Jesus wasn't resurrected

[Fitswimmer]

Man's will is limited by our fallen condition before we come to salvation.

But that doesnt answer the question. Can man stand in God's way of calling someone to salvation?

The Holy Spirit conditions the heart to receive and hear the Gospel. Regeneration of the heart occurs and a person accepts salvation. Yes, we had a choice but it was a conditioned choice that appears to us a freely made choice. But would we have said no after the glory of God had been revealed to us?

I can't accept the idea of God limiting free will in the first place, so I highly doubt we're going to get anywhere in the zip code of agreement on this. It seems to me to be antithetical to Scripture.

Yes, I believe that the actions of man can influence a person's choice whether to believe or not. You've made your choice and you're so happy with it that you can't imagine anyone else doing anything different. I understand that, but people can and do make other choices even with knowledge.
I don't believe that God ever stops trying, though because of the depth of His love for us.

 

[aquinas]

I can't accept the idea of God limiting free will in the first place, so I highly doubt we're going to get anywhere in the zip code of agreement on this. It seems to me to be antithetical to Scripture.

Yes, I believe that the actions of man can influence a person's choice whether to believe or not. You've made your choice and you're so happy with it that you can't imagine anyone else doing anything different. I understand that, but people can and do make other choices even with knowledge.
I don't believe that God ever stops trying, though because of the depth of His love for us.

You are right we are not going to agree on free will.

But, I am more concerned about you stating that God is ominpotent on one hand and then on the other saying that people can stand in the way of coming to salvation. Now, you are backing off from that a little bit and saying that people can influence another person's choice and that God never stops trying. When you were pretty cut and dry before when saying that people could stop other people from coming to salvation. Therefore, discounting God's role in salvation and making it totally a man centered proposition. God does pursue those he calls to salvation. If it is God's will that someone come to salvation, no man can stand in the way of that. God is not only sovereign but good.

 

[jimmiej]

That's an awful broad brush you are using there.

I think I'm going to add Ephesians 4:29-32 to a signiture if I can ever figure out how to set one up.....

Does that apply to wrevy also?

 

[Fitswimmer]

You are right we are not going to agree on free will.

But, I am more concerned about you stating that God is ominpotent on one hand and then on the other saying that people can stand in the way of coming to salvation. Now, you are backing off from that a little bit and saying that people can influence another person's choice and that God never stops trying. When you were pretty cut and dry before when saying that people could stop other people from coming to salvation. Therefore, discounting God's role in salvation and making it totally a man centered proposition. God does pursue those he calls to salvation. If it is God's will that someone come to salvation, no man can stand in the way of that. God is not only sovereign but good.

Let me see if I can be clear on what I'm saying. 1. God always wants people to come to Him. 2. God has granted us free will of His own choice. 3. Because we have free will, we choose whether or not to accept God's call, the action of others can influence our choice.

I don't see how God giving us free will makes Him less omnipotent, but then you don't believe that God gave us true free will anyway.

Have you never met anyone who told you that the actions of a Christian turned them away? Most people I know have met at least one person that has said that. Whether it's a member of the clergy or a member of a congregation, other people's behavior has influence. Again, I would ask that if other Christian's behavior has no influence because God has limited free will and chosen who will be saved-why the command to evangelize?

 

[magicmato]

Amazing how many people "know" God without knowing His Word.

Many seem to have decided that God said, "Ignore my Son, Jesus, and spin the big "pick a faith" wheel" and "as long as you lead a 'good' life, however you choose to define it you'll have eteranal life."

Of course, this is the anti-thesis of Christianity.

Amazing how people can "know" that God did not give us many paths to Him. One would think it would not be God's wish for us to demand everyone do as we do, simply because it is the right thing for us personally.

You are not God, stop pretending you know what He would want or what He may have set in place.

 

[aquinas]

Let me see if I can be clear on what I'm saying. 1. God always wants people to come to Him. 2. God has granted us free will of His own choice. 3. Because we have free will, we choose whether or not to accept God's call, the action of others can influence our choice.

I don't see how God giving us free will makes Him less omnipotent, but then you don't believe that God gave us true free will anyway.

Have you never met anyone who told you that the actions of a Christian turned them away? Most people I know have met at least one person that has said that. Whether it's a member of the clergy or a member of a congregation, other people's behavior has influence. Again, I would ask that if other Christian's behavior has no influence because God has limited free will and chosen who will be saved-why the command to evangelize?

I never said, God had limited free will. And I never said God didnt give us free will. I just view the concept of "free will" differently than you do especially when it comes to our decision to accept the gift of salvation.

Like I said before, we are commanded to evangelize. To proclaim the Gospel. It is not, however, our job to bring people to salvation. We proclaim, the Holy Spirit conditions the heart to the Word and Gospel. God calls who he wills to Him. We do not know who that is so we are commanded to spread the word.

Temporary influence, perhaps. But no one can stop another person from coming to salvation when it is God's will. You are lessening God's sovereignity and ominpotence when you saying that man's free will trumps God's will. When you say that mere mortals can stop Almighty God from drawing sinners to Him then you are saying that God is limited by man and thus putting Him in that same box that you declared that people were doing when they said that Jesus is the only way to salvation.

There is alot of mystery when it comes to how election and free will work together to be sure. But man's free will will never trump God's will. Any suggestion otherwise leads one down the path of Open Theism.

 

[salmoneous]

Does that apply to wrevy also?

The Ephesians part - sure. Didn't notice wvrevy making up stuff about me, so the broad-bush comment wasn't aimed that way.

 

[jimmiej]

The Ephesians part - sure. Didn't notice wvrevy making up stuff about me, so the broad-bush comment wasn't aimed that way.

He did about me (and others). Go back & look.

 

[phillybeth]

The Holy Spirit conditions the heart to receive and hear the Gospel. Regeneration of the heart occurs and a person accepts salvation. Yes, we had a choice but it was a conditioned choice that appears to us a freely made choice. But would we have said no after the glory of God had been revealed to us?

Bolding mine.


Yes. I see glory, but I don't attribute it to any god or gods.

And there are plenty of others who choose a different path than you. Or maybe, with 'limited free will', your god chose that path for them. Ever think of that?

 

[salmoneous]

He did about me (and others). Go back & look.

Why would I want to go back and look? If something inappropriate was said about you, I'm sure you can take care of it without my help...

I was just surprised that you would go making up negative things to say about me. Do someone else's comments justify yours?

 

[jimmiej]

Why would I want to go back and look? If something inappropriate was said about you, I'm sure you can take care of it without my help...

I was just surprised that you would go making up negative things to say about me. Do someone else's comments justify yours?

If you're talking about "broad brushes", you should be concerned no matter who says it.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Amazing how people can "know" that God did not give us many paths to Him. One would think it would not be God's wish for us to demand everyone do as we do, simply because it is the right thing for us personally.

You are not God, stop pretending you know what He would want or what He may have set in place.

So I guess God told us nothing at all. The Bible is fake? What God would tell His people absolutely nothing?

Yet you say, "One would think it would not be God's wish for us to demand everyone do as we do, simply because it is the right thing for us personally." And this is based on ????? It seems you can safely make assumptions, but if anyone mentions Scriptures then forget it.

Jesus, His Son, said there was only one path to salvation. We are to share the good news of Salvation. True, we cannot "demand" that people do so, people have to make this choice on their own. God said, "I set before you life and death, choose life."

 

[jasonpwns]

Well in science if a person who died was hit by some electric current may have a chance to live again? If it was a little often in the death because I read that when he was resurected there was a form of light? I'm just guessing. - runs -

 

[salmoneous]

If you're talking about "broad brushes", you should be concerned no matter who says it.

Why? I responded to a post that made up inappropriate things about me. Especially coming from you, that didn't seem right and I made a small comment. Before making a small comment I was supposed to research and seek out everyone else who had ever said anything inappropriate???

Look, you want to go around making up stuff about people and attacking them, that's your business... but people are going to object to such tactics.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I never said, God had limited free will. And I never said God didnt give us free will. I just view the concept of "free will" differently than you do especially when it comes to our decision to accept the gift of salvation.

Like I said before, we are commanded to evangelize. To proclaim the Gospel. It is not, however, our job to bring people to salvation. We proclaim, the Holy Spirit conditions the heart to the Word and Gospel. God calls who he wills to Him. We do not know who that is so we are commanded to spread the word.

Temporary influence, perhaps. But no one can stop another person from coming to salvation when it is God's will. You are lessening God's sovereignity and ominpotence when you saying that man's free will trumps God's will. When you say that mere mortals can stop Almighty God from drawing sinners to Him then you are saying that God is limited by man and thus putting Him in that same box that you declared that people were doing when they said that Jesus is the only way to salvation.

There is alot of mystery when it comes to how election and free will work together to be sure. But man's free will will never trump God's will. Any suggestion otherwise leads one down the path of Open Theism.

Why would God need to limit free will and decide who will be saved and who won't? Why bother giving any free will at all? Why not just create beings that would worship Him without question?

I believe that it limits God to say that He needs to limit free will in order to get people to believe in Him. People manipulate each other to do things, God doesn't need to do that.

Again, you're putting words in my mouth. I never said that man can stop God from drawing people towards him, what I said was that the actions of man can make people deaf to God's call.

 

[salmoneous]

Jesus, His Son, said there was only one path to salvation.

But he didn't say there was only one way to access that path. That's your belief, not the word of Christ. Paul seemed to think women could access that path via childbirth (see 1 Ti 2:15)

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Based on your posts I know a lot more about it than you. Not everybody agrees with the way your kind likes to twist things.

And I also add, who the hell asked you?

If the Bible is not the Word of God, then how do you have any knowledge of God or His ways.

Many people here say that they believe God feels this way or that way or God would do this or that, but they will not accept any Scripture. So what are their beliefs about God based on?

 

[jimmiej]

Why? I responded to a post that made up inappropriate things about me. Especially coming from you, that didn't seem right and I made a small comment. Before making a small comment I was supposed to research and seek out everyone else who had ever said anything inappropriate???

Look, you want to go around making up stuff about people and attacking them, that's your business... but people are going to object to such tactics.

But you object only with the side of the argument you disagree with. Seems a bit disingenuous. You saw the post I was responding to. It was highlighted right above mine. No research needed. If generalization is wrong, it's wrong for both sides of the argument.

 

[aquinas]

Why would God need to limit free will and decide who will be saved and who won't? Why bother giving any free will at all? Why not just create beings that would worship Him without question?

I believe that it limits God to say that He needs to limit free will in order to get people to believe in Him. People manipulate each other to do things, God doesn't need to do that.

Again, you're putting words in my mouth. I never said that man can stop God from drawing people towards him, what I said was that the actions of man can make people deaf to God's call.

OK, how can a person's actions deafen a person to God's call? Again, you are saying that man can get in the way of God's will for salvation.

Why did God harden Pharoah's heart? Why did God love Jacob but hate Esau?

Election and manipulation are not interchangeable words or concepts.

 

[Fitswimmer]

So I guess God told us nothing at all. The Bible is fake? What God would tell His people absolutely nothing?

Yet you say, "One would think it would not be God's wish for us to demand everyone do as we do, simply because it is the right thing for us personally." And this is based on ????? It seems you can safely make assumptions, but if anyone mentions Scriptures then forget it.

Jesus, His Son, said there was only one path to salvation. We are to share the good news of Salvation. True, we cannot "demand" that people do so, people have to make this choice on their own. God said, "I set before you life and death, choose life."

Nobody said that the Bible was fake, but only questioned that the Bible and that message was the only one God sent. I have a Muslim co-worker that would say the exact same things that you do about the Koran and the message God sent there. He is just as sure that he is right as you are sure that you are right.