just back...too many scooters!

[SueM in MN]

Whoa! There are no brakes on these things??? No wonder there are so many accidents. Maybe we could solve a lot of problems by insisting on brakes?

I suppose someone out there knows why they don't and I would be happy to be enlightened as I've never used one. It just seems surprising to me.

They DO have brakes, but not in the same way as cars have.
When you want to stop a car, you engage the brake by stepping on it (or using a hand control for some people who are disabled). If the motor is on, the car will "creep" forward if you are not using the brake. Without the brake, the car will roll on an incline. So, you really NEED brakes with a car.

Power wheelchairs and ECVs only move when power is being sent to the wheels - using a throttle for the ECV or a joystick for the power wheelchair. When you let go of the joystick or throttle, braking occurs with something called "dynamic braking". The wheelchair or ECV uses the weight of the wheelchair/ecv to help brake it. So, they do have brakes, but they don't have brakes that anyone can "use", it's just part of the driving. They don't stop on a dime though.

Another thing to be aware of is where the driver's head is and what they can see - they are at "butt" level and their view is obstructed. (Sort of like being in a VW Beetle in a highway full of SUVs and semis.)
If someone ahead of them sees an obstacle and slows down or stops, the ECV/wheelchair user didn't see it. The walker may have seen the obstacle quite a while before stopping and wonders why the ECV user didn't see it - well, I don't see too many people with brakes lights in their butts.

Then there is the "body space" problem. People who are not used to driving an ECV or wheelchair have a mental picture of how much space they take up, the amount of space they normally take up. People are not used to having their feet sticking out nearly 2 feet farther than their head. Sort of like if you normally drive a small car and then have to switch to driving a full size van.

There are some people who nshould not be driving ECVs.
- The WDW parks don't rent ECVs for use by children - you are supposed to be over 18. Most of the off-site places are that way too, unless the person is experienced.
- ECVs are meant to be used by one person - the driver, not kids hanging on the back or sitting on the lap of the driver. I have seen people stopped by CMs for doing this because it is dangerous (but, as soon as the CM was mout of sight, the child was back on the lap). CMs have posted that they have confiscated park ECVs from people who continue to do that or drive unsafely.
- Some people don't have the skills or judgement to use an ECV safely. If "Uncle Joe" wouldn't be safe driving a car, he's not safe driving an ecv either. Sometimes people know it's not safe, but no one wants to mention it or tell him it's not a good idea.

A different type of abuse than the OP was talking about, but probably more of a problem.

I do get tired of the judging of who is "disabled" enough to use an ECV. Most people who are doing the judging say "I'm not meaning those who are truely disabled," but unless you live in the body (or live with that person), there is no way to look and see "how" disabled the person is.
Most of us who use or have family members who use ECVs or wheelchairs have heard the comments or seen the stares.
My DD can't walk or even stand up, but we have heard people comment that she "doesn't really need that wheelchair." Even people who can't walk DO get out of their wheelchairs from time to time.

 

[TammyJ]

I know some people think this discussion is pointless, but I really have learned a lot. Thanks Sue for the info on the brakes. And with my new found knowledge of the hoards of these roaming the kingdom and the reminder of the "butt view" level of these masses of people...I'm going to the gym to improve the view so to speak!

 

[lizanne]

And how do we KNOW that the children in those double strollers really NEED to be riding???


and we all know how are fat and lazy babies can be ,i've personally seen some that just lay around and eat , sleep and poop all day and you think they need to ride around????, make those infants crawl and get that baby fat off

I swore I wasn't going to get into this but here goes. Of course BABIES need the strollers, but have you ever looked at some of the children using these strollers. Some of them must be in 2nd or 3rd grade. I have 5 children, all adults now. The first time we took them their ages were 3, 5, 6, 8 and 10, and we have been there every year since so I do know about walking through the parks with young children.

 

[dr2004]

WDW needs to do something. Maybe requiring the user to produce a medical reason or handicapped placard such as those used in parking.

I am sorry but being 200 pounds overweight should not be a valid reason to get a scooter.

What bothers me (and many others I talked to on my trip) are the people who glide through handicapped entrances to avoid lines (and WDW lets the whole group with them line cut), and then ride Space Mountain or Tower of terror, then magically hop out of their scooter and are able to stand for a parade or turkey leg.

I am sorry but if you are able enough to ride those attractions you should also be able to walk. Again, not refering to the legit handicapped/elderly but to the people who rent scooters because they are too lazy to walk.

 

[Amy&Dan]

WDW needs to do something. Maybe requiring the user to produce a medical reason or handicapped placard such as those used in parking.

I am sorry but being 200 pounds overweight should not be a valid reason to get a scooter.

What bothers me (and many others I talked to on my trip) are the people who glide through handicapped entrances to avoid lines (and WDW lets the whole group with them line cut), and then ride Space Mountain or Tower of terror, then magically hop out of their scooter and are able to stand for a parade or turkey leg.

I am sorry but if you are able enough to ride those attractions you should also be able to walk. Again, not refering to the legit handicapped/elderly but to the people who rent scooters because they are too lazy to walk.

This has been debated on this thead for about 13 pages now. Some people are unable to walk the miles a day a Disney trip involves but can stand in a line to eat or watch a parade. Go to the Disablities board or read Sue M.'s (disabilites moderator) post on this thread. Believe me, she knows her stuff on this one. There is no front of the line privilidge for scooters. If you see someone going through it may because they have to go to a separate waiting area and wait sometimes longer. Your attitude is hard nosed and your facts are wrong.

 

[Sammie]

WDW needs to do something. Maybe requiring the user to produce a medical reason or handicapped placard such as those used in parking.

I am sorry but being 200 pounds overweight should not be a valid reason to get a scooter.

What bothers me (and many others I talked to on my trip) are the people who glide through handicapped entrances to avoid lines (and WDW lets the whole group with them line cut), and then ride Space Mountain or Tower of terror, then magically hop out of their scooter and are able to stand for a parade or turkey leg.

I am sorry but if you are able enough to ride those attractions you should also be able to walk. Again, not refering to the legit handicapped/elderly but to the people who rent scooters because they are too lazy to walk.

Thank you.

I really was not going to comment on this again, as I get tired of explaining something over and over.

My point was and is, I am not judging. My comments are based on actual comments overheard by guests abusing the system. I have actually heard guests commenting they are only riding because they are too lazy to walk.

I agree with Dr.2004, and I agree with anyone who said I have no right to judge who or who should not get one. I never tried to.

I simply think if you can't get a medical statement from a doctor stating you need to ride a scooter then you don't need one. If you truly have a medical reason then a doctor should be the proper judge. However very few Doctors I know will tell any overweight person they don't need to walk. And I can guarantee you if a medical statement was required for use of scooters at Disney, there would be fewer used. Which was the reason for this discussion anyway. It was not about who or who should not use them, it was about abusing them.

Edited to state: I do realize you do not get head of the line privileges, I am also all for those that truly need a scooter, but I am not for those abusing the system. And there are abuses.

 

[minnie61650]

WDW needs to do something. Maybe requiring the user to produce a medical reason or handicapped placard such as those used in parking.

I am sorry but being 200 pounds overweight should not be a valid reason to get a scooter.

What bothers me (and many others I talked to on my trip) are the people who glide through handicapped entrances to avoid lines (and WDW lets the whole group with them line cut), and then ride Space Mountain or Tower of terror, then magically hop out of their scooter and are able to stand for a parade or turkey leg.

I am sorry but if you are able enough to ride those attractions you should also be able to walk. Again, not refering to the legit handicapped/elderly but to the people who rent scooters because they are too lazy to walk.

OH NO!!! Here comes round two.
There is no front of the line access with the exception of the Make A Wish children no one gets front of the line. Those in WC/EVC usually wait just as long or longer than the guests in the stand by lines. WC/EVC may be pulled from the mainsteam line part way down so we can board the ride in an
accessable area.EVC's can't climb steps so sometimes we need to take an elevator. Or we may need to board a ride where the riders usually exit in case
we need an accessible vehical or we need the moving sidewalk slowed or stopped so we can board. Depending on how many WC/EVC guest are ahead of us our wait usually just as long if not longer than people who are waiting in the stand by lines.

 

[minnie61650]

Thank you.......
I simply think if you can't get a medical statement from a doctor stating you need to ride a scooter then you don't need one. If you truly have a medical reason then a doctor should be the proper judge. However very few Doctors I know will tell any overweight person they don't need to walk. And I can guarantee you if a medical statement was required for use of scooters at Disney, there would be fewer used. Which was the reason for this discussion anyway. It was not about who or who should not use them, it was about abusing them.

Edited to state: I do realize you do not get head of the line privileges, I am also all for those that truly need a scooter, but I am not for those abusing the system. And there are abuses.

The idea of a Doctors note or HP sticker/placard might sound like a solution to you but as I stated in post #85 on page 6 of this thread:
"I don't think Disney is allowed to ask for a Doctor's note or HP sticker because of the disabilites act."
Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Sammie]

The idea of a Doctors note or HP sticker/placard might sound like a solution to you but as I stated in post #85 on page 6 of this thread:
"I don't think Disney is allowed to ask for a Doctor's note or HP sticker because of the disabilites act."
Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I don't know, but if so, how does one get a HP sticker? Surely you have to have some proof of actual need.

 

[minnie61650]

I don't know, but if so, how does one get a HP sticker? Surely you have to have some proof of actual need.

Yes, I did need proof to get my HP placard and my disability payments from social security but the secretary of state and social security are government agencies so they can request proof. I don't know if an individual or a business can require proof.

 

[DVCLiz]

It does seem to be contradictory, doesn't it, but I think you must have medical proof of need to have a car handicapped hangtag, while requiring the same type of proof in the scooter situation is in direct opposition to ADA rules!!!

It will be interesting to see how this issue develops if the general population ever begins to see obesity as a socially accepted disease condition - as a previous poster mentioned, it has fairly recently been classified as some type of medical condition (can't remember what, though!!). I think most people see it as laziness these days. Then again, in the past, people who cried a good part of the day were often told to "cheer up", before there was any idea that depression existed as a disease.

OK, I'm scooting off to bed now - good night, all!!

 

[Meezers]

I can see both sides of this. I have taken both of my grandparents to WDW over the years, used a wheelchair once and the other time a scooter. Now they really needed to use them so it was not a choice. I found most people oblivious to a scooter being around them and quite often walked in front of it, my grandmother almost hit a couple of people, both times it was not her fault. I think that everyone is so wrapped up in what they are doing and enjoying the day themselves that they just don't notice. On the other hand, I have almost been mowed down a couple of times....and whoa! that was scary, and yet no "sorry" or acknowledgement at all.

It is fantastic that these are available as it was neither trip would have been done by my grandparents without them.

I am not sure what the answers are. I have recently injured my knee and have been on crutches for 13 weeks so far, and I could not tell you how many times I have been knocked over, mowed over, tripped, pushed etc., expecially in a crowd, by people. I would just hope that it is for the same reasons for the most part, I can't imagine that people are that mean spirited.

The part that gets my goat ...is this....pulling up to the shopping mall or place of business, having to park so far away and walk with my crutches to get where I am going. Then out comes someone and practically runs and jumps into their car parked in the handicap spot....oooh, that is maddening. Yes, there are people that don't have outward disabilities, but I believe there is a lot of mismanagement on the priveleges that are given out...IMHO




Oh, by the way, I have had the experience of some very helpful people also since injuring my knee, justed didn't want anyone to think that it has all been bad.

For your own safety please see about getting a temporary handicapped parking permit. I know from personal experience that you can do this in most states.

I spent almost a year in fiberglass from toes to hip....was young and in shape and went everywhere. It was at the mall...Mom had dropped me off and went to park the car....that I was approached by some unsaviorory type people...I was totally defenseless...could not run...could not stand (non weight bearing cast)...very scary. Got the temp permit the next day...please...think about this...

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming

PS...I don't care who uses the darn things...as long as they are polite...which I think is the whole problem...not who uses them for what...but the whole selfish, my life is more important than yours, what I want is paramount....that is what bothers me!

 

[Meezers]

I would think that a HP sticker or a doctor's note would be a prerequisite for renting a scooter. All of the above posters who had legitimate reasons for needing one (even for a temporary condition) would easily be able to get such a note. I'm sure there would still be those that could circumvent the requirements, but even so, these rules might:
a) make more ECVs available for those who really need them
b) reduce the number of people in the parks renting them for fun, thus
c) improving the perceptions of the public towards those who use ECVs.

My sympathies go out towards those who have real physical challenges...it's not fair that those who would abuse the system would put such a stigma on getting a little help to get around.

Good plan!

 

[minnie61650]

Good plan!

My question is: Is the plan to ask for a HP sticker/placard or Doctors note a legal one? I don't think Disney can ask for one because of the Disabilities act. If it were legal I think they would have started requiring them a while ago. They could then also ask for one to rent a WC or a Handicapped accessible room. They could also ask for proof when a guest would like a refrigerator for medial reasons. The list goes on.
Does anyone reading this tread know if Disney even has the right to ask their guests for proof?

 

[WaltD4Me]

a) make more ECVs available for those who really need them

And who exactly would decide this? What would be the determinatin be of "really" needing an ECV be?

My mom has a bad knees, she isn't handicapped, but there is NO WAY she could go to Disney and do all the walking you do there. She just couldn't do it...period. Don't know if she could get a medical excuse from her doctor though...she isn't handicapped in the true sense of the definition, so what? She could never again enjoy Disney?

Maybe I am sensitive because of my mom, but people who get on their high horses about ECV's just BUG me, count your blessings and move on.

 

[kaytieeldr]

My question is: Is the plan to ask for a HP sticker/placard or Doctors note a legal one? I don't think Disney can ask for one because of the Disabilities act. If it were legal I think they would have started requiring them a while ago. They could then also ask for one to rent a WC or a Handicapped accessible room. They could also ask for proof when a guest would like a refrigerator for medial reasons. The list goes on.
Does anyone reading this tread know if Disney even has the right to ask their guests for proof?

To the best of my knowledge, no company can ask for proof that the renter "needs" such equipment. I haven't read the entire ADA rules recently (but yes, I have done it once) but I think it's an invasion of privacy.

What bothers me (and many others I talked to on my trip) are the people who glide through handicapped entrances to avoid lines (and WDW lets the whole group with them line cut), and then ride Space Mountain or Tower of terror, then magically hop out of their scooter and are able to stand for a parade or turkey leg..

Well, for starters, WC/ECV Guests don't glide anywhere - they/we roll.
The wheelchair entrances were NEVER designed to give such Guests faster access to the attractions, but rather straight access. Example: The regular (I think, Disney keeps changing things) lines at Jungle Cruise and Test Track. They weave back and forth and around so much, it's extremely easy to get literally stuck. Now, at JC, I can't step down and up enough to get in and out of the boats. Disney has ONE boat designed for wheelchair access. If that boat is already at the regular boarding area or there's one or more Guests in my situation ahead of me, I have to wait one or more entire ride cycles before I can board. At TT, yes, WC/ECV Guests use the exit. Based on my observation, ONE wheelchair Guest is allowed on the attraction at a time. (I know this is absolute fact at some of the attractions at DisneyLAND).
Disney allows the wheelchair Guest and up to five members of that party to use the wheelchair entrance. What if there are more of you? Well, again at DisneyLand - on Space Mountain I waited in the off-line car with a party of six until the rest of their party made it through the regular line and met up with us. THEN the car was eventually put back inline and we were off. So, yes, they waited EXACTLY the same amount of time as Guests in the regular line, plus. I waited a bit less because I got there after they did.
But while some attractions do have a wheelchair-accessible ride vehicle, most DON'T. You have to be able to transfer. Transfer means get out of the ECV and onto the attraction, or else you can't ride. As for standing to eat a turkey leg (yuck, but that's my opinion), well, I wouldn't want it dripping in my lap. I can STAND, I just can't WALK any great distance without pain.

It does seem to be contradictory, doesn't it, but I think you must have medical proof of need to have a car handicapped hangtag, while requiring the same type of proof in the scooter situation is in direct opposition to ADA rules!!!

The purpose of a handicap plate/placard, and ultimately parking space, is to get the eligible person out of the flow of traffic as quickly as possible - for safety, not necessarily for convenience.

 

[In a hurry]

as you stand by your statement obviously you have no compassion for overweight people or the lazy as you know this and when we go to wdw in 2 weeks i will make sure to tell my wife to look completly miserable just in case you are there

Waltsfan, I would be overjoyed if our paths crossed at WDW. I get so tired of the nasty judgemental attitudes that prevail in our society. If you are old, or imperfect, you are considered a second class citizen. I truly lapologize for any distress my post caused you.

Kathleen

 

[CheshireVal]

My question is: Is the plan to ask for a HP sticker/placard or Doctors note a legal one? I don't think Disney can ask for one because of the Disabilities act. If it were legal I think they would have started requiring them a while ago. They could then also ask for one to rent a WC or a Handicapped accessible room. They could also ask for proof when a guest would like a refrigerator for medial reasons. The list goes on.
Does anyone reading this tread know if Disney even has the right to ask their guests for proof?

I don't know.... if you have to have a doctor's note to get a handicapped parking permit (and I had to do this after foot surgery so I know the procedure), I don't know why it would be such a huge issue to have to show one to rent an ECV. Of course I have sympathy about those who need an ECV (see my very early post about my cancer-stricken Aunt), but if more and more people start renting them for minor reasons (ie, being unfit and tiring easily..... easily rectified by taking breaks throughout the day) then it's going to start becoming a real problem in the parks.

I'm not sure what the ideal solution is, but Disney is going to have to address the problem at some point if the number of ECV users keeps increasking.....

 

[Tigger_Magic]

Disney already addresses the problem because all 4 theme parks have a limited number of ECVs available. The Studios and AK seem to have the fewest, followed by MK and last is Epcot, which seems to offer the most. Even so, there are limited numbers available from Disney. There are, however, lots of companies in Orlando that will deliver/rent a "scooter"/ECV and on our last trip we saw many more of these than we did Disney ECVs.

Maybe this is the root of the "problem" -- there are more off-site ECVs appearing in the parks than before?

 

[SueM in MN]

I don't know.... if you have to have a doctor's note to get a handicapped parking permit (and I had to do this after foot surgery so I know the procedure), I don't know why it would be such a huge issue to have to show one to rent an ECV. Of course I have sympathy about those who need an ECV (see my very early post about my cancer-stricken Aunt), but if more and more people start renting them for minor reasons (ie, being unfit and tiring easily..... easily rectified by taking breaks throughout the day) then it's going to start becoming a real problem in the parks.

I'm not sure what the ideal solution is, but Disney is going to have to address the problem at some point if the number of ECV users keeps increasking.....

And what if they are using their handicapped parking permit to park in the accessible lot?

I think there is a lot of "people who are unfit and tire easily should not be able to rent one" in this thread. My FIL fits that description because of very bad hips and knees. He was afraid to rent one for many years, a lot because of whether or not peoplr would think he was "handicapped enough." He has seen people thru the years look at his GD (my youngest DD, who can't walk at all) and judge her. He felt if people were looking at her like that, what would they do to him?

Two years ago, he finally rented an ECV for one day at Epcot and had his first park day in years where he was not in intense pain with ice on his knees at the end of the day. He got to places he had not seen in years. Without the ECV, he had to look for benches every 100 feet or so (a scarce commodity in some parks), so he often sat on one bench near the entrance while the rest of us walked around the parks.
Is that really what you want people to do?
Why should a stranger be allowed to tell my FIL that he is not allowed to enjoy the parks?