Just Purchased!

[Breyean]

Case in point, after doing all my research I determined that I wanted to buy at BWV and BLT because that's where I wanted to stay. Well, after living with the contracts for a year I realized that I was using the 11 month advantage, but I was also booking short notice trips anywhere between two days and seven months in advance. Well, I could use any points for those stays, I didn't need the more expensive points for them. So I ended up selling one BWV contract and buying SSR to serve as a points cow. Had you asked me in the beginning, I never would have bought at SSR because I don't like staying at the resort. But booking stays at BLT and VGC using those inexpensive points makes me . So I was definitely wrong about that.

I also own at a cheap (OKW points from 1993) and an expensive (VGC points bought both direct and resale the past 2 years).

Since we live near DLR and go there more often that WDW now, we use the VGC points for planned trips (DL 1/2 marathon; a GV with friends next Feb).

But we are also able to get to DLR on shorter notice than the 7 month window, and I LOVE using my OKW points to stay at VGC. Always makes me feel like the cat who swallowed the canary. We were able to do that twice last year using on line booking to get cancelled rooms that just popped up.

 

[Missyrose]

I love these boards, but I have to admit sometimes people don't ask many questions on here before they tell you to sit there and think about what you've done, and what they think (laden with assumptions ) But there is some value in nay-saying because if you can confidently address issues they raise (at least to yourself), that should give you some peace of mind that you've made a sound choice.

And herein lies the frustration with new posters who start scolding the veterans for helping someone. No one yelled at the OP and told them to go sit in a corner until they'd though about what they had done. Almost everyone who responded in this thread asked the OP questions to gauge where they really were and helped put them on the track of making the best decision for their family, rather than an impulse decision that could haunt them for a long time. It makes me wonder why I bother answering threads any more if people are just going to rag on us for helping others.

 

[nd43]

To be fair, you haven't really had any time to experience this choice, so it's a little premature to determine whether or not it's working for you

To be clear, what I said was, we REMAIN happy with our choice. Meaning, after considering everything (and trying several things), we still believe, at this time, our choice of VGF was right for us. I guess I could have said we are CURRENTLY happy with the choice.

Honestly, I did not know I had to place a caveat on my personal happiness.

As for using VGF "expensive points" for other resorts, you are misguided. The true "cost" of my points will be finally determined when I sell them (which, like many DVC owners, will most likely happen). Therefore, the true "cost" of my points will be a function of the difference of my purchase price and sales price and the carrying cost and / or opportunity cost in between.

Given no one knows what that sells price will be, no one can really know the final true cost of my points. It might be that I had some of the cheapest points in the system once the final sell is closed. Who knows. Getting fixated on what one pays in the front end vs. what one will sell them for on the back end ignores probably the single largest factor in determining the final true cost of points, which is the final selling price. Therefore, people who buy VGF should not feel "hostage" to their points in terms of using them only for VGF just because the front cost was high. In fact, people who purchase older resorts direct will most likely have far costlier points then early VGF owners when all is said and done. If resale is very strong for VGF, your SSR points might end up being more expensive then my VGF points. No one knows.

For those buying "cheaper" resale contracts at older BWV, etc., your best hope is a contract extension in 10 years or your resale points might end up being far more expensive then the direct VGF points as your contract end of life approaches and the value of the points potentially plummet in resale.

Yet another reason to be cautious of all the people that immediately proclaim resale is cheaper. Yes, it is on the front end, but the true cost is determined on the back end for most owners. They have not seen resale during the final 10-15 years of a contract yet. However, it is coming and no one knows how Disney will handle it this time given the screw ups during OKW extension. So, if older resorts start to plummet in resale value once contract end of life approaches, those resale points could end being far more expensive then VGF direct points which will still have plenty of contract life. Yet another often missed point on this board.

Sorry, just needed to unload that. I am tired of reading how "expensive" points are by people that completely ignore the final determination of cost for most owners, the sales price. So, you cannot conclude VGF points are truly more expensive then any other points until it comes to time to sell.

 

[ELMC]

I'm going to say this as nicely as possible, and I fully expect to be accused of ruining your day, stomping on your vacation happiness, being against DVC, Disney, direct purchases, vacations in general and mice. But I can weather that no problem, just as long as you understand that my intent is to help and not to insult or belittle you.

Holy cow. Do you realize that you used the words "killed" "terrified" and "nervous" to describe this purchase? I would think that a vacation timeshare purchase would be a source of happiness, not terror.

Do you realize that the down payment that killed you is only 10% of your purchase commitment and that you are responsible for coming up with twenty times that amount over the next ten years in terms of principal, interest and maintenance fees (not to mention actual vacation costs)?

Do you think that the fact that you didn't have equity in your home to help finance this purchase is a sign that maybe it's not the best idea?

I don't know the dynamic between you and your spouse, but have you asked her why she insists on paying direct? Is she the one shouldering the burden for the extra $12,000 that you are paying vs. resale or are you?

One quick correction, you stated that the down payment killed you, much like it does to everyone here. I don't think it's safe to make that assumption and I would hate for you to enter into this situation thinking that it was the norm. Many, many people purchase their DVC contracts outright and those that do finance often do so with little worry or stress. If the down payment is financially stressful for you, that might be a sign.

I have to say, I'm nervous for you and I have absolutely no stake in this decision. Please consider these questions and I wish you the best of luck with whatever you decide.

REVISING, I missed the updates:


I love these boards, but I have to admit sometimes people don't ask many questions on here before they tell you to sit there and think about what you've done, and what they think (laden with assumptions ) But there is some value in nay-saying because if you can confidently address issues they raise (at least to yourself), that should give you some peace of mind that you've made a sound choice.

Not to pile on, but your post rubbed me the wrong way when I first read it, and coming back to it hours later, it still rubs me the wrong way.

I quoted my post as an example, but if you go back and read the thread, you will see that almost every post on the first page contains questions along with suggestions. Your characterization is way off. Furthermore, nobody is putting anybody in time out or telling anyone to think about what they have done. What we are doing is presenting the other side of the story, the one that your salesperson (not guide) won't tell you.

With regards to "nay saying", there is value to it beyond just using it as a yardstick to measure one's decision. Sometimes we nay sayers actually save people from making a horrible mistake. We know this because people come back on the threads and thank us for saving them from making a horrible mistake.

I find myself saying this a lot lately, but it bears repeating. You've been registered here on the DIS for a month. I don't think you have the perspective to make such sweeping (and insulting) generalizations as the ones you have made above.

 

[networktek]

Congrats and welcome home

 

[bakerworld]

Called my agent and left a message to cancel/rescind my contract. I know I will get my deposit back, so no worries there. I will look into resale and other options at that point. Thanks for all the information and after looking more into the resale options, I agree. I don't see spending 12k more for the same points.

Thanks for all the information. I will be back online posting one day soon.

Congratulations on doing what fits into your confort zone. We had looked into DVC a couple times before we decided to purchase because we always knew were only purchasing a room.

 

[ELMC]

To be clear, what I said was, we REMAIN happy with our choice. Meaning, after considering everything (and trying several things), we still believe, at this time, our choice of VGF was right for us. I guess I could have said we are CURRENTLY happy with the choice.

Honestly, I did not know I had to place a caveat on my personal happiness.

You don't. And you also don't have to defend yourself constantly, yet you seem to. My point was that it takes time to evaluate whether or not your decision was ultimately a good one. Of course you remain happy with your decision...you made it three weeks ago. If you changed your mind in such a short period of time that would be a concern.

As for using VGF "expensive points" for other resorts, you are misguided. The true "cost" of my points will be finally determined when I sell them (which, like many DVC owners, will most likely happen). Therefore, the true "cost" of my points will be a function of the difference of my purchase price and sales price and the carrying cost and / or opportunity cost in between.

I literally had to read your post four times before I could develop an opinion on what you said. I find what you wrote to be fascinating, and I mean that in a good way. But I also find it to be so theoretical and subject to so many different variables, that to actually place any stock in it is utter folly. It is, however, the single biggest financial gymnastics move I have ever seen. The true cost of the points is the exact amount of the check you wrote when you signed the contract. You can amortize, defray, recoup or whatever you want over the long run to justify your thinking, but the bottom line is that cash flow is king. You spent X number of dollars to purchase that contract, that is your cost.

Given no one knows what that sells price will be, no one can really know the final true cost of my points. It might be that I had some of the cheapest points in the system once the final sell is closed. Who knows. Getting fixated on what one pays in the front end vs. what one will sell them for on the back end ignores probably the single largest factor in determining the final true cost of points, which is the final selling price. Therefore, people who buy VGF should not feel "hostage" to their points in terms of using them only for VGF just because the front cost was high. In fact, people who purchase older resorts direct will most likely have far costlier points then early VGF owners when all is said and done. If resale is very strong for VGF, your SSR points might end up being more expensive then my VGF points. No one knows.

I can take a guess and say that you're wrong. My net purchase cost for my BWV points was $45. That number is $44 for SSR. I'm pretty sure both my up front and long term costs will be lower than your VGF purchase.

For those buying "cheaper" resale contracts at older BWV, etc., your best hope is a contract extension in 10 years or your resale points might end up being far more expensive then the direct VGF points as your contract end of life approaches and the value of the points potentially plummet in resale.

Yet another reason to be cautious of all the people that immediately proclaim resale is cheaper. Yes, it is on the front end, but the true cost is determined on the back end for most owners. They have not seen resale during the final 10-15 years of a contract yet. However, it is coming and no one knows how Disney will handle it this time given the screw ups during OKW extension. So, if older resorts start to plummet in resale value once contract end of life approaches, those resale points could end being far more expensive then VGF direct points which will still have plenty of contract life. Yet another often missed point on this board.

Sorry, just needed to unload that. I am tired of reading how "expensive" points are by people that completely ignore the final determination of cost for most owners, the sales price. So, you cannot conclude VGF points are truly more expensive then any other points until it comes to time to sell.

I appreciate this perspective, really I do. Furthermore, I find it very interesting. But the problem with it is the same problem I have with many of the analyses that take place on here. It is all theoretical and subject to a multitude of variables. Could your scenario play out as you described? Sure. But Disney could also decide to close the theme parks and render DVC worthless. I'm not saying that these two outcomes have an equal probability, but what I am saying is that they are both completely theoretical. My position, on the other hand, deals with real numbers. DVC costs what you pay to acquire it. If you happen to sell, then you can go back and adjust your cost numbers at that time. But to leave that line item in your balance sheet blank for a few decades until you sell and ascertain an accurate number is nonsense. Some of the analyses (yours included in my opinion) seem to be self soothing justifications of one's chosen course of action.

My 150 points at BWV cost me $6,750. Your 150 points at VGF cost you $22,500. I hate to break it to you, but your points were more expensive.

 

[DougEMG]

And herein lies the frustration with new posters who start scolding the veterans for helping someone. No one yelled at the OP and told them to go sit in a corner until they'd though about what they had done. Almost everyone who responded in this thread asked the OP questions to gauge where they really were and helped put them on the track of making the best decision for their family, rather than an impulse decision that could haunt them for a long time. It makes me wonder why I bother answering threads any more if people are just going to rag on us for helping others.

Because there are going to be a lot of people that read the thread, learn from it, but don't respond. Everything I learned about DVC I learned here from people who took the time to explain things.

 

[NoleFan]

To be clear, what I said was, we REMAIN happy with our choice. Meaning, after considering everything (and trying several things), we still believe, at this time, our choice of VGF was right for us. I guess I could have said we are CURRENTLY happy with the choice.

As for using VGF "expensive points" for other resorts, you are misguided. The true "cost" of my points will be finally determined when I sell them (which, like many DVC owners, will most likely happen).

In fact, people who purchase older resorts direct will most likely have far costlier points then early VGF owners when all is said and done. If resale is very strong for VGF, your SSR points might end up being more expensive then my VGF points. No one knows.

For those buying "cheaper" resale contracts at older BWV, etc., your best hope is a contract extension in 10 years or your resale points might end up being far more expensive then the direct VGF points as your contract end of life approaches and the value of the points potentially plummet in resale.

Yet another reason to be cautious of all the people that immediately proclaim resale is cheaper. Yes, it is on the front end, but the true cost is determined on the back end for most owners. They have not seen resale during the final 10-15 years of a contract yet. However, it is coming and no one knows how Disney will handle it this time given the screw ups during OKW extension. So, if older resorts start to plummet in resale value once contract end of life approaches, those resale points could end being far more expensive then VGF direct points which will still have plenty of contract life. Yet another often missed point on this board.

Sorry, just needed to unload that. I am tired of reading how "expensive" points are by people that completely ignore the final determination of cost for most owners, the sales price. So, you cannot conclude VGF points are truly more expensive then any other points until it comes to time to sell.

I think a lot of the veterans who contribute to this board provide a lot of insight. I am still a rookie at this & have learned a lot from these boards. Many ask, is this the right decision, etc. without providing their personal, unique situation. I think if all the facts are presented up front (ie here's my situation- when I like to travel, where I want to stay, room size, how many points I want to purchase, what budget is, cash or finance, when their next trips are), others can give more individualized advice. In lieu of having all the facts, people advise them of potential pitfalls (as they should) & things to be cautious of or alternate choices. I certainly like to consider all my options & know of any potential pitfalls upfront prior to engaging in a long term financial commitment.

If I recall, this board helped in your decision to purchase VGF direct & break up your points into smaller contracts after your resale contract was ROFR'd.

As for the points above, not everyone can determine whether they truly love a resort or not until they actual stay there. Again, everyone's situation is different & a model room in not an absolute for everyone.

I believe if you buy VGF, you should use it @ VGF. $150/pp is a lot of $$ & their point chart is higher than other resorts. Hence, I believe based on the points chart alone, it is more expensive to stay there. Conversely, if you are staying @ VGF ($150/pp)with your SS points (resale $60-75/pp average), I would say you got a bargain basement sale price for your stay! I doubt SSR points will ever be more expensive than VGF. There are far more SSR points available than VGF so basic supply & demand.

As for the classic resorts, BWV is not one of the cheaper ones to purchase via resale. Cheaper than direct but not cheaper comparative to several other resorts (specifically SSR, AKL, OKW, VWL). SSR, AKL, & some OKW even have longer contract expiry dates. At the end of your contract, you can always rent your points which is a value. Typically takes less time to recoup your initial investment when purchasing resale. My BWV & BCV expire in 2042 which gives me 29 years of vacations- I am happy with that. Contract expiration is not pivotal to me. For others, it may or may not be.

Sure there is no way to determine the any final values. However, I do envy those who bought in when OKW was built. Great pricing, have enjoyed their points for years, & their points are still of value. If their schedules are flexible, they can & have enjoyed their lower prices points at many other WDW resorts.

 

[DougEMG]

Case in point, after doing all my research I determined that I wanted to buy at BWV and BLT because that's where I wanted to stay. Well, after living with the contracts for a year I realized that I was using the 11 month advantage, but I was also booking short notice trips anywhere between two days and seven months in advance. Well, I could use any points for those stays, I didn't need the more expensive points for them. So I ended up selling one BWV contract and buying SSR to serve as a points cow. Had you asked me in the beginning, I never would have bought at SSR because I don't like staying at the resort. But booking stays at BLT and VGC using those inexpensive points makes me . So I was definitely wrong about that.

This is an important point for people new to DVC to learn. Owning a home resort only gives you an advantage within that 7-11 month window. Once that 7 month window opens up, all points are the same and it doesn't matter if you are using a $150 VGF point or a $60 SSR point to book with they both have access to the same rooms.

And it is for this reason that if you are booking a lot of reservations under 7 months that SSR is one of the best resorts to own based on resale price, MF and contract length.

So if you are paying a premium for your home resort, make sure that you are going to be able use your home resort booking window.

 

[NoleFan]

This is an important point for people new to DVC to learn. Owning a home resort only gives you an advantage within that 7-11 month window. Once that 7 month window opens up, all points are the same and it doesn't matter if you are using a $150 VGF point or a $60 SSR point to book with they both have access to the same rooms.

And it is for this reason that if you are booking a lot of reservations under 7 months that SSR is one of the best resorts to own based on resale price, MF and contract length.

So if you are paying a premium for your home resort, make sure that you are going to be able use your home resort booking window.

Totally agree!

 

[nd43]

But I also find it to be so theoretical and subject to so many different variables, that to actually place any stock in it is utter folly.

My 150 points at BWV cost me $6,750. Your 150 points at VGF cost you $22,500. I hate to break it to you, but your points were more expensive.

Actually, my perspective on this is neither novel or creative. It would be folly to ignore it.

For instance, the largest cost of owning a new car is not the payments or the repairs, it is the depreciation. If you purchase a new car "for less" but it depreciates like a rock, in the end, the car will end up costing you far more then a more expensive car that depreciates much less.

So, how would that apply here? Well, you got a great price on BWV. However, if you hold that 20 years and I hold my VGF for 20 years, unless your contract is extended, there is a chance your purchase could depreciate to almost zero. However, my purchase would still have 30 years and might be selling for more then what I paid. So, after 20 years, you might have nothing and I could have a $30k check from my sell of 150 VGF points. Under that scenario, who ultimately paid more for their points?

I am not saying this scenario will happen (it is just an example) but to ignore the important role depreciation plays in a major purchase like this is actually true financial folly.

Given VGF is a small resort in a premiere property with the longest contract life, I like my odds when making a depreciation guess over the next 15-20 years over many other options. Will it be the best? I do not know (probably not). However, I like the odds that it will be better then many other options. Therefore, I believe my final true "cost" of owning these points will be lower then many others and I will have no issue using these points anywhere.

 

[nd43]

This is an important point for people new to DVC to learn. Owning a home resort only gives you an advantage within that 7-11 month window. Once that 7 month window opens up, all points are the same and it doesn't matter if you are using a $150 VGF point or a $60 SSR point to book with they both have access to the same rooms.

And it is for this reason that if you are booking a lot of reservations under 7 months that SSR is one of the best resorts to own based on resale price, MF and contract length.

So if you are paying a premium for your home resort, make sure that you are going to be able use your home resort booking window.

Your home resort also aligns you to a specific resale market. If you are going to eventually sell your points in 10 to 15 years, you need to take an educated guess on the possible resale issues of your home resort based on size, contract expiration, location, etc. If the resale market for your home resort could have serious downside risk in 20 years (older resort with near term contract expiration for instance), those "cheap" points might turn out to be very expensive. It is just a dimension you should consider. What you pay is not the only dimension of how much something ultimately costs if you plan on selling in the future. If you plan to hold until expiration (which I would guess is rare), then you should assume 100% depreciation and buy the lowest price that fits your needs.

 

[e46m3]

The only problem with being a new buyer in any timeshare program is you don't understand the availability until you gain access to the reservation system.

 

[jennylyn_b]

Welcome home! We also purchase direct and we have done so three times now! I don't care what anyone says about direct. We researched or options thoroughly and made the choice that was best for us! And we have not regretted it once for a single moment! We did not purchase DVC to sell it. We purchased it to use it and help offsets our costs and it has done that for us. We now go twice a year 12-15 nights per trip!

Enjoy your points and again welcome.

 

[DougEMG]

The only problem with being a new buyer in any timeshare program is you don't understand the availability until you gain access to the reservation system.

Luckily sites like disboards and http://dvcrequest.com/how_soon_should_i_reserve.htm can give you a good idea about availability.

 

[DougEMG]

Your home resort also aligns you to a specific resale market. If you are going to eventually sell your points in 10 to 15 years, you need to take an educated guess on the possible resale issues of your home resort based on size, contract expiration, location, etc. If the resale market for your home resort could have serious downside risk in 20 years (older resort with near term contract expiration for instance), those "cheap" points might turn out to be very expensive. It is just a dimension you should consider. What you pay is not the only dimension of how much something ultimately costs if you plan on selling in the future. If you plan to hold until expiration (which I would guess is rare), then you should assume 100% depreciation and buy the lowest price that fits your needs.

Fair enough.

One of my key requirements was how much the up front costs were going to be and how long till I break even. I also wanted to make sure I got the maximum points possible with the minimum upfront costs (with WDW resorts only, no VB or HH). My assumption was that I was going to hold till the contracts ended (or give it to my daughter if I became too old and feeble to go anymore).

 

[ELMC]

My 150 points at BWV cost me $6,750. Your 150 points at VGF cost you $22,500. I hate to break it to you, but your points were more expensive.

Given VGF is a small resort in a premiere property with the longest contract life, I like my odds when making a depreciation guess over the next 15-20 years over many other options. Will it be the best? I do not know (probably not). However, I like the odds that it will be better then many other options. Therefore, I believe my final true "cost" of owning these points will be lower then many others and I will have no issue using these points anywhere.

So let's compare apples to apples (or as close as we can get when talking about two different resorts). Let's both spend $22,500 right now. I'll spend it on 150 BWV points and invest the other $15,750 in a mutual fund. You spend your full amount on 150 VGF points. In 30 years we both go to sell our contracts. Mine is worthless because it expired. But I still have the 30 years growth on my $15,750. Your contract is worth whatever you happen to think it might be worth at the time. Assuming a very, very conservative 3% rate of return over 30 years, your contract will have to be worth $254 a point for you to have done as well as I did.

You can talk about future values, depreciation, and cost over time all you want...but it's all theory and is completely unpredictable. Using a 50 year horizon for money you spend today is unrealistic. What's real is what you spend right now. And if you use your VGF points to stay at BWV, you are paying three times as much for a room as I am, which is a deal, really, because your entry cost was actually 3.5 times as much as mine was.

 

[DougEMG]

So let's compare apples to apples (or as close as we can get when talking about two different resorts). Let's both spend $22,500 right now. I'll spend it on 150 BWV points and invest the other $15,750 in a mutual fund. You spend your full amount on 150 VGF points. In 30 years we both go to sell our contracts. Mine is worthless because it expired. But I still have the 30 years growth on my $15,750. Your contract is worth whatever you happen to think it might be worth at the time. Assuming a very, very conservative 3% rate of return over 30 years, your contract will have to be worth $254 a point for you to have done as well as I did.

You can talk about future values, depreciation, and cost over time all you want...but it's all theory and is completely unpredictable. Using a 50 year horizon for money you spend today is unrealistic. What's real is what you spend right now. And if you use your VGF points to stay at BWV, you are paying three times as much for a room as I am, which is a deal, really, because your entry cost was actually 3.5 times as much as mine was.

I'd take the cash every time over the risk of VGF being worth some unknown amount in the future.

 

[nd43]

So let's compare apples to apples

I am not sure you are comparing "apples to apples" when I was talking about the final cost per point across two DVC resorts and you bring in a third party investment that has nothing to do with a timeshare to somehow lower your cost per point.

As far as I know, the person would take the extra money and buy a lifetime of cupcakes, a fancy new depreciating car, or invest in the next Enron. I am not trying to compare a timeshare purchase to a random portfolio investment or other purchase that has its own risk profile not considered in an "apples to apples" comparison.

I am comparing the final "cost per point" paid for two different DVC resorts using the actual purchase price and selling price.

I will use a direct example because I think it will be clear. For instance, buying BWV direct at $135 per point right now, while cheaper then VGF, will most likely result in a much higher final "cost per point" then VGF, simply due to the depreciation of those points in the resale market already. Under your logic (of ignoring depreciation when considering cost per point), the BWV purchase is a "cheaper" price per point, and therefore, a better financial move (I am sure you do not believe this, but this is kinda what you have been asserting with your replies to me - that looking at this crazy thing called depreciation is "folly", etc.). I think you will agree, those BWV points will most likely end up being much more expensive to the buyer then VGF even though the initial price was lower.

If you can see this "direct to direct", the same logic works for everything else. You need to consider depreciation to know your final cost per point. There is a time, in the future, when buying an expiring contract for old resorts, while relatively "cheap" to buy resale, will be far more expensive to actually own given the possible collapse of the resale market for those contracts. Someone will be the "last one holding the bag" on those resale contracts as they approach expiration. Will it happen in 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, who knows? When will the market decide there is not enough time left on the contract to make it worth much?

You do not want to be the last one holding the bag on the resale contract because your depreciation will be 100% (or close to it). Others, who have paid more for new resorts with more time, might have better financial results under that scenario even though they paid more for each point upfront. They are "first in line" with the bag and have the longest time to pass it on to someone else and still get some value back.