Jon and Kate Plus 8, Official Thread--Part 7

[DMRick]

I just saw the Duggars, when they took the whole group to Dollywood, and I wanted to shout...no, stay at home, and show your life (if you have to) from there.

Is that their bus or TLC's? Nice bus to travel in. They met Dolly (who says she watches them all the time, because she was from a family of 12) who just loves them. I was surprised to see them hand her a book about their family. I didn't realize one had just come out. Then they sang together (great experience for the kids, I guess) and took pictures.

When the Pigeon Forge music group started to shout out, stay tune for more of (or something like that)...my mind finished for them, and I thought they were going to say More of K & J LOL! I was surprised on one of the rides when they were told to keep their hands on the steering wheels, that they still lifted them in the air LOL. Must have been that black sheep cousin and their aunt (they must have taken extra's with them to help keep everyone together).

Funny when they made fun of Sean (one of TLC's people) for not going on the ride, that he had a journal, and wrote in it, Duggar's made fun of me LOL. Maybe he's saving notes for HIS book

I wonder if they will be doing more traveling as able, between babies.

 

[DMRick]

Her mother said all this over a month ago and Jon is still around! Can't they come up with any new material? When did Jon and Hailey break up?

Must have been for the night he was with supposed to be with Stephanie. Or last night after the interview LOL.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I just saw the Duggars, when they took the whole group to Dollywood, and I wanted to shout...no, stay at home, and show your life (if you have to) from there.

Is that their bus or TLC's?

It belongs to them--paid for in cash. It was purchased from a school hockey team that was getting rid of it. But it cost like $16,000 or something like that.

But it does belong to the family.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I

I wonder if they will be doing more traveling as able, between babies.

They already have done a number of trips. (Dollywood was just a day trip as it was only 2 hours away or something like that...or at least I thought. Maybe not.)


After the latest was born in December of 2008--they went to a Christian Movie Festival--they hadn't planned on it b/c Jordyn wasn't supposed to be born--but then she was born early and Michelle felt great, so they went.

They did a summer trip to visit the Bates to build their house--went on to some place to visit the Amish and then went to DC.

Also--when Josh and Anna's baby was born--the family was many hours away in Texas and Michelle and Jessa (I think it was her) had to fly home and the rest of the family didn't get back for 2 days.

So yes--they do travel between babies.

 

[walden]

I'm back--I couldn't resist.


I never thought either party as a villain. I think Kate catches too much grief and the inappropriate label of "abusive". I think she is mean at times and feel that much of her behavior was due to some issues with Jon, so I understood why she was that way.

It doesn't make her behavior "appropriate" by any stretch--but understandable.

I always felt that painting Jon as the poor hapless abused victim was only a measure against Kate without truly understanding anything about Jon's personality (and why the "armchair diagnosis" bugs the crap out of me.)


I stand by my theory--that Jon was immature in Kate's world and has stepped into the flip side where he is the more mature partner (theoretically speaking) and is getting a taste of how he was with Kate. Though--an immature female will be much different from an immature male. But I am sure his frustrations with what's her name--are very on par with the frustrations Kate had with him.

It doesn't paint Kate in a better light--but deep down, I'm feeling pretty good about my observations that I have had to date.

B/c though I haven't proven them all--it really seems as though Jon has my back and keeps doing things that now coincide with what my observations have been and continue to be.

Is Kate the hero in all of this? Not by a long shot. She made many mistakes. However--she continues to not be a villain in my observations.

On a "what happened note"--

I'd have to review court docs again to see when seasons end and begin...

But the wedding vows were at the end of one season, weren't they? The new house was the new season.

I would think somewhere in there that Jon's resentful ways about being tied to the show probably popped through more.

I mean--I don't think he was a whipping boy/victim. Abuse victims don't have the manpower to say "Pull that stick out of..." or whatever he said to Kate on that one day when he got sick of her being controlling.

So there is more than we have seen of Jon Gosselin--I have no doubt about that. Was that what caused KAte to file? I don't know--but she said a lot of things about doing what was best and about protecting her family.....maybe Hailey hasn't been the only one on the receiving end of mantrums.

I don't see Kate and Jon as villains either. I see them as victims. The children are the real victims though.

But there is a real villain in this mix. TLC and "Reality TV."

In the very early episodes we saw a couple bickering and managing under stress. Not in a very nice way, but with some humor and balance. That tit-for-tat stuff. A very involved and supportive Dad, and a functional but rather neurotic Mom. A Mom with control issues. A Mom who admitted to control issues.

Actually a Momma Tiger, but still able to control it. Somewhat. A Mom that apparently alienated or fired numerous volunteers and nursing help.

Somewhere (I think in Season 3?) we saw Kate, and Kate's genuinely nasty streak that came out under stress, encouraged because it was "good TV" for her to berate Jon.

With that encouragement she tipped the scales and became emotionally abusive. Jon gradually shut down. What he is today (and he is fairly ugly) is probably the result of that abuse.

For those that want to challenge me on this please subject yourself to a marathon. If you can't see the dynamics change, and the abuse escalating, I despair.

When I look at the situation today I just shake my head. It is such a mess and 8 small children are suffering.

So, finally, my take on Hailey: Hailey, sweetie, run for your life! This is a mess that no young woman in her early 20s should volunteer for. There are a lot of nice young men out there who do not have Jon Gosselin's baggage. Go find them, go to college, find better aspirations than being a footnote in the Gosselin case.

And while you are running please hold this thought -- spilling your guts on TV for cash is just plain tacky. I'm not sure I want to give you the benefit of the doubt any longer.

Just my 2 cents for today.

Where is that 12 step program?

 

[DMRick]

It belongs to them--paid for in cash. It was purchased from a school hockey team that was getting rid of it. But it cost like $16,000 or something like that.

But it does belong to the family.

$16,000 is pretty cheap for a bus like that. It's really nice. I guess I didn' tpay much attention when they mentioned they bought a bus. I just assumed it was a much smaller one. This one is hugh.

I guess I don't watch it often enough to realize they did much more than church camp, visiting church friends, etc. I thought on one of the Duggar threads, someone said they weren't like J & K..they didn't take trips and say it was an experience the kids might not have had, but Michelle said that too..she was glad the kids had this experience. I wonder if Dolly would have greeted any family like this, just because of their size, or if it's because they are on TV.

Dollywood is in TN..are the Duggar's just a couple of hours from there?


Did you know they had written a book? Another thing I missed.

 

[DMRick]

With that encouragement she tipped the scales became emotionally abusive. Jon gradually shut down. What he is today is probably the result of that abuse.

For those that want to challenge me on this please subject yourself to a marathon. If you can't see the dynamics change, and the abuse escalating, I despair.

I don't think a person here wants to challenge you. I just think some of us don't agree with you. This is your opinion. No challenging that. It's what you believe. Just like everyone here has opinions. Some similar or the same as yours, some not so much. No sense despairing.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Somewhere (I think in Season 3?) we saw Kate, and Kate's genuinely nasty streak that came out under stress, encouraged because it was "good TV" for her to berate Jon.

With that encouragement she tipped the scales and became emotionally abusive. Jon gradually shut down. What he is today (and he is fairly ugly) is probably the result of that abuse.

For those that want to challenge me on this please subject yourself to a marathon. If you can't see the dynamics change, and the abuse escalating, I despair.

I can see why you would have the opinion.


I simply cannot agree. I have watched the show for years and I do know of the dynamics change of which you speak.

But too many things that Jon did--are not characteristic things that an abuse victim does. It would be something someone who's getting sick of being bossed around---but not a victim. ("Stick out of your...." His reaction to the Toys R Us incident--don't blame him....but not what a victim does. His little jabs at Kate that she will later see on the show.)

Victims learn to conceal their feelings and hide them...otherwise it will get worse. Sure her behavior got worse--but Jon does not regress like a victim.

And far too much editing for us to say with certainty, that Jon was not party to this escalation.

Abuse victims also don't have public interviews crying abuse (Hailee) while they are still enduring the abuse.
It just doesn't happen.

But I doubt we've witnessed any abuse. Lots of mistreatment--but none that fit "abuse".


***I'm not challenging you---but clarifying my position.

 

[walden]

I don't think a person here wants to challenge you. I just think some of us don't agree with you. This is your opinion. No challenging that. It's what you believe. Just like everyone here has opinions. Some similar or the same as yours, some not so much. No sense despairing.

My dear, I do despair. Not because people do not agree with me, because I am used to that. I have dealt with and battled domestic violence issues for a long time.

I have moments of despair because so many people still excuse abusive behaviour and some people stand on their heads and turn sumersaults in their attempts to excuse it.

However, even in my despairing moments, I try to focus on tiny successes and they keep me going. Apparently, some people (even in the media) are beginning to agree with my opinions on Jon and Kate.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

$16,000 is pretty cheap for a bus like that. It's really nice. I guess I didn' tpay much attention when they mentioned they bought a bus. I just assumed it was a much smaller one. This one is hugh.

I guess I don't watch it often enough to realize they did much more than church camp, visiting church friends, etc. I thought on one of the Duggar threads, someone said they weren't like J & K..they didn't take trips and say it was an experience the kids might not have had, but Michelle said that too..she was glad the kids had this experience. I wonder if Dolly would have greeted any family like this, just because of their size, or if it's because they are on TV.

Dollywood is in TN..are the Duggar's just a couple of hours from there?


Did you know they had written a book? Another thing I missed.

I believe it was more of a logistics issue of transporting that many people.

I believe that it can be arranged for VIP guests to meet Dolly....

Much like how VIP guests get special treatment at WDW with special meet and greets and an escort to tour them around (and in some cases, I'm sure they can get bumped in the line. I just don't think a famous person will get stuck waiting for 90 minutes for Space Mountain.)

I did know about the book. I forget when it was released, but I do think it was in the past year.


You know--maybe they aren't a couple of hours--I think I am thinking of their Branson trip. That trip was a daytrip and they went to an old town theme park type place. They didn't take the bus on that trip. They caravaned in their various SUVs.

They have a mini-bus that they use locally when they all want to travel in one vehicle. I have never seen them travel in that, though.

The Duggars live in Northern Arkansas. Dollywood is in East Tennessee--certainly too far for a daytrip. I think it takes nearly the day to get there.

 

[C.Ann]

I don't think Jon was "abused" during his marriage, but he was definitely "controlled".. There is no getting around the fact that Kate is - for lack of a better phrase - a "control freak"..

The behavior we're seeing from Jon now (not condoning it at all) is someone going totally wild after they are no longer under the thumb of the "controller".. Hopefully it will be short lived and his rebellion will come to a halt..

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

And while you are running please hold this thought -- spilling your guts on TV for cash is just plain tacky. I'm not sure I want to give you the benefit of the doubt any longer.

I agree.

I'm not giving anyone the BOD--I just have an evolving opinion and everytime Jon opens his mouth--it "helps" my opinion.

Of course--I just know the same happens for Kate. But I never said she was perfect.

And I avoid these interviews. I just read about them here.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I don't think Jon was "abused" during his marriage, but he was definitely "controlled".. There is no getting around the fact that Kate is - for lack of a better phrase - a "control freak"..

The behavior we're seeing from Jon now (not condoning it at all) is someone going totally wild after they are no longer under the thumb of the "controller".. Hopefully it will be short lived and his rebellion will come to a halt..

I don't dispute the above.

But saying these horrible things to Hailee--is a form of rebellion?

Do you think he is controlling her on purpose (as part of that rebellion)?

I was thinking more that she's immature and he doesn't like that. And of course his stress level I Am sure is through the roof and the worst of Hailee's concerns would be which Jimmy Choos will go with her Prada purse.

 

[C.Ann]

I don't dispute the above.

But saying these horrible things to Hailee--is a form of rebellion?

Do you think he is controlling her on purpose (as part of that rebellion)?

I was thinking more that she's immature and he doesn't like that. And of course his stress level I Am sure is through the roof and the worst of Hailee's concerns would be which Jimmy Choos will go with her Prada purse.

Sorry, I slacked off on this thread for a bit.. What did he say to Hailee and is there some kind of video or something that shows him actually saying these things?

I read her version - on another thread - but if we're only going on her word alone, then it's nothing more than a "he said/ she said" situation.. Was there a link or something on this thread? For a few days I was having a problem with my computer and couldn't open any links.. Maybe I missed Jon talking somewhere..

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Sorry, I slacked off on this thread for a bit.. What did he say to Hailee and is there some kind of video or something that shows him actually saying these things?

I read her version - on another thread - but if we're only going on her word alone, then it's nothing more than a "he said/ she said" situation.. Was there a link or something on this thread? For a few days I was having a problem with my computer and couldn't open any links.. Maybe I missed Jon talking somewhere..

I'm just going on hearsay based on this interview that she did and she is claiming emotional abuse.


I had heard that he has since apologized.

I'm just going on that theory of why he'd treat her like that and since you mentioned him controlling Hailee--I was just discussing a different kind of scenario that I was considering what is happening.

I understand his rebellion--I don't understand how if what Hailee says took place is true...how that would be rebellion.

 

[madge]

We all seem to agree Jon is crazy ...we do not agree why.

Could Kate have been dealing with this Jon when all this went down? For the sake of augment it was Oct to Jan (or what ever date you like) when it seems the marriage was in real trouble

Does it make her less the villain in anyone's eyes if she was dealing with this crazy Jon?

The big question in my mind is did Kate end it in Oct 2008 & why.

I'm not sure what I believe really went down. One of the big pieces in the puzzle for me is the timing of purchase of the house. They came home from Hawaii in August, and they moved into the new house before Christmas (late November?). That's a span of about 3 months (give or take a week) between when they got home and bought the house. Closing typically take 45 days. So in my mind, they were house hunting before things went south in the relationship. Allegedly, when the family moved to the new house, Jon went straight to living in the apartment over the garage. If that is true, then I believe the marriage was in trouble in October. Was it started by Kate? Maybe. We'll never know.

I don't think Jon was behaving this erratically last year, at the time of the move.

I also can't help but wonder if TLC has any involvement with the purchase of the house... not that it has anything to do with anything, but I'm curious about that.

Does it make her less of a villian to me if Jon was behaving this way? No. The reasons I don't care for Kate have little or nothing to do with her relationship with Jon.

 

[madge]

$16,000 is pretty cheap for a bus like that. It's really nice. I guess I didn' tpay much attention when they mentioned they bought a bus. I just assumed it was a much smaller one. This one is hugh.

I guess I don't watch it often enough to realize they did much more than church camp, visiting church friends, etc. I thought on one of the Duggar threads, someone said they weren't like J & K..they didn't take trips and say it was an experience the kids might not have had, but Michelle said that too..she was glad the kids had this experience. I wonder if Dolly would have greeted any family like this, just because of their size, or if it's because they are on TV.

Dollywood is in TN..are the Duggar's just a couple of hours from there?


Did you know they had written a book? Another thing I missed.

I think they got a nice price on the bus and then renovated it themselves ... I might be wrong about that, though.

Pigeon Forge is farther than 2 hours from the Duggars. Way farther. LOL.

I did know about the book -- they mentioned it on The Today Show.

 

[MAKmom]

$16,000 is pretty cheap for a bus like that. It's really nice. I guess I didn' tpay much attention when they mentioned they bought a bus. I just assumed it was a much smaller one. This one is hugh.

I guess I don't watch it often enough to realize they did much more than church camp, visiting church friends, etc. I thought on one of the Duggar threads, someone said they weren't like J & K..they didn't take trips and say it was an experience the kids might not have had, but Michelle said that too..she was glad the kids had this experience. I wonder if Dolly would have greeted any family like this, just because of their size, or if it's because they are on TV.

Dollywood is in TN..are the Duggar's just a couple of hours from there?


Did you know they had written a book? Another thing I missed.

They have been all over the country on the show. They went on a road trip for a few weeks last year. There was a WDW show too.

If they are not traveling far they are doing cool things. They went sky diving & did paint ball in one show.

 

[MAKmom]

I'm not sure what I believe really went down. One of the big pieces in the puzzle for me is the timing of purchase of the house. They came home from Hawaii in August, and they moved into the new house before Christmas (late November?). That's a span of about 3 months (give or take a week) between when they got home and bought the house. Closing typically take 45 days. So in my mind, they were house hunting before things went south in the relationship. Allegedly, when the family moved to the new house, Jon went straight to living in the apartment over the garage. If that is true, then I believe the marriage was in trouble in October. Was it started by Kate? Maybe. We'll never know.

I don't think Jon was behaving this erratically last year, at the time of the move.

I also can't help but wonder if TLC has any involvement with the purchase of the house... not that it has anything to do with anything, but I'm curious about that.

Does it make her less of a villian to me if Jon was behaving this way? No. The reasons I don't care for Kate have little or nothing to do with her relationship with Jon.

Didn't Jon make a stink about Kate putting a deadbolt on their bedroom door. I thought he couldn't get his clothes. If he was in the apartment this does not make sense. Maybe if he was out drinking & coming home at 2:00 he would go to the apartments on those nights.

 

[PixieDust32]

I heard that they show will end in November?