Jesus wasn't resurrected

[Amity 3]

Not yet,but I fully intend to learn Hebrew..I can pick out quite a bit here and there through.. Most services at the Shul contain a lot of Hebrew. Most of the people I go to shul with spea it

if I ever felt the need, Judaism is the only faith I respect and would mildly engage.

 

[RoyalCanadian]

This is an excerpt of a Lutheran review of the "Left Behind" movie. It helps to explain some of the serious concerns with the dispenational pre-millenialist theology as presented by LaHaye.

The phrase "caught up" is the Biblical basis for the concept of "rapture." One of the most glaring problems with the "Left Behind" scenario is that the "Rapture" is presented as a secret--the people who are "Left Behind" have no idea what has happened. But in both 1 Thessalonians 4 and in Matthew 24, Christ's return is described as visible: "as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man" (Matt. 24:27), and audible: "with the voice of the archangel" (1 Thess. 4:16), and "with a loud trumpet call" (Matt. 24:31).

And Christians will not be the only ones who experience the event. Jesus tells us in Matt. 24:30, "[Then] all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

The authors of "Left Behind" also ignore the Lord's coming down (1 Thess. 4:16). Why do they suppose that Christ will change directions once Christians meet Him in the air? Instead, Jesus compares the event to the five wise maidens who meet the Bridegroom, and then accompany Him as he continues into the wedding feast (Matt. 25:1*13). In other words, Jesus continues to descend.

Christians who read "Left Behind" or who have seen the movie of the same name should keep in mind that Holy Scripture nowhere suggests that there will be multiple days of judgment. There will be one final Day of Judgment on which Christ will return once and for all to judge both the living and the dead (Matt. 13:40*43; 25:31*32; 2 Peter 3:7). Unbelievers will not be given a "second chance."

Other Problems
The "Left Behind" series is fraught with other misinterpretations of Scriptures. For instance, the Antichrist is portrayed as a political figure rather than a spiritual threat. But Paul writes in 2 Thess. 2:3*4, "The man of lawlessness ... will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

More generally, the "Left Behind" approach to prophecy severely undermines Jesus' words, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only" (Matt. 24:36). After all, the authors of "Left Behind" regard certain specific events as necessary for Christ's Second Coming, such as the rebirth of the nation of Israel, the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, and a one-world currency. If this were true, the Christians who lived and died between A.D. 70, when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, and 1948, when the modern nation of Israel was established, were foolish to think that Jesus could have returned in their day, since the Jews were without their own country during that time.

But Christians have always been right to expect their Savior might return soon. When the disciples ask Jesus to tell them the signs that the end of the world is near, Jesus answers by pointing to events that have been with us since the beginning--"wars and rumors of wars," "nation rising against nation," "earthquakes in various places," etc. In other words, there has never been a moment since the beginning of Christianity in which Christians could not reasonably expect Jesus' imminent return.

Law and Gospel
Although there is some good in books that compel people to think about their eternal destiny and perhaps even induce some to go to church, there is a danger in the "Left Behind" books that goes beyond its misrepresentation of the final judgment.

Left Behind actually presents a softer version of God's Law than God would have us know in His Word. By suggesting that people will be given a second chance, LaHaye and Jenkins foster a kind of false security. A reader may think to himself, "I'll just wait and see if this rapture thing pans out. If so, I'll know that I have seven years to get my act together." Ironically, LaHaye and Jenkins offer a sort of Protestant "purgatory"--a temporary purging period for those who are "Left Behind."

Jesus will indeed return. The prospect of His return as Judge should terrify unrepentant sinners. However, Christ will also come as Savior to those who believe in Him (1 Cor. 15:58). The preoccupation of "Left Behind" with final judgment and the future fulfillment of prophecy ultimately distracts from Jesus' chief message of comfort: the forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

Because of the teachings of the Church in the Middle Ages, Martin Luther grew up imagining Jesus as a "stern Judge sitting on a rainbow." LaHaye and Jenkins portray Christ in that same way. They transform faith into a work one does in preparation for the Day of Judgment. And the Christian, troubled in conscience over past sins, is left to look inward and ask, "Am I doing enough? Am I believing enough? Will I be 'Left Behind'?"

Jesus invites us, however, to turn outward, to His Word, to Baptism, and to His Supper, where we find His assurance that "no one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:29). "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him" (John 3:17).​

 

[Saxsoon]

Very interesting article Canadian.

Wow this thread got so far off track.

 

[Amity 3]

Very interesting article Canadian.

Wow this thread got so far off track.

in the press conference today, Cameron went on record as neither being a theologist or an archaeologist, but a guy shooting a documentary,he also stated he's not trying to derail anyone's religion.

man, that sounds exactly what I first posted about the story.

 

[JoyG]

Royal Canadian,

Your posts have been very interesting. They didn't take the direction I was expecting them to take. When I hear people dismiss the Left Behind series, they usually dismiss it on the fact that they don't believe in the rapture and coming of an antichrist at all.

What I find interesting about your posts, is it appears that you do think the rapture will occur, there will be a time of great tribulation, there will be an antichrist.

What seems to be the main difference is when Christians are raptured, the political verse religious role of the anti christ.

I personally don't have an opinion on that. I don't have an opinion on if I'm "pre-trib" "mid-trib" or "post-trib". I don't really spend time thinking about it because I focus on living my life today for God.

However, I think many non christians would be surprised to realize that the idea of the rapture in some form is a tenet of all christian faiths (whether christians themselves realize it or not). Often the entire idea of a rapture/end times event is dismissed as an evangelical creation.

 

[magicmato]

Royal Canadian,

Your posts have been very interesting. They didn't take the direction I was expecting them to take. When I hear people dismiss the Left Behind series, they usually dismiss it on the fact that they don't believe in the rapture and coming of an antichrist at all.

What I find interesting about your posts, is it appears that you do think the rapture will occur, there will be a time of great tribulation, there will be an antichrist.

What seems to be the main difference is when Christians are raptured, the political verse religious role of the anti christ.

I personally don't have an opinion on that. I don't have an opinion on if I'm "pre-trib" "mid-trib" or "post-trib". I don't really spend time thinking about it because I focus on living my life today for God.

However, I think many non christians would be surprised to realize that the idea of the rapture in some form is a tenet of all christian faiths (whether christians themselves realize it or not). Often the entire idea of a rapture/end times event is dismissed as an evangelical creation.

I think a lot of people have an issue with the whole idea of the Rapture. I mean, suddenly millions of people will just disappear? Erm... it boggles the mind. (Yes, I know... god is infinite.)

Of course, since I do not feel that only Christianity is valid, I have an issue with the assumption that only Christians will live in heaven and everyone else will be left behind on earth to go to heck with the Anti-Christ.

First, I do not believe God is that nasty. Second, I do not buy the fact that the earth will be cleared and then god will set everyone back up on earth again to start over. Third, I do not believe in Creationism, so how could I believe that god would just clear off the earth like that? Not to say anything about anyone's Faith, but to *me* it is illogical and smacks of fear-mongering. (Yes, I know it is in the Bible... it still feels that way to me.)

 

[cardaway]

IMO, if it smacks of fear-mongering it's because it is.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I've read Revelations, but current Catholic theology doesn't get into the whole end times thing. In the churches I've attended, the only thing I've heard about it is the verse where Jesus says "even the Son of Man does not know the day or the hour." I've been satisfied to leave it at that.

 

[LuvDuke]

Sorry LuvDuke -- Martin Luther closed Purgatory for refurb a long time ago. Would you care for a non-smoking seat in Limbo?

I was raised a Catholic. Martin who?

 

[phillybeth]

I don't know who gets to heaven. As I have said repeatedly, I AM NOT GOD. GOD decides and if GOD wants to He can say that everybody or nobody gets into heaven regardless of what is in the Bible. The God that I worship is omnipotent and is not constrained by a book, no matter how noble the writings are in that book. The book is NOT bigger than God. The Bible is an extremely important part of my faith, I've read it through many times and I read sections of it that I'm particularly fond of over and over. It helps me to understand my faith better and hopefully live my life better. It is a tool, that I believe was left to us to help us. However, when we get so constrained by the words in it that we lose sight of the majesty of it's inspiration, we're missing the real point of it all. The Bible isn't the end of the story, the Bible is designed to lead us to the end of the story-which is God.

Fitz, once again you have struck a chord with me. Bravo. You give Christians a good name.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Fitz, once again you have struck a chord with me. Bravo. You give Christians a good name.

Thanks, but it really is divine inspiration. If I had let myself write what I really wanted so say, it might not have been as nice.

I feel like the Christians on this board who believe as I do are often outshouted by those who want to push their particular theology down people's throats. I wasn't kidding when I said that I had loved ones that have been completely turned away from faith because of people like that. It just angers me that people who read the same Bible I do can be so hurtful to others.

I also have to say that I have been taught well by the non-Christians on this board to be much more careful about what I write and the way it may sound to someone who isn't a Christian and doesn't particularly want to be one. I was saying insensitive things without even knowing it. I'm still working hard on not doing that myself and pointing out such things when I see them.

 

[The_Horned_King]

I think a lot of people have an issue with the whole idea of the Rapture. I mean, suddenly millions of people will just disappear? Erm... it boggles the mind. (Yes, I know... god is infinite.)

Of course, since I do not feel that only Christianity is valid, I have an issue with the assumption that only Christians will live in heaven and everyone else will be left behind on earth to go to heck with the Anti-Christ.

First, I do not believe God is that nasty. Second, I do not buy the fact that the earth will be cleared and then god will set everyone back up on earth again to start over. Third, I do not believe in Creationism, so how could I believe that god would just clear off the earth like that? Not to say anything about anyone's Faith, but to *me* it is illogical and smacks of fear-mongering. (Yes, I know it is in the Bible... it still feels that way to me.)

Could not have said it better my self!

 

[magicmato]

Thanks, but it really is divine inspiration. If I had let myself write what I really wanted so say, it might not have been as nice.

I feel like the Christians on this board who believe as I do are often outshouted by those who want to push their particular theology down people's throats. I wasn't kidding when I said that I had loved ones that have been completely turned away from faith because of people like that. It just angers me that people who read the same Bible I do can be so hurtful to others.

I also have to say that I have been taught well by the non-Christians on this board to be much more careful about what I write and the way it may sound to someone who isn't a Christian and doesn't particularly want to be one. I was saying insensitive things without even knowing it. I'm still working hard on not doing that myself and pointing out such things when I see them.

You are doing a good job. I have found your messages on this thread to be well thought out and I have agreed with a lot of your ideas. My issue with a lot of the ... erm... firm believers, is that they leave no chance that anyone else who disagrees could be correct. It is their way or, quite literally, heck for anyone who disagrees. That sort of black and white world view just turns me off and really makes me not want to bother learning more, and I am from a Christian background. One can only imagine what goes on in the minds of non-christians who are confronted by that attitude.

 

[ead79]

Thanks for posting this article. I feel that that LaHaye was saying something very different about the rapture than the author of this article feels he is saying. I have always heard from other pre-trib subscribers (and believe myself) that the rapture and the Second Coming of Christ are two distinct and separate events. Thus I do believe the verses the article quoted about Jesus' return being visible and accompanied by trumpets. I also agree that no man knows the date or time when this will happen. I just believe that the rapture, a wholly separate event, will occur first.

Also, the Left Behind books clearly portray the anti-christ as BOTH a political and religious figure, and that's how I tend to feel as well. In the books they have events that directly deal with the Scripture passage the article quoted (2 Thess.2:3-4) about the anti-christ setting himself up as God to be worshipped.

Of course, this whole subject is debated and studied by Christians worldwide. I appreciate your perspective though we don't agree interpretation-wise. Thanks again!

This is an excerpt of a Lutheran review of the "Left Behind" movie. It helps to explain some of the serious concerns with the dispenational pre-millenialist theology as presented by LaHaye.

The phrase "caught up" is the Biblical basis for the concept of "rapture." One of the most glaring problems with the "Left Behind" scenario is that the "Rapture" is presented as a secret--the people who are "Left Behind" have no idea what has happened. But in both 1 Thessalonians 4 and in Matthew 24, Christ's return is described as visible: "as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man" (Matt. 24:27), and audible: "with the voice of the archangel" (1 Thess. 4:16), and "with a loud trumpet call" (Matt. 24:31).

And Christians will not be the only ones who experience the event. Jesus tells us in Matt. 24:30, "[Then] all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

The authors of "Left Behind" also ignore the Lord's coming down (1 Thess. 4:16). Why do they suppose that Christ will change directions once Christians meet Him in the air? Instead, Jesus compares the event to the five wise maidens who meet the Bridegroom, and then accompany Him as he continues into the wedding feast (Matt. 25:1*13). In other words, Jesus continues to descend.

Christians who read "Left Behind" or who have seen the movie of the same name should keep in mind that Holy Scripture nowhere suggests that there will be multiple days of judgment. There will be one final Day of Judgment on which Christ will return once and for all to judge both the living and the dead (Matt. 13:40*43; 25:31*32; 2 Peter 3:7). Unbelievers will not be given a "second chance."

Other Problems
The "Left Behind" series is fraught with other misinterpretations of Scriptures. For instance, the Antichrist is portrayed as a political figure rather than a spiritual threat. But Paul writes in 2 Thess. 2:3*4, "The man of lawlessness ... will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

More generally, the "Left Behind" approach to prophecy severely undermines Jesus' words, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only" (Matt. 24:36). After all, the authors of "Left Behind" regard certain specific events as necessary for Christ's Second Coming, such as the rebirth of the nation of Israel, the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, and a one-world currency. If this were true, the Christians who lived and died between A.D. 70, when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, and 1948, when the modern nation of Israel was established, were foolish to think that Jesus could have returned in their day, since the Jews were without their own country during that time.

But Christians have always been right to expect their Savior might return soon. When the disciples ask Jesus to tell them the signs that the end of the world is near, Jesus answers by pointing to events that have been with us since the beginning--"wars and rumors of wars," "nation rising against nation," "earthquakes in various places," etc. In other words, there has never been a moment since the beginning of Christianity in which Christians could not reasonably expect Jesus' imminent return.

Law and Gospel
Although there is some good in books that compel people to think about their eternal destiny and perhaps even induce some to go to church, there is a danger in the "Left Behind" books that goes beyond its misrepresentation of the final judgment.

Left Behind actually presents a softer version of God's Law than God would have us know in His Word. By suggesting that people will be given a second chance, LaHaye and Jenkins foster a kind of false security. A reader may think to himself, "I'll just wait and see if this rapture thing pans out. If so, I'll know that I have seven years to get my act together." Ironically, LaHaye and Jenkins offer a sort of Protestant "purgatory"--a temporary purging period for those who are "Left Behind."

Jesus will indeed return. The prospect of His return as Judge should terrify unrepentant sinners. However, Christ will also come as Savior to those who believe in Him (1 Cor. 15:58). The preoccupation of "Left Behind" with final judgment and the future fulfillment of prophecy ultimately distracts from Jesus' chief message of comfort: the forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

Because of the teachings of the Church in the Middle Ages, Martin Luther grew up imagining Jesus as a "stern Judge sitting on a rainbow." LaHaye and Jenkins portray Christ in that same way. They transform faith into a work one does in preparation for the Day of Judgment. And the Christian, troubled in conscience over past sins, is left to look inward and ask, "Am I doing enough? Am I believing enough? Will I be 'Left Behind'?"

Jesus invites us, however, to turn outward, to His Word, to Baptism, and to His Supper, where we find His assurance that "no one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:29). "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him" (John 3:17).​

 

[What the Heck]

His Son Jesus said only one way -- and to preach it to all the world.

Yes, but that one way was only one thing to do - believe in Him. That is, according to the faith, the only true absolute. That is the goal. The path to get there takes many turns, and has many different origin points.

 

[Amity 3]

Thanks, but it really is divine inspiration. If I had let myself write what I really wanted so say, it might not have been as nice.

I feel like the Christians on this board who believe as I do are often outshouted by those who want to push their particular theology down people's throats. I wasn't kidding when I said that I had loved ones that have been completely turned away from faith because of people like that. It just angers me that people who read the same Bible I do can be so hurtful to others.

I also have to say that I have been taught well by the non-Christians on this board to be much more careful about what I write and the way it may sound to someone who isn't a Christian and doesn't particularly want to be one. I was saying insensitive things without even knowing it. I'm still working hard on not doing that myself and pointing out such things when I see them.

as a non-believer and an overall minority in this world, that's refreshing. don't feel the need to be PC and sensitive, I think we've evolved into having a pretty tough skin.

the only thing I believe is the world would be a much better place if everyone kept their beliefs in thir own homes.

 

[What the Heck]

I really can't wait to see who gets post 666

 

[Lady V]

well, you know what I think? I think this will be a time for all who believe he rose from the grave to get together and stand tall. what an opportunity to really talk about our Lord!! Sometimes you want to bring it up to people but you know it might not fit in the conversation...well, if they are already talking about it then you have the perfect chance to jump on in with what you know is true!! In time this will backfire on Cameron because the more Christ is talked about the better!! God bless everyone and stand tall and spread the word!! He lives!!

 

[Fitswimmer]

as a non-believer and an overall minority in this world, that's refreshing. don't feel the need to be PC and sensitive, I think we've evolved into having a pretty tough skin.

the only thing I believe is the world would be a much better place if everyone kept their beliefs in thir own homes.

I don't agree that we should have to hide our beliefs in our houses. We should all be free to express our faith, whatever it is we have faith in. I don't want anyone to feel that they have to hide. That's why I'm trying to be more aware on the board. I don't want to push people away from expressing beliefs and the paths that led to them. I find it fascinating to read about everyone's journey and how it influences their perspective on the world.

 

[Amity 3]

it's your deepest core belief, it's supposed to be the most personal relationship you can have.

why go shouting it to the rest of the world?