, in addition to not allowing Mr. Baskett to go to the premiere 65 years ago we are compounding the issue by not allowing his work to be seen now by anyone. Isn't this a disservice to him?

who knows? Maybe he didn't think to much of the work? Maybe not going to the premiere soured him. My father won a silver star in Korea, wonded saving the lives of 6 other soldier and when he got home to the country he was supposedely fighting to save hewas forced to ride in the colored car of a train in order to go back down south to visit his mother. He never rode on amtrack again in his life and he mistrusted the government for the rest of his life.

Maybe Mr. Baskett would have live through the civil rights movement and said you know what, burn the sucker? He started his career with on Broadway with the great Louis Armstrong and made a couple of movies for Black film companies. Maybe he was more proud of that work.

I don't know how he felt but I willing to bet good money as a black actor in a segregated country, no one asked him his opinion on the matter.

I glad people here can "look" outside the times. of course thats pretty easy when it wasn't your ancestors who were enslaved, sold, raped, dehumanized, tortured, lynched and told every day that you were less than a human (the old 3/4 rule). As I've state time and again. I don't have that luxury. I will continue to speak out against any steretoype I see as continuing that dehumanization. talk to me when it constantly happens to blond white women. then you can tell me to "get over it" or "take back my power"

Who knows, we can play 20 questions all day.

 

[EMom]

I have been trying to put my finger on why some posters are so obtuse that they can't seem to see the inherent racism in SOTS and even go as far as to defend terms like "tar baby". I think I finally understand why. The film is a product of it's time of racial segregation and many (not all) posters here are a product of the "Post-Huxtable" time racial acceptance and of a visible black middle class.

There is NOTHING inherently racist in the term "tar baby." Nothing. One poster has provided a lengthy explanation of the history of the character, both in African American folklore and in that of many other cultures. Although the tar creature is not always a baby, (sometimes a wolf, etc.) it is always made of a sticky substance, thus making it the perfect vehicle to entice and trap Brer Rabbit.

As I said earlier, as a child I loved the Tar Baby. He never said a word, but I always thought there was a personality in there, and that he was probably more clever than Brer Fox and Brer Rabbit combined. I grew up in the 60s and 70s too and I always knew he was made of tar and never thought he was an actual Black/African American baby. "Tar baby" was a sticky situation. Sort of like, "When Iger keeps being asked about re-releasing SOTS, he finds the whole situation to be a bit of a tar baby."

Of course, no one will say that, because somewhere along the way, some idiots used the term as a slur and now it's politically incorrect to use it. If you do, you must secretly belong to the KKK. Well, I am sick of that sort of thing. I am sick of a perfectly harmless word or phrase that has a rich history being usurped by some yahoos and thus being declared off limits and turned into "that word which must never be spoken again." It is our responsibility to teach our children history and that includes the history of words.

Tell them if someone uses tar baby as a slur instead of as a synonym for "sticky situation", they are showing their ignorance. Reclaim the phrase for what is really is and stop letting anyone twist it into something else that doesn't even make any sense. Do that and you take away their power and show them for the dunce they are.

These stories are wonderful, but you cannot tell them without the Tar Baby. Sorry, a honey pot won't cut it.

 

[eliza61]

There is NOTHING inherently racist in the term "tar baby." Nothing. One poster has provided a lengthy explanation of the history of the character, both in African American folklore and in that of many other cultures. Although the tar creature is not always a baby, (sometimes a wolf, etc.) it is always made of a sticky substance, thus making it the perfect vehicle to entice and trap Brer Rabbit.

As I said earlier, as a child I loved the Tar Baby. He never said a word, but I always thought there was a personality in there, and that he was probably more clever than Brer Fox and Brer Rabbit combined. I grew up in the 60s and 70s too and I always knew he was made of tar and never thought he was an actual Black/African American baby. "Tar baby" was a sticky situation. Sort of like, "When Iger keeps being asked about re-releasing SOTS, he finds the whole situation to be a bit of a tar baby."

Of course, no one will say that, because somewhere along the way, some idiots used the term as a slur and now it's politically incorrect to use it. If you do, you must secretly belong to the KKK. Well, I am sick of that sort of thing. I am sick of a perfectly harmless word or phrase that has a rich history being usurped by some yahoos and thus being declared off limits and turned into "that word which must never be spoken again." It is our responsibility to teach our children history and that includes the history of words.

Tell them if someone uses tar baby as a slur instead of as a synonym for "sticky situation", they are showing their ignorance. Reclaim the phrase for what is really is and stop letting anyone twist it into something else that doesn't even make any sense. Do that and you take away their power and show them for the dunce they are.

These stories are wonderful, but you cannot tell them without the Tar Baby. Sorry, a honey pot won't cut it.

And that's a lovely sentiment Emom and I wish every one thought like that but the reality of it is, when some one calls my neice at school "Tar baby" they are NOT talking about a "sticky" situation. The are using it as a demeaning slur against her ebony skin. They are using the words to make her feel inferior. The reality is also that as much as parents do teach their kids about values and self worth, insults from their peers hurt and are offensive.

Once again it's fine in the magic kingdom to pretend that words have no meaning and are harmless but in the real world that is not the way it works.
If it did, why is their a national epidemic of young kids committing suicide if some one thinks they are gay?

 

[robinb]

There is NOTHING inherently racist in the term "tar baby." Nothing. One poster has provided a lengthy explanation of the history of the character, both in African American folklore and in that of many other cultures. Although the tar creature is not always a baby, (sometimes a wolf, etc.) it is always made of a sticky substance, thus making it the perfect vehicle to entice and trap Brer Rabbit.

As I said earlier, as a child I loved the Tar Baby. He never said a word, but I always thought there was a personality in there, and that he was probably more clever than Brer Fox and Brer Rabbit combined. I grew up in the 60s and 70s too and I always knew he was made of tar and never thought he was an actual Black/African American baby. "Tar baby" was a sticky situation. Sort of like, "When Iger keeps being asked about re-releasing SOTS, he finds the whole situation to be a bit of a tar baby."

Of course, no one will say that, because somewhere along the way, some idiots used the term as a slur and now it's politically incorrect to use it. If you do, you must secretly belong to the KKK. Well, I am sick of that sort of thing. I am sick of a perfectly harmless word or phrase that has a rich history being usurped by some yahoos and thus being declared off limits and turned into "that word which must never be spoken again." It is our responsibility to teach our children history and that includes the history of words.

Tell them if someone uses tar baby as a slur instead of as a synonym for "sticky situation", they are showing their ignorance. Reclaim the phrase for what is really is and stop letting anyone twist it into something else that doesn't even make any sense. Do that and you take away their power and show them for the dunce they are.

These stories are wonderful, but you cannot tell them without the Tar Baby. Sorry, a honey pot won't cut it.

If you continue to defend a term like "tar baby", then I have to just shake my head and know that you just don't "get it" . It doesn't matter how rich the history of the term is, or where it originated. The fact is, that the term has been racially charged for decades. And it's not the sole property of the KKK. I have personally heard it used by everyday garden variety Northern racists who wouldn't dream of wearing a sheet or burning a cross.

If you continue to use the phrase to mean "sticky situation" when it means something completely different to many, many people of all races you risk looking ignorant at best and probably much worse. People will think you a racist. I have some news for you. It's not your white American place to reclaim the phrase. If African American people want to reclaim it, they can. Even if they do, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting to be able to use "tar baby" in regular polite conversation. Other phrases have been reclaimed by the people that they were used to denigrate, but I still can't use them on the DIS.

 

[luvsJack]

I have hear a huge number of racist terms in my lifetime, but "tar baby" is not one of those terms.

I never even considered it being some kind of racist term.

But, I have to say that if every time some idiot decides to use a word against another race, we decide that word must be stricken or banned or whole movies banned because of it---soon we will run out of words.

There will always be someone to take a story like the Tar Baby and change it into something it never was in the first place.

 

[EMom]

If you continue to defend a term like "tar baby", then I have to just shake my head and know that you just don't "get it" . It doesn't matter how rich the history of the term is, or where it originated. The fact is, that the term has been racially charged for decades. And it's not the sole property of the KKK. I have personally heard it used by everyday garden variety Northern racists who wouldn't dream of wearing a sheet or burning a cross.

If you continue to use the phrase to mean "sticky situation" when it means something completely different to many, many people of all races you risk looking ignorant at best and probably much worse. People will think you a racist. I have some news for you. It's not your white American place to reclaim the phrase. If African American people want to reclaim it, they can. Even if they do, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting to be able to use "tar baby" in regular polite conversation. Other phrases have been reclaimed by the people that they were used to denigrate, but I still can't use them on the DIS.

Actually, I don't use the term for "sticky situation." I use it when referring to the CHARACTER in the stories because that is his name. I am not going to start saying, "The TB word."

BTW, it is not YOUR place to tell me what my White American place is. I'll decide that, thank you.

 

[Geoff_M]

I have been trying to put my finger on why some posters are so obtuse that they can't seem to see the inherent racism in SOTS and even go as far as to defend terms like "tar baby". I think I finally understand why. The film is a product of it's time of racial segregation and many (not all) posters here are a product of the "Post-Huxtable" time racial acceptance and of a visible black middle class.

"Obtuse"? Really? Because someone doesn't see it your way on this issue that makes them "obtuse"? Instead of implying we're slow to come to your enlightened position because we're ignorant of past history, perhaps there's another reason. I can make a differentiation between a racial stereotype and "racist". Yes, the film contains a number of racial stereotypes, but that doesn't make it racist by definition. Some may be soured on the film because of these stereotype, and so be it... that's their right. I'm not about to tell someone they aren't allowed to feel that way or that such feelings are "wrong". I also won't catalog my racial sensitivity bona fides for comparison to yours, but let's say our backgrounds probably aren't too dissimilar.

As for the issues of the racial realities of the period the film is set in or the period in Hollywood when the film was made I ask "Where do we draw the line?" Is Casablanca "inherently racist" because the only role given to an African American is a minor one as a bar musician/singer? Are other movies that only display African Americans in stereotypical roles such as railway porters and maids "inherently racist" and a jaundiced eye should be cast towards them? Should we even view more modern films like Field of Dreams as "inherently racist" because we never see a uniform from the Negro League in the film or that James Earl Jones' character, and everyone else, never mentions "Cool Papa" Bell, Josh Gibson or Satchel Paige as a legend of the game and the racial injustices they faced?

So if such things bother people enough that it ruins the film for them, then so be it. (In a recent thread here I mentioned that I dislike Pretty Woman because I can't get passed the fact that Julia Roberts' character is a prostitute.) But telling people that the reason I can't see things your way is because they lack perspective is about as baseless as my trying to say that the reason you feel the way you do is due to some aspect of misplaced "white guilt".

 

[eliza61]

I have hear a huge number of racist terms in my lifetime, but "tar baby" is not one of those terms.

I never even considered it being some kind of racist term.

But, I have to say that if every time some idiot decides to use a word against another race, we decide that word must be stricken or banned or whole movies banned because of it---soon we will run out of words.

There will always be someone to take a story like the Tar Baby and change it into something it never was in the first place.

Come on Luvs, you know thats not true. some words for whatever reason "morph" into slurs and most folks can tell the difference.

****** started out as meaning a "bundle of sticks" but really, when that word is yelled at some one, you some how can't tell if it's being used derogatorly?

No one is banning the words, but please lets not pretend that all of a sudden certain words are being misconstrued because they did not start out sinisterly.

 

[robinb]

Come on Luvs, you know thats not true. some words for whatever reason "morph" into slurs and most folks can tell the difference.

****** started out as meaning a "bundle of sticks" but really, when that word is yelled at some one, you some how can't tell if it's being used derogatorly?

No one is banning the words, but please lets not pretend that all of a sudden certain words are being misconstrued because they did not start out sinisterly.

The shortened form of that word means "cigarette" and the female version of that word means "A barrier constructed to contain the flow of water or to keep out the sea.".

I am not in favor of banning words either. However if someone is going to use a word that has a vulgar meaning, then they should be aware of the message that word can convey. Of course, that's probably just my misplaced white heterosexual guilt talking .

 

[ZellyB]

So the "math" in the quoted post above is pretty much meaningless.

The math was meant to be a joke. Thus listing out the broad range of possible numbers of offended people followed by a You were the one who initially wanted proof of the numbers of people who would be offended (and act on it accordingly) and used the anecdotal numbers seen in this thread. I would have used a tongue-in-cheek smilie if one existed but had to opt for the instead.

The REAL point of my "math" post was that the numbers are frankly meaningless. Disney believes that the release of the movie is bad business (either because they personally think it's offensive themselves or fear a public backlash) whether or not you agree with that or not.

Why does it matter anyway? As reported by many posters on this thread there are numerous places the film can be watched or purchased. Why does Disney need to risk a release?

 

[iheartdisney]

Come on Luvs, you know thats not true. some words for whatever reason "morph" into slurs and most folks can tell the difference.

****** started out as meaning a "bundle of sticks" but really, when that word is yelled at some one, you some how can't tell if it's being used derogatorly?

No one is banning the words, but please lets not pretend that all of a sudden certain words are being misconstrued because they did not start out sinisterly.

So, am I no longer allowed to sing the lyrics to South Pacific, because Nelly is as "bright and as gay as a daisy in May?"

And what about movies that depict other minorities in not the best light? I think the Native American population has a MUCH bigger ax to grind from their history, but Disney sees fit to release Peter Pan, Little Hiawatha, Pecos Bill, and any number of movies that stereotype them as savages, even using words like Injun and Red Man. And yet no protests. Where is your anger?

 

[ZellyB]

I cannot believe there are people who don't know that tar baby is a racial slur, regardless of its original meaning. That's shocking to me.

 

[iheartdisney]

I cannot believe there are people who don't know that tar baby is a racial slur, regardless of its original meaning. That's shocking to me.

Maybe because some of us didn't grow up in racially charged society. I have NEVER heard the term until I watched the movie. And I have lived in 6 different states, from east to West, Noth to South.
Because there are ALOT of places where race... really isn't a big deal.

 

[luvsJack]

Come on Luvs, you know thats not true. some words for whatever reason "morph" into slurs and most folks can tell the difference.

****** started out as meaning a "bundle of sticks" but really, when that word is yelled at some one, you some how can't tell if it's being used derogatorly?

No one is banning the words, but please lets not pretend that all of a sudden certain words are being misconstrued because they did not start out sinisterly.

I have honestly never heard tar baby used as a slur of any kind. Of course I guess I am a bit slow because I have no idea what word you have starred out there

Now, I do realize that there are words that have morphed into racial (or other) slurs and that we can't go back to their original intended meaning. Really, I do. I just honestly feel that we give the racists, sexists, anti-whatever relegion folks way too much power when because THEY decide to use a particular saying, word, phrase, item, whatever and we decide it can never be shown or used again. I guess there is really no way to fix that though, I just find it sad that the haters of the world have so much power.

 

[Geoff_M]

I cannot believe there are people who don't know that tar baby is a racial slur, regardless of its original meaning. That's shocking to me.

In the 2006 Virgina Senate race there was a slur that became front and center in that election that I'd never heard of before... it happens.

 

[CandyMandy]

So, am I no longer allowed to sing the lyrics to South Pacific, because Nelly is as "bright and as gay as a daisy in May?"

And what about movies that depict other minorities in not the best light? I think the Native American population has a MUCH bigger ax to grind from their history, but Disney sees fit to release Peter Pan, Little Hiawatha, Pecos Bill, and any number of movies that stereotype them as savages, even using words like Injun and Red Man. And yet no protests. Where is your anger?

Absolutely excellent point and one that wonderfully calls out the inconsistency of PC-mantra.

The philosophy behind that mantra leads some to want to burn all copies of SOTS based on the perception that is necessary if even just one person is offended by it, adding the notion that Disney just can't afford the risk of offending them.

But then there is silence when you point out that logic also mandates attacking scores of other presumably blatant stereotypes present in other currently available Disney films.

Well, at least for awhile. I suspect there will eventually be retorts stating "well, yeah, Disney should remove those offensive native American references, too." I guess we can then bring up the ugly stereotypes of British colonialists in Pocohantas, the diminishing of provincial French villagers in Beauty and the Beast, the tacky Jamacian accent employed by one of the characters in The Little Mermaid , etc., etc. Heck, by the time we're done, there won't be a film in the Disney catalog that hasn't been thrown into the fire.

 

[CandyMandy]

think there is a huge difference between being racist and being misinformed or uneducated.

So, please help us out with exactly how Walt Disney was misinformed in the picture he painted in SOTS and/or how that reflects on him being uneducated.

I really want to understand the intellectual flaws in Mr. Disney.

 

[The Orchid]

So, please help us out with exactly how Walt Disney was misinformed in the picture he painted in SOTS and/or how that reflects on him being uneducated.

I really want to understand the intellectual flaws in Mr. Disney.

First of all, allow me to make one thing clear. I worship nobody. Just because Mr Disney is Mr Disney does not mean he is infallible! He was not a God, he was a person. He did great things, but he was still human.

Second, I do believe that Eliza has repeatedly explained the shortcomings of the film and the reasons why it is offensive. I see absolutely no reason to be redundant.

Third, good luck in figuring out anything about Mr Disney's intellectual flaws. Last I knew he was dead. One thing is crystal clear. He was a privileged, white, male who did not see the movie from the perspective of an African American. So yes, that does make him uneducated on that particular subject.

What if Disney created a movie from, say the 1990s, that implied that gay and lesbian people in the military had it great? Don't you think it would show a strong lack of understanding if he created a movie showing gays and lesbians happily and openly serving, singing and having a high old time when in fact they were being discriminated against, harassed and kicked out? I guess the obvious question to ask would be, what is the point of such a movie? The same is true of SOTS. There was no need to take a subject that was painful and negative and turn it into a sing song happily ever after movie. It could have simply not been made, just like they are obviously not going to make a movie depicting gays in the military as singing and having a fantastic time. What would have been wrong with just leaving the subject alone and not making a Disney film of it at all?

 

[debrapagliasotti]

I recently started looking for it so my older kids could watch it. I've found it online for sale, but I'm not willing to pay as much as some people are asking for it. I looked on Netflix, but of course its "avail date unkown". I have never seen it...or if I have, I dont remember it.

 

[The Orchid]

I have honestly never heard tar baby used as a slur of any kind. Of course I guess I am a bit slow because I have no idea what word you have starred out there

Now, I do realize that there are words that have morphed into racial (or other) slurs and that we can't go back to their original intended meaning. Really, I do. I just honestly feel that we give the racists, sexists, anti-whatever relegion folks way too much power when because THEY decide to use a particular saying, word, phrase, item, whatever and we decide it can never be shown or used again. I guess there is really no way to fix that though, I just find it sad that the haters of the world have so much power.

She is referring to the slur against gays. The one that begins with F and ends in T. It not only used to be used to refer to a "bundle of sticks," it also is an alternative name for "bassoon." My daughter is gay and plays the bassoon and jokingly refer to it as a f-----t all the time. She's a strange child. I do believe the term used to be used for knitting or something like that. I'm not sure, but I thought I heard that somewhere. I agree with you, it is sad how perfectly good words are basically stolen by haters.