It Looks Like the Death Numbers are Being Inflated

[Lynne M]

Isn’t this the same as what they would do for the flu or pneumonia? Example; person with cancer comes down with pneumonia and dies. Do they die of pneumonia even though they have been battling cancer? I don’t mean this as argumentative I’m truly asking

You're right, this is what I meant when I said people are seeing conspiracy theories everywhere. Sure, the person may have had cancer that would soon kill them, but you bet if they get a serious infectious disease, it will hasten their end. So, the infectious disease goes on the death certificate as a cause of death or a contributing factor. And no one would think twice about it if it were the flu.

It was originally thought that COVID-19 only affected the lungs. It's now known that it can damage other organs: heart, brain, kidneys, even the skin. In NYC, they've been seeing crazy high numbers of cardiac arrest calls to the EMS. Normally it's 60-ish per day; once the epidemic kicked off it shot up and is now running around 300 a day. Hospitals are learning to test people who come in with a suspected heart attack because a lot of them are positive for coronavirus. So. Given that we know COVID can damage the heart, is it wrong to put COVID on the death certificate if a person who's known to be infected with COVID has a cardiac arrest? No; it would be misleading to not list that as a contributing cause.

There's no valid reason to inflate the numbers of deaths. Or to suppress the number, either. It's valuable scientific data that scientists use in learning ways to control this thing and learning what it does to people, and for that reason it's a number that doctors, coroners and medical examiners want to get right.

 

[maddiel]

Isn’t this the same as what they would do for the flu or pneumonia? Example; person with cancer comes down with pneumonia and dies. Do they die of pneumonia even though they have been battling cancer? I don’t mean this as argumentative I’m truly asking

Death certificates usually list anything that contributes to death. Old death certificates are really useful documents for researching genealogy so I have looked up a number of my ancestor's death certificates. On my maternal great grandmother's, for example, it lists hypostatic pneumonia as the cause of death, with chronic myocarditis as an underlying condition and a fractured hip as an additional significant condition. She died back in the 1950s. I recall that when my paternal grandfather died about 25 years ago, it was very important to ensure he had an autopsy to document that silicosis was a contributing factor to his death by pneumonia, since he had been a coal miner and documenting it made my grandmother eligible for enhanced survivor benefits.

M.

 

[Darklord77]

It's being investigated but to date not much has come out that seems to back up the theory. Interim it seems like we would get more accomplished if we dealt with the known deficiencies (accurate testing) as opposed to the possibilities.

These two topics are not mutually exclusive. Understanding its exact origin and accurate testing are both important in my opinion. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence that supports the lab theory.

 

[Darklord77]

There's no valid reason to inflate the numbers of deaths. Or to suppress the number, either.

Plenty of reasons. Financial incentives exist to admit a Covid case to the hospital. Even more financial incentive for a hospital to put the person on a ventilator. I'm not saying this is swaying a doctor's decision on treatment. What I am saying is there is a reason for bean counters to manipulate past death records to now say they were Covid related. Likely? Maybe, maybe not. Possible? Absolutely.

On the other hand there is a reason to suppress numbers. Some people want to get everything open at any cost no matter what the health concerns are. Questioning these numbers as inflated could be a way of tipping their political leader into doing so.

 

[NYCgrrl]

These two topics are not mutually exclusive. Understanding its exact origin and accurate testing are both important in my opinion. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence that supports the lab theory.

They are both important for different branches of the sciences with some overlapping. From my POV it's more important to find a solution to the accurate testing problem both from a medical and economic stance than to spend equal time or funds searching if this is bio-terrorism by another country that (as one theory goes) started the testing on their own people.
Fix, first, history/blame assignment later.
Proceeding to remove the shutdown policies w/o having a check for the actions is akin to using people as canaries in a coal mine. Dead people or those left physically scarred by Covid 19 cost money, as opposed to making it.

 

[disneydreamer781]

 

[indimom]

Plenty of reasons. Financial incentives exist to admit a Covid case to the hospital. Even more financial incentive for a hospital to put the person on a ventilator. I'm not saying this is swaying a doctor's decision on treatment. What I am saying is there is a reason for bean counters to manipulate past death records to now say they were Covid related. Likely? Maybe, maybe not. Possible? Absolutely.

On the other hand there is a reason to suppress numbers. Some people want to get everything open at any cost no matter what the health concerns are. Questioning these numbers as inflated could be a way of tipping their political leader into doing so.

What financial incentives exist to admit a Covid case to the hospital?
What are the financial incentive to put a person on a ventilator?
What is the reason for the bean counters to manipulate past death records to now say they were Covid related?
And who are these "bean counters" who can change a cause of death on a death certificate?

 

[Darklord77]

What financial incentives exist to admit a Covid case to the hospital?
What are the financial incentive to put a person on a ventilator?
What is the reason for the bean counters to manipulate past death records to now say they were Covid related?
And who are these "bean counters" who can change a cause of death on a death certificate?

13k for a Covid hospital admission.
39k for a Covid patient going on a ventlator
I think those amounts answer the question of for what reason some past deaths are being re-categorized as Covid probables.

 

[monsterkitty]

13k for a Covid hospital admission.
39k for a Covid patient going on a ventlator
I think those amounts answer the question of for what reason some past deaths are being re-categorized as Covid probables.

13k if the person has insurance. And if the person does not have insurance or adequate insurance then the hospital eats the rest because the person is now out of work and has no income.

If a death has been re-categorized as Covid possible, could it be that they've gone back because they now recognize that many of the heart attacks, strokes, and kidney failures have actually been caused by the virus. Or perhaps the person was tested but the test did not come back before they died. There are many reasons that they go back and recategorize the cause of death.

 

[DisLiss]

I don’t know about inflated or if it makes much of a difference if any, but I have read that if a person has Covid-19 it’s added to those numbers even if it wasn’t the primary cause.

Typically if someone dies with more than one illness/condition/injury, they will put down more than one item on the death certificate. There are lines for both the main cause of death and any possible underlying factor. If someone had both cancer and COVID-19, it is perfectly acceptable to indicate that the COVID-19 was a contributing factor because becoming so ill with that virus could very well have sped up their death.
This is not way of handling the records is neither unusual nor is it new. My state, for instance, started issuing official death certificates in the early 1900s and they gave a line for a secondary cause right from the very beginning.

 

[Darklord77]

If a death has been re-categorized as Covid possible, could it be that they've gone back because they now recognize that many of the heart attacks, strokes, and kidney failures have actually been caused by the virus.

So basically they are doing an advanced form of guessing? Meteorologists do the same thing. I'm a hard facts type person. Anything is "possible."

 

[MrsPete]

Do I believe "they" are inflating the C-19 death numbers? Maybe.

Here's something I know for sure: My grandmother was quite healthy -- for age 99 2/3 -- but suddenly she developed a blood clot. She had a "screen" put into a vein, and she couldn't bounce back from the minor procedure. She ended up with pneumonia, which killed her. Cause of death: Lung cancer. No mention of the blood clot or the pneumonia.

How does this make any sense? In the hospital, while they were treating the blood clot, they found that she had the barest beginnings of lung cancer. She died only days later, never having made contact with a cancer doctor. Her doctor said that anyone who has lung cancer -- even if it isn't the cause of death -- officially dies of lung cancer.

I hate-hate-hate cigarettes, but this isn't an honest way to report things.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

The doctor on Trumps team, I believe her name is Birks, admitted that they have been using covid as the cause of death in lots of instances where the person did not die from covid.

Source? Link?

I agree that, even if a person has whatever fatal disease, and also has COVID-19, then COVID -19 will be listed as one of the causes of the death.

 

[rkstocke5609]

It wouldn’t surprise me if the amount of $$$$ each state will receive in assistance from the Federal government (FEMA & other avenues) might likely be tied to the number of COVID-19 related hospitalizations and deaths. You don’t need to look any further than that — follow the money.

 

[cobright]

um, no, not a Disney bus driver. I have no idea why you would even think that. Idiotic thread? Wow. Do you honestly think it’s okay to falsify death certificates?

We question the reliability of the source.

1. Your son has a personal relationship with two people who have died within the last month? that's uncanny right there.
2. Since these friends of your son have died, their family (presumably) felt the need to show your son their physical death certificates? That's a really weird conversation starter.

Not only that, but cdc pandemic protocol requires a positive viral or antibodies test for each reported pandemic death, it's not determined by what the medical examiner lists as cause of death on a death certificate.

What you or your son are making here is what's generally considered an "extraordinary claim" and it therefor requires extraordinary proof in order to be taken seriously. Frankly, a lot doesn't add up.

There is an enormous push by those with a financial and political interest in sewing mistrust in the system. They would benefit from getting business restrictions removed even at the cost of unnecessary deaths.

 

[sam_gordon]

13k for a Covid hospital admission.
39k for a Covid patient going on a ventlator
I think those amounts answer the question of for what reason some past deaths are being re-categorized as Covid probables.

Wouldn't those be the same amount regardless of what the ailment is? Why does a cause of death matter one bit on what a hospital charges?

 

[SamFaniam]

The doctor on Trumps team, I believe her name is Birks, admitted that they have been using covid as the cause of death in lots of instances where the person did not die from covid.

In fact, she said just the opposite.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...s-about-coronavirus-deaths-being-exaggerated/

 

[monsterkitty]

So basically they are doing an advanced form of guessing? Meteorologists do the same thing. I'm a hard facts type person. Anything is "possible."

Health care professionals within the last month or so have now recognized what they thought were merely stroke or heart attack patients are truly covid patients. They are now going back and testing those they thought were stroke or heart attack patients and finding that they have Covid and that is what caused the damage. It's also causing blood clots and kidney issues.

Basically what I'm saying is now they have discovered this, could the possibly be going back and testing those recent deaths to see if the were positive for covid?

 

[Lehuaann]

Source? Link?

I agree that, even if a person has whatever fatal disease, and also has COVID-19, then COVID -19 will be listed as one of the causes of the death.

“The federal governing administration is classifying the deaths of sufferers infected with the coronavirus as COVID-19 fatalities, no matter of any underlying wellbeing concerns that could have contributed to the loss of someone’s life.

The federal government is classifying the deaths of patients infected with the coronavirus as COVID-19 deaths, regardless of any underlying health issues that could have contributed to the loss of someone's life.

Dr. Deborah Birx, the response coordinator for the White House coronavirus task force, said the federal government is continuing to count the suspected COVID-19 deaths, despite other nations doing the opposite.

"There are other countries that if you had a pre-existing condition, and let's say the virus caused you to go to the ICU [intensive care unit] and then have a heart or kidney problem," she said during a Tuesday news briefing at the White House. "Some countries are recording that as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death.

"The intent is ... if someone dies with COVID-19 we are counting that," she added.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bi...avirus-as-covid-19-deaths-regardless-of-cause

 

[monsterkitty]

Wouldn't those be the same amount regardless of what the ailment is? Why does a cause of death matter one bit on what a hospital charges?

There was a Facebook post going around that stated hospitals were receiving 13k for a positive test and 39k for those on a ventilator. IT was based on an interview on a news. What the post failed to mention is that this is this was supposedly for Medicare patients. Not every person who has covid is on Medicare. Also, different hospital systems charge different prices for the care. Frankly, a charge for only 13k or 39k is pretty low for the care they are requiring. I do not believe for one moment that a hospital would choose to put someone on a vent for a mere 39k from Medicare. Heck, my bill for my ankle surgery was 19k and I was out of the hospital 7 hours after I entered.