Jesus wasn't resurrected

[Buckalew11]

Neither do Jews worship a triune God..It's really Christians that are the odd man out..Not that there's anything wrong with that.

That's what I was thinking.

 

[salmoneous]

Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God.

Really? I thought they worshiped, "the One and Only God, the supreme Creator, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob," Sounds like the same guy to me

Jesus says that he is the way to the father.

Do you believe it *possible* that Jesus could be the way to the Father for everybody - including those people who have never heard His name?

mentally incapable people and children before the stage of accountability fall under God's grace and I believe will be in heaven.

The notion of "stage of accountability" and exceptions for the mentally incapable don't appear in the Bible. Jesus certainly didn't mention them when he said he was the only way to the Father.

So it seem to me - and I hate to put words in people's mouth's so correct me if I'm wrong - that even you believe that there are ways for people today to get to God without joining a Christian church, saying a salvation prayer, believing in the resurrection, etc. Then it would make sense to believe that when Jesus said no man gets to the Father without Him, He didn't mean that any of those things were necessary.

 

[ford family]

Have I totally reconciled in my mind that those who have never heard of Christ will spend an eternity apart from God? no, but I have faith in what the Bible says and Jesus says that he is the way to the father.

Let me get this straight. You believe that anybody who died before Jesus turned up and anybody since then who was not told about him will not go to heaven despite the fact that they could do nothing else even if they wanted to.
In addition, those not wanted on the voyage include anybody who has or had a religious belief other than accepting Jesus Christ as the son of God or anybody who has or had no personal belief system at all?
Possible exceptions include infants and the mentally handicapped?

ford family

 

[LuvDuke]

This is a sensitive topic that easily triggers a lot of very personal and emotional responses from everyone. Let's settle it here and now:

WE FOUND JESUS!!!

he was behind the couch the whole time.....

You may now return to your regularly scheduled confessional/baptismal/resurrectional programming.

An-a one, an-a two:


Well, I don't care if it rains or freezes
Long as I have my plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car
I could go a hundred miles an hour
Long as I got the almighty power
Riding on the dashboard of my car

 

[aquinas]

Really? I thought they worshiped, "the One and Only God, the supreme Creator, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob," Sounds like the same guy to me

Do you believe it *possible* that Jesus could be the way to the Father for everybody - including those people who have never heard His name?

The notion of "stage of accountability" and exceptions for the mentally incapable don't appear in the Bible. Jesus certainly didn't mention them when he said he was the only way to the Father.

So it seem to me - and I hate to put words in people's mouth's so correct me if I'm wrong - that even you believe that there are ways for people today to get to God without joining a Christian church, saying a salvation prayer, believing in the resurrection, etc. Then it would make sense to believe that when Jesus said no man gets to the Father without Him, He didn't mean that any of those things were necessary.

I dont think its as simple as say these words and you are in. I think that is the big lie of easy believism that you find in many evangelical churches. I believe in effectual calling by God to salvation, receiving that gift, confessing and repenting your sins and living a life with Christ in the process of sanctification. Because we do see where Jesus says many will profess Him but will be turned away because He knew them not.

Right, you do not have to join a church to be saved. However, I think that once you are saved you should be in a local body of believers. What is necessary is to believe in the one true Savior, confess and repent and be a new creation in Christ. Jesus says that you have to be "born again". He is talking about a spiritual birth.

You are right, there is nothing directly about stage of accountability in the Bible. We do see David mentioning he would see his baby who died in heaven again. But I do personally believe in God's mercy and grace in these situations.

As far as Jews are concerned. I will admit I am still conflicted on that matter. I know there is mentioned a remnant of Israel and there is much debate about that within the realm of theology. My personal beliefs are that God has a plan for His chosen people. But that is very loosely based in scripture and more about my own opinion. I am very conflicted there, I will admit.

 

[aquinas]

Let me get this straight. You believe that anybody who died before Jesus turned up and anybody since then who was not told about him will not go to heaven despite the fact that they could do nothing else even if they wanted to.
In addition, those not wanted on the voyage include anybody who has or had a religious belief other than accepting Jesus Christ as the son of God or anybody who has or had no personal belief system at all?
Possible exceptions include infants and the mentally handicapped?

ford family

We are talking about two different things. Before Jesus Old Covenant, after Jesus new covenant. Jesus wasnt talking in retroactive terms saying that everyone before Him would not go to heaven.

 

[salmoneous]

What is necessary is to believe in the one true Savior, confess and repent and be a new creation in Christ.

If you believe that children and people who are not mentally competent can commune with God without doing these things, then they aren't necessary.

But I do personally believe in God's mercy and grace in these situations.

And I believe God's mercy and grace are in many other situations too. When Jesus said he was "the way" he didn't cut off God's mercy and grace.

I am very conflicted there, I will admit.

Join the club

 

[aquinas]

If you believe that children and people who are not mentally competent can commune with God without doing these things, then they aren't necessary.

And I believe God's mercy and grace are in many other situations too. When Jesus said he was "the way" he didn't cut off God's mercy and grace.

Join the club

But Jesus didnt mention any other way. If there are other ways, then why arent they mentioned? I disagree with you there. I firmly hold to Jesus is the only way to the Father.

 

[salmoneous]

Jesus wasnt talking in retroactive terms saying that everyone before Him would not go to heaven.

But he is saying they won't get to heaven without Him. Remember, he is THE way, THE truth, THE light. Nobody gets to God without Him. Remember?

If Old Testament Jews don't use Jesus to get to God, how did they get there? None were perfect - none obeyed the law..

 

[salmoneous]

But Jesus didnt mention any other way. If there are other ways, then why arent they mentioned?

Jesus just said he was the way. He didn't what it meant for him to be the way. He certainly didn't say that meant you can to believe in Jesus as the one true savior to get to God.

Whatever path you believe children and the mentally competent can use to get to God is a path I believe others can take as well.

 

[Buckalew11]

They gave sacrifices. And, Christians believe Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. You've heard Him referred to as the "Lamb of God"? The one who takes away the sins of the world. Which is why His blood was shed. When Jesus was crucified, the veil in the temple was torn in 2 from bottom to top. We no longer needed a High Priest to enter the Holy of Holies. Jesus became that High Priest. It is all very symbolic of what was done in the OT.

 

[aquinas]

Jesus just said he was the way. He didn't what it meant for him to be the way. He certainly didn't say that meant you can to believe in Jesus as the one true savior to get to God.

Whatever path you believe children and the mentally competent can use to get to God is a path I believe others can take as well.

The difference is that children before accountability and the mentally incapable never have denied Jesus.

Again, OT equals old covenant. Jesus always was BUT only on earth during His incarnation.

 

[salmoneous]

The difference is that children before accountability and the mentally incapable never have denied Jesus.

By the way, not sure how this is coming across from your end, but I'm having an enjoyable conversation here. If it seems like an argument to you, just let me know and we should
probably drop it and agree to disagree... Back to the discussion...

But now you seem to have changed your position. The key to getting to God *isn't* believing in Jesus. It is "not denying" Jesus. So children, the mentally incapable are in. But doesn't that also let in the folks who have never heard the name Jesus?

Side note - if sacrifices were good enough to bring Old Testament Jews to God, why did Christ have to come, die and be a sacrifice? I've always believe His death was necessary for those that lived after Him, contemporary with Him and before Him.

 

[jaimee1024]

I believe that when Jesus said "I am the way" he was referring to his teachings. He was sent by God to teach us how to live...how God wanted us to live. He taught us the Lord's Prayer...praising God, not himself. The bible was manipulated and edited to serve people who wanted power and wealth, so even if it COULD be interpreted the same way by all people, I still wouldn't believe it to be God's true word. We don't even know who wrote it...any of it!

Here's a question for you (anyone)...if Jesus did indeed die for our sins...and one's greatest sin is NOT believing that he died for our sins, isn't one automatically forgiven since that's why Jesus died...to save us from our sins?! Or is that the one sin that can't be forgiven? Are you only forgiven if you are truly sorry in your heart? And if that's the case...then why did Jesus have to die for us? When we are truly sorry in our heart, doesn't God forgive us? (please note this is not to bash or say anyone esle is wrong...I'm truly just curious how other people see these things...I believe God gave us minds with the intention that we USE them so I take every opportunity to learn that I can)

 

[JoyG]

Whatever path you believe children and the mentally competent can use to get to God is a path I believe others can take as well.

Here's why I believe children and people who have "childlike" mental abilities would be going to Heaven. I don't necessarily think adults who've never heard of Jesus would fall into this category. But, I don't know for sure what happens to people who've never really heard the name Jesus.


Matthew 5:5- Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Matthew 5:8- Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God.
Matthew 18:3-I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of Heaven.
Matthew 19:14- Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.

 

[jimmiej]

My question wasn't so much "what does it mean", but why would Christ saying something on such an important issue that requires looking at the overall context of Scripture, a commentary, study in the original language and reading in other translations?

When you talk to people about salvation, do you give them specific commandments to obey and tell them to sell all their possessions? Do you talk about the difficulty of the rich getting into heaven? Or do you spell it out straightforward (1) all are sinners (2) say a salvation prayer and get into heaven (3) otherwise burn in Hell.

If there were one and only one answer - and it was as simple as 1-2-3 - isn't that's how God would have laid it out for us? But he didn't. He makes us search for answers. He makes us think and draw our own conclusions. I think God expect different things from each of us...

I will agree with you to a point. We all come to Jesus from different directions, but I believe the Bible is clear (Jesus, Paul, & others) that Jesus is the only way. The apostle Peter, one of the 12 said:

Acts 4

8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11He is
" 'the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone.'12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Wouldn't that seem to back Jesus' words?

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I'd also like to get your thoughts on these words by Jesus:

Matthew 7:12-14
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

To me, that seems to back up John 14:6 also. That's my point about comparing difficult Scripture with other passages to gain a better understanding. Like you, I wonder sometimes why God chose to keep us confused on some issues.

 

[JoyG]

Here's a question for you (anyone)...if Jesus did indeed die for our sins...and one's greatest sin is NOT believing that he died for our sins, isn't one automatically forgiven since that's why Jesus died...to save us from our sins?!

I don't know anywhere in the Bible where it says we're automatically forgiven for any sins. The Bible says in 1 John 1:9- If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That means there is some action required on our part first...the confession.

Or is that the one sin that can't be forgiven?

The only sin the Bible says is unforgivable is "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" and there is debate about what that really is.

Are you only forgiven if you are truly sorry in your heart?

see above

And if that's the case...then why did Jesus have to die for us?

Jesus died to give us a way to God. Since Jesus died we can NOW confess our sins, ask for forgiveness because Jesus paid the "punishment" for us. Before Jesus (and currently without Jesus) a punishment is required for sinning...that punishment is death.

When we are truly sorry in our heart, doesn't God forgive us?

The Bible says the wages of sin is death. God's punishment for sinning is death. Through Jesus we can be forgiven if we're truly sorry.

 

[dcentity2000]

Holy Texts and interpretation have co-existed forever. Remember Hamlet? The grave diggers pondered over the cardinal sin of suicide, wondering if insanity impacted on the sin or not.



Rich::

 

[JoyG]

Salmoneous, what I hear you saying is that you agree that Jesus is the one and only way....what you don't agree with is HOW we interpret using Him as the way.

Christians typically believe to use Jesus as the way to God requires the confession of sins, and acceptance of His sacrifice for us.*

But you for example, would believe that Jesus manifests himself in other forms to other people, cultures, etc? And that how people use Jesus as the way to God is up for interpretation?

I'm just trying to understand your argument to effectively discuss it with you.


*Here's the how according to Christians:
'IF you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.' Romans 10:9 (and also by the way, the reason the actual resurrection is a big deal).

 

[salmoneous]

Salmoneous, what I hear you saying is that you agree that Jesus is the one and only way....what you don't agree with is HOW we interpret using Him as the way.

But you for example, would believe that Jesus manifests himself in other forms to other people, cultures, etc? And that how people use Jesus as the way to God is up for interpretation?

First of all, let me say again that I don't know who Jesus does and doesn't bring to God. I just don't think the Bible puts limits on it. In particular, I look at a verse like the one you quote from Romans as providing one group Jesus will bring to God. But I don't believe the verse says those are the only folks.

As for your particular question, let me see if I can explain... Imagine there are natives on an island who have never heard of Jesus. They worshiping a shrub. I'm not necessarily saying the shrub is a different manifestation of Jesus - and that by worshiping it they are worshiping Jesus. What I am saying is that Jesus could simple choose to bring the shrub-worshipers to God.