Jim Hill's the Man!! Say what???

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Captain Crook

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Very interesting article by Hill on DCA...Positive! He says a lot of what I've woefully tried to articulate about DCA going forward...Well, read the article and we'll talk...
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Having never been there, I'm anxiously awaiting my friend DisDucks review, but the parrellell that Hill paries with MGM at its infancy is how I have always looked at it. Sure DCA isn't good, but there IS some good to build on and if Disney's heart is in it, it could be a great place to visit in 8-10 years - Which is better than just closing it down, IMO.

What do you guys think?
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I am in total agreement. It's no Disneyland, but what is?

I took the family last February, and even though it was raining cats and dogs and so several things were closed, there was still a full days worth of attractions to keep us busy. Luckily, my daughter was just barely 42", so she could go on Grizzly and Soaring, and my son was just barely 48", so he could go on Screaming and the Orange Stinger. I wouldn't recommend it for people with children under 42", but otherwise, it's a good time.

Sure it could use improvement, but it's a good start, and for me it's much better than Six Flags Magic Mountain. I'll be there the week after DisDuck's going (11/13 to 11/17) to hit the things we missed the last time.
 
Very clearly A certain Pirate has Kidnapped Mr. Hill and is holding him on his evil Pirate ship (I have inside info after all, I'm a pirate too.)

Right now, Landbaron is committing Hari Kari (second time I used that this week) as Hill betrays everything Landbaron stands for by saying that the Mouse and (shudder) Eisner will make DCA into as good a park as MGM and that that's a good thing.


I like the scoop patiently await Another Voice's take on this. This is certainly a different notion then what I've understood him and others to voice.
 
Scoop, fellow posters Gary & Mod Sarangel have also been to DCA...Maybe they'll weigh in as well.

It is intersting that we live in the moment on these issues, I think in large part because of the internet. Remember DL was no where near complete when it opened (but it was so unlike anything else it didn't matter). It took MK a few years to hit its stride & of course MGM and there is also AK. I think suffice to say it will "become" coplete in the years to come as well.

As to Hill's location...I don't know, Peter Pirate has gone incommunicado, perhpaps Yoho will hear more throught the pirate grapevine!
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CAPTAIN!!!! If you please!!

We all have certain jobs to do here at the DIS. Some moderate. Some argue. Some enlighten. Some are wrong all the time!! And some dig up Hill articles for the group!! That's my job!! And that means I get to choose which articles are shared, and more importantly, WHICH ARE NOT!!!! Kindly go back to your old job of being wrong all the time and let me handle the Hill articles!! Thanks!! ;)
Right now, Landbaron is committing Hari Kari
Isn't he the guy that used to do the Cubs games?
as Hill betrays everything Landbaron stands for
I'm personally blaming the Terrorists!! It has got to be some sort of foreign plot!!!

Or maybe, just maybe, he's setting us up for a "If only they would have done what they said they would" kind of piece a year from now!! HA!! That's it!! He's setting us up!! MY GOD!! He is a genius!!!
Eisner will make DCA into as good a park as MGM and that that's a good thing.
Not really. I know I'll offend a whole bunch of people but I personally consider MGM to be at the very bottom of the Disney food chain. And that stupid hat certainly doesn't help matters!!
I, like the scoop, patiently await Another Voice's
I too. He is the Voice of reason.

Quick AV!!! Help!! I need some spin and I need it now!!! The ceremonial tea is almost ready!!
 
Wait a minute – last week everyone around here was saying that Mr. Hill was an uninformed, unreliable, misinformed, hate-spewing, agenda-promoting, fact-twisting, negative troll from New Hampshire whose only purpose in life was to unfairly bash Disney on the Internet as part of some evil scheme headed by Al Lutz.

Funny how a critic’s standing can change, isn’t it?

If you read the introduction to the piece on the site’s homepage, even they refer to the article as “positive spin”, since the piece is 95% opinion and 5% information. There’s nothing wrong with that and I even share some of Mr. Hill's opinions – but he never addressed the primary cause of DCA’s failure because he doesn't see it. To keep this from being a seven-page essay, I’ll skip to specifics of the article (speaking as an Orange County local Downtown Disney is certainly NOT “the place for Orange County locals” and he dismissed the re-themeing efforts far too easily and he should know better). Instead, let me get to the heart of the matter.

California Adventure was designed to appeal to the tourist: the out-of-town visitor, the Mr. Hills, Captains and DisDucks in the country. And there’s nothing wrong with that either. People have been making tourist parks since the trolley lines snaked out of the cities in the late 1800’s. I think the tourist park is a legitimate design concept. But it’s a business disaster for Disney in Anaheim.

Disneyland’s attendance base is 65%+ locals from Southern California. Everything that makes California Adventure appealing to the tourist makes the park unappealing to the locals. It’s that fact that I think Mr. Hill (and others) miss. They may “like” the park because it was designed with them in mind, but two-thirds of its potential customers have a different mindset and are left cold by the place.

Case in point – Paradise Pier. Nice, but seaside amusement parks are an East Coast tradition that never really took hold way out here. There have been a few in California last century, but only one that remains is up in Santa Cruz. To us Californians, the beach is special – it is a place to surf, swim, sunbath, hangout, roller blade, watch girls, play volleyball, ride bikes, see the freaks in Venice, to pass the summer away. It is not a place to ride a roller coaster. Our memories of sunset at the beach is seeing the sun sink behind Catalina Island while the sailboats come back into the harbor and getting the fire ready for the night’s party. It is NOT watching the neon flicker to life on a Ferris wheel. Listening to merry-go-round versions of Beach Boys tunes may be beach-fantasy for those in New Hampshire cabins or Park Avenue apartments, but it has no emotional connection to those of us who actually live here.

I suppose it might be possible to build a profitable attraction that draws one third of Disneyland’s customer base, but I wouldn’t want to try it on some of the most expensive land in the country. Anaheim is never going to be a major vacation destination (especially with a park that’s half reruns from parks in Orlando) unless it has attractions that are so truly unique that they cannot be found anywhere else. Disneyland lost that designation in 1971 but made up for it through expanding the local market. Even the many ardent Disney fanatics on this board, the ones who travel to WDW just to see a couple of new parades, remain uninterested in traveling to see California Adventure, a whole new park. If Disney cannot attract that group, what chance to they have of attracting the less fanatic guests to replace the local customers that Disney has lost?

The real world of California is more interesting, more accessible and less expensive than Disney’s recreation. Heck, even the fantasy world that’s we’ve grown up with for fifty years – Disneyland – is a lot more interesting than this “park for the 21st century”. Californians have a fairly good sense when they’re being taken advantage of, and California Adventure comes off to us as a scam. Disney did the least amount of work and is demanding the highest possible prices – the exact definition of a tourist trap. That may work in the boonies, but there’s far too much competition for entertainment dollars around here and people are acting as you would expect them to. Disney already has a reputation for being expensive and now they're asking us to spend the same amount of money as Disneyland for less than half of its product. California Adventure is deserted and no one is going to wait ten years for the place to become adequate. We’ll all have moved onto to something else by then.

Are Mr. Hill’s opinions wrong? No, they are just irrelevant. His likes and dislikes about the park are not the problem. It’s the opinions of the millions of local guests who are avoiding the park that really matter. The danger for Disney is that one side of the company that wants to fix DCA by making it more appealing to the tourists (more WDW clones, more spinners for the kiddies) might win out over the other half of the Company that wants to make the place appealing to all (create a theme park that is unique and worthy of the Disney legacy). Big changes are needed and Disney can act boldly when it needs to, and sometimes those changes can more than carnival rides and a decade long expansion plan.

Just ask yourself, when was the last time the Mr. Hill attended a class at The Disney Institute?
 
I feel much better now. No Scoop, I wasn't trying to disbeleive Hill, nor say I absolutly Believe everything AV has ever said, but Hill's article sounded like so much pandering to distraught people.

Disney May do the right thing. I hope they do the right thing.
 
Well Definatly, Anaheim is not nor ever will be a resort destination, but Scoop, your cheating yourself if you skip out on Disneyland. There are numerous rides there that aren't at WDW as well (If you check out Yesterland, there are even more that used to be there that are gone.)
Indiana Jones and the temple of the forbidden eye alone is enough for me to say go once. Well that and the Matterhorn.
 
Mr. Scoop: you’ve really just shown the problem that Disney’s facing. Disneyland lost its “destination” value when WDW opened. It’s much more convenient for you people on the wrong coast to head to Florida rather than to glamorous California. Disneyland did well for a while by bringing back the local crowd, but we’re an expensive group to please (“Indy Jones” doesn’t come cheap). The Mouse has also become addicted to the spending patterns of people on vacation over the spending patterns of people out for a day’s visit.

So, after two solid decades of planning got tossed out, Disney went full-bore after the tourist market. As a result, they’ve alienated their local customer base. Worse still, the went after the tourist crowd as cheaply as possible and created a park that no one is going to make a trip to see. Again - if DCA doesn't interest you how do you think it plays to people with a lesser interest in Disney? Disney has ended up pleasing neither group and loosing a ton of money in the process.

What I find humorous is that in Mr. Hill’s article, titled “A Defense of California Adventure”, all he basically says that if you wait ten years you’ll get a copy of a park from Florida. Is there anything that Mr. Hill mentioned – ‘Tower of Terror’*, Bug’s Town, ‘Blast!’ or even ‘LuminAria’ going to convince you to fly an extra hour to California? No, I didn’t think so. All that’s going to happen is the creation of an even more expensive flop (and do some seriuous damage to Disneyland as well).

For Disneyland to become a real resort – it must have an attraction people are willing to see. Mr. Hill comments represent just one faction within the company, the one that’s basically too embarrassed and timid to admit that they made a HUGE mistake. When Euro Disney opened, a similar faction formed that argued nothing had to be changed, the French would come around, and that all the “problems” would just work themselves out - just give the place time. Frank Wells took charge, ousted that faction, and made some immediate fundamental changes to the project. I’m concerned that no one in Burbank has the insight or courage of Mr. Wells at the moment.

* - with all of the budget cuts that have happened to this attraction, most people have started to call the DCA version the “Tower of Mild Discomfort”.
 
About a year ago we stated to seriously think about heading to LA for a family vacation this summer. Why, well

One of the reasons would have been just as YoHo states. To give the kids a chance to experience some classic Disney attractions they don't get at WDW.

I admit we also had some curiousity about the soon to be new self proclaimed coaster capital of the world (SFMM) along with the vernable KBF, and the SanDiego animal experiences.

Top this off with the opening of a new Disney park!!!! and it started to add up to at least a week's worth of vacation days. We have tried to give our kids some varied vacation experiences and what could be more varied than LA (lol).

In the end we decided to wait. DCA turned out to be less the lure than originally expected and SFMM still hasn't gotten their two new state-of-the-art coasters up and running. Instead we satiated the kids ride fixation with a trip to the Point and SFWOA along with local sites until our fall WDW trip.

There is still a possibility we will head out West next summer. It would have probably been a given if DCA had been a better product. I agree the distance will never make it our primary destination, but given enough novel things to do it could be an every once in a while event.

Disney must have done scads of market research and it must have said they could get out-of-towners. Do we know assume this data was incorrect or that they just did a poor job of producing a product anyone would want to travel much of a distance to see. Do they now give up on them and cater mostly to the locals, or try to do things right this time and assume they will come from far away?
 
The trick to Disneyland as resort Destination is as Larworth points out. Unlike WDW they can't keep you on property. When I went (before DCA opened) the best part of the package was the free addmission to places like the San Diego zoo, KBF, Universal Studios Hollywood, etc.
Disney works with others instead of trying to keep you in their little paradise. Lets face it, the surface streets leading up to Disneyland aren't surrounded by swamps, they are surrounded by urban sprawl. you simply can't do DL the way you do WDW. Still, I think that the new Hotel and the revamped old ones could do quite well as long as they keep those non-Disney perks there. Personally I think there aren't any better hotels in LA for the family Vacationer and that's the way they have to play it.
 
I second the opinion that many of you are writing off Anaheim as a destination resort too quickly, but for a different reason. What is the fastest growing State in the U.S. right now? Nevada. The southwest is growing much faster than the northeast and when those people start looking around for a Disney vacation, Anaheim will often give them more bang for their bucks.

Look long-range: the south and west will continue to increase population faster than the east, and the Disneyland Resort will continue to grow. There's already a week's plus worth of stuff to do in Orange County - throw in Los Angeles and San Diego, and you can do something different every day for two weeks easy. In ten years, after DCA has expanded (and it will) and the resort has expanded onto the strawberry field, people in the south and west will be saying - why go all the way to Florida? Anaheim's got plenty of Disney.
 
Scoop, Considering half my trip was spent getting from Anaheim to San Fran via Monterey, I have to agree, but that's no excuse to skip out on the Happiest place on earth. (remeber WDW is NOT the happiest place on Earth only DL holds that title) :):)
 
This was not one of his better articles. Many people, including me, have been giving the same facts since before the park opened. I am surprised he didn't include my "second park syndrome" theory as well, which is a very important part of the story (in extremely simplified terms, that theory states that if you put a real-life park next to a fantasy park, people are going to have a problem with it because they have associated the destination with fantasy for so many years)! Walt Disney World went through it when Epcot opened (though not as extreme since the "half-complete" syndrome didn't apply to the same extent), Disneyland is going through it now, Disneyland Paris will go through it next year, and the only reason Tokyo Disneyland is NOT going through it is because its two parks are compatible in BOTH quality AND the type of experience they provide.
 
Originally posted by Another Voice


Are Mr. Hill’s opinions wrong? No, they are just irrelevant.

Like everything he writes. I'm appalled that people still consider Jim Hill's writing to be anything to even glance at. He merely strings together several unrelated "rumors" that he may or may not have made up, adds a dash of heavy speculation, and a whole lot of bloated opinion to come up with thirty-part novellas. I just don't understand why there's so much discussion about the junk he spews.
 
We talk about Hill because that's what we do! We need something to "tie up to" in our discussion of the minute, otherwise it turns into an ugly mob scene, much like we witnessed last night! LOL!
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:
 
“I just don't understand why there's so much discussion about the junk he spews.”

Because most of the time he’s correct. Disney is a very large, divided and secretive organization that’s filled with people that love to talk. I think Mr. Hill does a very good job of filtering through the information he receives and I can’t recall ever reading where he’s made a major factual error. He does not report a lot of “common knowledge” information (e.g., Monodavi has been negotiating to get out of DCA since early summer and everyone in the company knew it). Disney also changes its corporate mind with extreme speed and that can make it appear that rumors were “wrong” (e.g, the mini-blowup over the Adventureland hours). I occasionally disagree with Mr. Hill’s analysis as I do with this article on California Adventure. My comment in the prior post only dealt with this issue, not all of opinions. Whether Mr. Hill thinks Paradise Pier looks pretty at night ten years from now doesn’t get to the core reason why this ill-conceived park is failing.

Back to the matter at hand: Disneyland used to be just one of the sites a visitor would see while in Southern California. The Company wants to change that to where Southern California is just one of the sites to see when you’re visiting the Disneyland Resort. It’s the same concept they tired in Europe where they based the hotel financials on the fact that people would spend their vacations at EDL and make Paris a side trip. It didn’t work in France and it’s not working in California.
 















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