Judge rules on Segway Fairness settlement

Myth - A mobility device must be FDA approved to qualify under ADA.

This is a common misconception. FDA approval has nothing to do with ADA protections. Canes, crutches, walkers, braces, and many ECV’s and scooters are not FDA approved, but are covered under the ADA.

Service dogs are covered under the ADA as well but lack FDA approval.

The 1973 Rehabilitation Act as amended in 1998, in the definitions contained in that act, applicable to every section of that act, including section 504, defined an assistive technology device as "any item, piece of equipment, or product system, whether acquired commercially, modified, or customized, that is used to increase, maintain, or improve functional capabilities of individuals with disabilities."

It is an all encompassing definition and includes all items from Segways to wheelchairs. There is absolutely no definition or mention of any other type of assistive device, including a wheelchair or scooter in the entire 1973 Rehabilitation Act as amended in 1998, nor does there need to be.

FDA approval has nothing to do with legal protections afforded mobility devices under the ADA.
The original poster did not mention anything about ADA or FDA approval. They mention that the manufacturer did not designed nor intend the Segway to be used as a medical assist device! Something completely different than what you criticize the post for.
 
What can a segway do that other disney approved medical devices can not do?

This is one of the things a segway can do.And could you imagen what would happen if Disney allowed these horrible things in the parks were thousands of these nasty children just jump, run and play around?
Wait maybe we could just ban the children for there own safety.:lmao:


A three-year-old San Francisco girl has become the first pedestrian to know what it feels like "when Segways attack."

Toddler Ruby Bleskacek was punished by a Segway rider in a hit-and-run accident on Tuesday. (No, we are not making this up.) The lass sustained cuts, bruises and a blow to the head, according a report from ABC. The child was apparently playing outside her home when the Segway roared by near maximum speed at 10 m.p.h and crashed into her.

"I was quite angry and I confronted him," Joel Bleskacek, the girl's father told ABC. "I asked him why he was driving so fast during the crowded lunch hour on the sidewalk. He claimed my daughter jumped in front of him."

Dxxx jumping girls.

The suspect fled - if you can call it that - the scene. San Francisco police are currently looking for the pxxx who they believe lives in the area. They have requested a list of all Segway owners in the city from Segway LLC.

The fancy scooter is barred from traveling on San Francisco sidewalks, but such laws apparently do not apply to the deviant side of the Segway crowd.


Source: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/11/26/toddler_wounded_in_segway_hitandrun/
 
Disney charges people to use a segway, they have park staff gliding through the park and in direct contact with guests. This will be won by the Segway supporters and if Disney would rather fight and pay the lawyers rather than make more money then so be it.

Now that Johnson and Johnson has ceased production of the iBot wheelchair, there is no agreement preventing the Segway from being marketed as an assistive device. (this is the only reason the segway is not an ADA approved device)

Number one reason that Segways will win is that companies like Honda and Sony are going to market their own version of a Segway like device and people will be using them as mobility enablers.

Live Free and Glide!:woohoo:
 
I'm sorry - but I flat out think that unlimited segways in the park is a hugely bad idea.

Hugely bad.

Unless the Segways brought in by guests can be somehow 'speed limited' by Disney in a manner that the guest/driver CANNOT tamper with - then I cannot see how this will ever be anything other than a huge safety and liability issue for Disney.

Frankly - the Segways can go TOO FAST when not locked down to a lower speed mode. Add to that, Disney staff riding these have been trained and the devices have been speed limited by Disney. And ultimately, the number of Segways in use in any given park at any given time by staff can be counted on the fingers of one hand. That certainly won't be the case with guests.

You simply cannot guarantee those three points when guests are using Segways they brought from home ... riding in the open park.
 

This is one of the things a segway can do.And could you imagen what would happen if Disney allowed these horrible things in the parks were thousands of these nasty children just jump, run and play around?
Wait maybe we could just ban the children for there own safety.:lmao:


A three-year-old San Francisco girl has become the first pedestrian to know what it feels like "when Segways attack."

Toddler Ruby Bleskacek was punished by a Segway rider in a hit-and-run accident on Tuesday. (No, we are not making this up.) The lass sustained cuts, bruises and a blow to the head, according a report from ABC. The child was apparently playing outside her home when the Segway roared by near maximum speed at 10 m.p.h and crashed into her.

"I was quite angry and I confronted him," Joel Bleskacek, the girl's father told ABC. "I asked him why he was driving so fast during the crowded lunch hour on the sidewalk. He claimed my daughter jumped in front of him."

Dxxx jumping girls.

The suspect fled - if you can call it that - the scene. San Francisco police are currently looking for the pxxx who they believe lives in the area. They have requested a list of all Segway owners in the city from Segway LLC.

The fancy scooter is barred from traveling on San Francisco sidewalks, but such laws apparently do not apply to the deviant side of the Segway crowd.


Source: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/11/26/toddler_wounded_in_segway_hitandrun/
Not only do the Segways have this potential but some of the scooters can be pretty dangerous. I witnessed an elderly woman in DHS ram an endcap in a store pretty hard. She had two small children in the scooter with her. She came close to clipping me as she hit the "gas" a little to hard. Maybe to get one of these devices people need to take a driver ed course and carry a license. I know that I won't walk near my mom when she uses a scooter in the store. Dang the lady is dangerous!
 
Not only do the Segways have this potential but some of the scooters can be pretty dangerous. I witnessed an elderly woman in DHS ram an endcap in a store pretty hard. She had two small children in the scooter with her. She came close to clipping me as she hit the "gas" a little to hard. Maybe to get one of these devices people need to take a driver ed course and carry a license. I know that I won't walk near my mom when she uses a scooter in the store. Dang the lady is dangerous!

I saw a half asleep elderly gentleman ram the tea shoppe in england at full bore... bounce off, and proceed to hit it three more times before realizing his error. Had it been a small child? yuck.
 
1) A person with a disability on a Segway can see better - IE: at eye level.

2) They can also be seen better by others.

3) The Segway has zero turning radius making it far more manuverable than other mobility devices.

4) The Segway has a very small footprint - about the same space as an adult human standing.

5) The Segway excels in navigating confined spaces such as hallways, restrooms and elevators.

6) The Segway comes closer than any other mobility device to replicating walking.

7) The Segway can travel up to 24 miles on a single charge allowing a full day of usage without requiring a re-charge.

8) The Segway was designed to safely interact with pedestrians in crowded environments.

9) People with disabilities don't "look" disabled when using a Segway. (This bothers some people).

10) Segways are easier to transport than other larger mobility devices.

11) Segways take up less physical space than other mobility devices.

12) Segways can handle a wide variety of slopes and terrain better than other mobility devices. IE: Hills, grass, dirt, gravel etc...

13) Standing on a Segway is far healthier than sitting. Better for many body functions...circulation, respiration, bone density, muscular tone, etc...

14) The Segways control system requires a very low level of manual dexterity. Hand controls on many mobility devices are not usable by some with disabilities.

15) The Segways speed is infinitely variable from zero to the speed setting utilized. Many mobility devices are either full-on or full-off, making manuvering in confined or crowded spaces difficult. IE: You have to "trigger" the throttle to modulate the speed.


I appreciate your passion for what you seem is an injustice, I truly do. But I think you're arguements would carry a lot more weight if you didn't just copy of bunch of talking points from Segway International.

I guess my opinion on this is that Disney offers an alternative that is completly safe and reliable (motorized scotter). Since Disney is responsible for the safety of it's guests then they have the right to determine what is and isn't safe when it comes to mobility devices. You of course have the choice not to go to Disney if they won't let you use your Segway.
 
I appreciate your passion for what you seem is an injustice, I truly do. But I think you're arguements would carry a lot more weight if you didn't just copy of bunch of talking points from Segway International.
My comments were things I thought about in response to a previous question asking how a Segway is better than the Disney offered alternatives. The list I posted has been based on my experiences over time working with the Segs4Vets program and observing/training the recipients (which now total over 350).

I am not a Segway employee or Segway dealer and the Segs4Vets program receives no financial support from Segway. This list I posted was my own thoughts and ideas and not something developed by Segway.

The Segway, as a mobility device, isn't for everyone. Some are just unable to use it due to their type or level of injury. For those that can use it, it is like a "magic carpet" and has transformed their lives in ways difficult to imagine without seeing it first-hand.

It is very rewarding to be there (at the training sessions) and see the transformation that takes place when a recipient realizes that it will give them back a certain level of mobility they thought was lost forever.

They just don't want to go back into a wheelchair or ECV and will not visit places that won't accommodate their Segway.
 
Someone owns a Segway Franchise . . . . .

All these facts are great but as long as WDW is complying with current ADA laws it is a moot point . . . . I also think it is just another case of people wanting to say "look at me ". . . . .

How about a lawyer with an agenda?
 
That is their choice, and not dispositive as to whether an offered accomdation is reasonable.

sorry massjester just using this as an example of the quotes here.

I have read all the pages on this thread and wondered. How many of these people drive cars? If you do why? There are bikes. It is offered as a reasonable form of transportation and look at all the damage cars are doing to our earth. You say progress. Ah yes progress. Was it nice when you could get into a car and not have to peddle.
Just because there are other reasonable accomadations doesn't mean that we should stop progress. Segways are just a better way of helping people with disabilities get around. You say there are crowds. Yep. Have you all driven in rush hour traffic. Cars mow down little girls all the time!!!! Kill them too. Girl vs Car guess who wins. Ban those horrible cars. No instead we call them "accidents" Accidents happen right.
I see alot of scared people here that don't want progress. We wonder why america doesn't move forward. Too many people happy to live with now.
 
For the record, the OP has posted often in relation to Segways, but was also active (in the past, not so much recently) in giving general advice for people with disabilities on the disABILITIES Board. I do not always agree with his stand on Segways, but when he has presented it on the disABILITIES Board, he was always respectful of others' viewpoints.

I think (and have said in posts in the past) that Disney is probably not that worried about the small numbers of people with disabilities who may bring their own Segways into the parks. They would (in general) be well trained and comfortable in use of their device in the same way that people who bring their own ECVs and own power wheelchairs are. There would be some special challenges connected to Segways in the parks (more about that later). But, once Disney allows people with disabilities to bring their own Segways into the parks, they would have to allow anyone who says they are disabled to bring one in. That, I think, is their bigger concern.

I think Disney is very worried about the off-site companies that would inevitably spring up to provide Segways for anyone to rent and bring into the parks. This would be the same way that companies sprung up to rent ECVs. The Disney park ECVs are governed to a very slow speed. The off-site rental ones are much faster. Same thing would happen with Segways - just looking around the internet, I saw some tour companies of big cites that advertised "we don't limit you to 'turtle speed' like some companies do. Segways are meant to be fun and we allow the full 12.5 miles per hour the Segway is capable of going." That would probably happen with WDW area Segway rentals too.

Some of the ECV companies require a 'face to face' delivery so that they can make sure the user is familiar with what they need to know to safely drive an ECV in the park. The majority of companies just drop the ECV off at Bell Services for pick up by the renter.
I don't know what similar companies renting out Segways would do as far as training, but I have a feeling that the training would vary a lot in quality. I think this is what Disney is worried about more than a few people with disbilities using their own Segways in the parks.

There ARE a lot of safety considerations for using a Segway - the Segway company has a safety video for all new users that includes a lot of warnings about always wearing a helmet (no other 'mobility device' includes advice to wear a helmet). The video also includes a lot of stick figures falling down as they do things that put the Segway in danger of tipping them off.
On page 116 of the pdf of the same safety manual, it says:
"Until you can ride with this precision, do not attempt to ride in any area where you might encounter children, pedestrians, pets, vehicles, bicycles, or other obstacles and potential hazards."
I wonder how many people renting from an off-site place will actually have enough training to 'ride with precision' before they go into the parks where they will be meeting lots of 'potential hazards'?
Also, on page 130 of the pdf Getting Started Manual (page 112 on the bottom of the page), it says:
"The SegwayPT has not been designed, tested or approved as a medical device. You must be able to step on and off the SegwayPT unassisted, which requires physical abilities similar to ascending and descending stairs without assistance, and without holding the handrail. "
The Segway is self balancing for front to back, but can tip over sideways if the user is not keeping it balanced. (this is from page 75 of the pdf of the Segway Getting Started Manual). If the Segway gets into a shut down situation, the rider has a few seconds to get off safely.
But, renting from an off-site company, how many people will rent a Segway when they don't have those abilities? What about Grandpa with bad knees who doesn't want to look disabled, so won't rent an ECV, but needs to 'rock' to get out of a chair and grabs onto the stair rails for dear life to go up a step. Will he rent a Segway anyway? If he does, will he be able to get on and off safely?
And, what about someone who doesn't have side to side balance, will they still rent one, even thought they don't have some of skills needed to use one safely?

I have gone on the Segway tour at Epcot 3 times and all 3 times someone fell off and several people also avoided a fall when their Segway got away from them and they did not know how to stop. This was after almost an hour inside practicing different manouvers AND our Segways were limited to the slowest speed AND, we were riding in a closed part of the park (WS before it opened).

There are quite a few posts on the DIS Boards where people are complaining about guests they think are using an ECV for 'convenience'. THere are enough negatives to using an ECV, that I think few people actually rent one unless they need it (either because they can't walk the distance involved in WDW or because they will be in extreme pain if they walk the distance).
ECVs are not 'cool'; Segways are. I can see people renting Segways just for a 'cool' way to get around.
Putting a lot of inexperienced Segway riders who can go at high speeds in the parks is asking for trouble (especially ones who are 'cool' and overconfident - they tended to be the ones who got out of control on my tours).

There is a difference between riding a Segway in an open area like a mall and at WDW where people are constantly getting on and off of attractions. (although there are other dangers, like theft detection systems).
(page 63 [the number on the bottom of the page is 45] of the Segway Getting Started Manual)
"Theft detection systems, such as the type used in some libraries and retail stores can interfere with the Segway PT’s ability to balance and/or cause the Segway PT to perform a Safety Shutdown. Do not ride within 5 feet (1.5 meters) of any theft detection system."
Indoor shopping malls usually have a lot of flat open space (no curbs) and the entries to shops are wide, tall and most don't have any door to open.
Except for check out in really busy times, it's unlikely that anyone would be in line behind other shoppers, hardly moving.

WDW has lots of areas with curbs and curb cuts as part of the street theming - not a problem for an experienced Segway user, but could be trouble for an inexperienced one.
WDW buildings are mostly themed with 'normal architectural' doors like these from Pinocchio's Village Haus
Pinocchio-Village-Haus_00.JPG


Most shops and restaurants have doors like this which may or may not be open. Again, a veteran user would likely be prepared for low hanging signs and low doors, but an inexperienced user would not. (On the tours, despite being warned, several riders hit into things like tree branches and hanging pots that would normally be over the heads of guests who were walking, but could be at head level for guests standing 9 inches higher on the Segway deck.

And, then, what do you do with the Segway for rides?
Wheelchairs and ECVs will stand on their own when the rider gets off - Segways only stand up when someone is standing on them. When off, they need to be leaned against a wall (I know some have parking stands, but my understanding is that is an option). ECVs and wheelchairs will stay standing whether someone is in it or not.

What about shows?
Wheelchairs and ECVs are sometimes parked in the front row - Segway users standing in the front row would block the view of guests behind them, so they would need to do something else. Parked in the back (which is where wheelchair and ECV users are for some shows anyway) would not be a problem. If the Segway user switches to a theater seat, what about the Segway? Where would it park?

What about rides with moving walkways?
Wheelchair and ECV users can bring their mobiliity device onto the moving walkway, park it and get into the ride car. Segways could not go on the moving walkway, so how would they handle it?

If people using Segways can't use their Segway with the things WDW has in place to meet the needs of people who are using wheelchairs, ECVs, walkers, canes, etc , does WDW need to change everything to make it accessible to this small group?
And, there are groups of blind people who are against Segways because they find Segways to be a particular hazard to them because the Segways move quickly and are virtually silent, meaning that blind people are not aware of the Segway.

So, it's not as easy a question as it appears at first glance.
 
Sue,

You bring up some great points and I do see a number of issues you raise as well.

Many of the concerns revolve around someone who is not proficient in using a Segway or that may not really need to use one and are just trying to "game" the system.

Easy rentals without proper training can be problems with Segways or ECV's as you pointed out. And a Segway (or ECV) may not be the right tool depending on an individuals level and type of disability.

Maybe a requirement that the individual actually own their Segway (IE: not allow rentals) for access could be a potential solution. I don't think the "gamers" are going to run out (pun intended) and pay $6,000 to purchase a new Segway for a day of goofing around in the parks.

They could also demonstrate their proficiency level in the training area already in-place at Epcot to the satisfaction of the Disney staff.

The small number of people that actually own them and use them everyday as a qualifying mobility device isn't a huge number. The chances of even seeing one at a park on any given day is quite remote.

Although I believe that most of the issues you brought-up are not insurmountable, many are valid concerns that need to (and I think can) be addressed.

Thanks for a well thought-out post.
 
Thank you
Maybe a requirement that the individual actually own their Segway (IE: not allow rentals) for access could be a potential solution. I don't think the "gamers" are going to run out (pun intended) and pay $6,000 to purchase a new Segway for a day of goofing around in the parks.

They could also demonstrate their proficiency level in the training area already in-place at Epcot to the satisfaction of the Disney staff.
But, both of those things would put Disney out of compliance with the ADA, so they are between a rock and a hard place.
If they allow them in as a mobility device, they have to allow them in for anyone who says they need one as a mobility device.
And, the ADA says they can't subject people to needing to prove proficiency of their equipment as a condition of bringing it in.

So, it still boils down to, if Disney allows any in, they have to allow all in (unless they end up with some sort of agreement to settle a lawsuit that allows that, but I would expect people who did not want those 'rules' would sue).
 
Seems to me that people did just fine without them before they were invented . . . . .
 
Just because there are other reasonable accomadations doesn't mean that we should stop progress. Segways are just a better way of helping people with disabilities get around.
In what way are Segways a better way for people with disabilities to get around? They're not safer, they're more expensive, insurance won't pay for them, etc. I can continue my list but I think you get my point that they're definitely not a better way for people with disabilities to get around. They are a different way for some people with certain disabilities to get around. Not a very good argument no matter how you look at it.

By the way as a point of reference I am disabled and use an electrical wheelchair to get around.
 
In what way are Segways a better way for people with disabilities to get around? They're not safer, they're more expensive, insurance won't pay for them, etc. I can continue my list but I think you get my point that they're definitely not a better way for people with disabilities to get around. They are a different way for some people with certain disabilities to get around. Not a very good argument no matter how you look at it.

By the way as a point of reference I am disabled and use an electrical wheelchair to get around.

I understand your position....but if you could use a Segway, I believe you might have a different perspective.
 


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