Is "Walking a reservation" unethical?

[SuzanneSLO]

1. Walking reservations.

2. Throwaway rooms.

3. GAC (before DAS)

4. Booking multiple Anna/Elsa or 7DMT at 60 day booking window.

5. Both adults getting ride swap passes in conjunction with fastpasses thereby creating more fastpasses.

There are all types of inefficiencies in the system because it's a practical impossibility to make broad rules systems that fits all situations.

Is it unethical to take advantage of the inefficiencies? The bottom line is that if you choose not to do so, you're giving an advantage to someone else and there is always someone else that will use the rules to their advantage.

The better question: is it unethical/intolerable for my family to not use this rule and instead, let it be used against us?

GAC is an example of the plain fact that Disney can and will change their rules if the exceptions start to distort the entire system.

In the meantime, if it's a rule, then the loopholes are allowed. Or, looked at another way, unless or until walking reservations or other loopholes distort the system to the point Disney decides to change the rule, it is the way it is. You might say that if you want the rule changed, the best method to do so is to help overuse the loophole. Do your part to change reservation walking by walking reservations. Or sonething.

I would argue that the abuse of the GAC policies by claiming a handicap you did not have or hiring a handicapped person to give you a tour was not merely taking advantage of the inefficiencies of the system. Both actions were contrary to Disney's rules.

-- Suzanne

 

[SuzanneSLO]

They already do this for almost every situation including different resorts and different room types or categories. IMO it's far more fair than holding time one doesn't plan to use or there's a good chance they won't. No one would be losing a reservation if they made what they needed and not something they didn't need/plan to use. As people are now learning, there is a downside in that there is often no availability due to this situation. It also decreases calls and interactions with MS, saving money on the fees as well.

As you know, with a timeshare, Owners don't have the luxury to sit back and wait to book until they are 100% certain of their travel plans. To do so risks losing the value of your points entirely.

We have owned for over 10 years and never had to cancel at the last minute, until this year, when it happened twice, first due a last minute stomache bug and then due to a chronic condition with our dog. We are still trying to understand how and when we will vacation in the future. Yet, I booked our "usual" trip for next year and will cross my fingers that we can go. Sorry if you think this is unethical behavior. -- Suzanne

 

[beer dave]

As you know, with a timeshare, Owners don't have the luxury to sit back and wait to book until they are 100% certain of their travel plans. To do so risks losing the value of your points entirely.

We have owned for over 10 years and never had to cancel at the last minute, until this year, when it happened twice, first due a last minute stomache bug and then due to a chronic condition with our dog. We are still trying to understand how and when we will vacation in the future. Yet, I booked our "usual" trip for next year and will cross my fingers that we can go. Sorry if you think this is unethical behavior. -- Suzanne

Right-- I am fairly certain of when my kids will have off school next year, but until the 16/17 calendar comes out, i'm kind of guessing. last year, they changed one of the holidays from a friday off to the following monday off at about 6 months to our food and wine trip. good luck re booking that one.

 

[ziravan]

I would argue that the abuse of the GAC policies by claiming a handicap you did not have or hiring a handicapped person to give you a tour was not merely taking advantage of the inefficiencies of the system. Both actions were contrary to Disney's rules.

-- Suzanne

I would agree except the rules, in this case the federal ones, prevented asking about disabilities and that's the loophole in question. The fix was designed to make the effort to exploit the system too burdensome for anyone not truly in need.

That said, you make an argument why Disney closed the GAC advantage but hadn't necessarily moved against other loopholes: in the case of GAC there was also an element of dishonesty involved with taking advantage of that system's inefficiencies.

 

[crisi]

Personally, I've always liked Kant's Categorial Imperative to help figure out if something is ethical - as yourself "if everyone did that, what would happen"

My belief is that if everyone walked reservations, the system would 1) cost more and 2) become fundamentally unusable as people walked farther and farther back to get what they wanted. Neither are good outcomes for the membership as a whole, though an individual walking a reservation creates a good outcome for them as an individual, ergo, according to Kant, unethical.

Ethics is only tangentially related to whether something is legal (or in this case, permitted, since Disney does not set down law).

 

[ziravan]

Personally, I've always liked Kant's Categorial Imperative to help figure out if something is ethical - as yourself "if everyone did that, what would happen"

My belief is that if everyone walked reservations, the system would 1) cost more and 2) become fundamentally unusable as people walked farther and farther back to get what they wanted. Neither are good outcomes for the membership as a whole, though an individual walking a reservation creates a good outcome for them as an individual, ergo, according to Kant, unethical.

Ethics is only tangentially related to whether something is legal (or in this case, permitted, since Disney does not set down law).

If everybody took advantage of the loophole, they'd close the loophole.

In fact, there are probably so few users of this loophole that it is statistically insignificant (although operationally it could be very significant if YOU were the one that didn't get the room as a result).

How many DVC owners frequent a message board or other forum enough to learn about walking reservations? Of those, how many actually walk reservations?

My guess is well under 5% of DVC owners have walked reservations in the last 2 years.

If you're going to apply Kant, the follow through would lead to rule change before DVC allowed the drags on the system that you predict.

More to the point, if I'm acting as if my will is the formation of universal law, then walking reservations serves my imperative for the purpose of encouraging everybody towards a fuller understanding of how DVC works, loopholes and all.

 

[Dean]

As you know, with a timeshare, Owners don't have the luxury to sit back and wait to book until they are 100% certain of their travel plans. To do so risks losing the value of your points entirely.

We have owned for over 10 years and never had to cancel at the last minute, until this year, when it happened twice, first due a last minute stomache bug and then due to a chronic condition with our dog. We are still trying to understand how and when we will vacation in the future. Yet, I booked our "usual" trip for next year and will cross my fingers that we can go. Sorry if you think this is unethical behavior. -- Suzanne

I would argue that such is the nature of timeshares in general and DVC in particular. For Marriott one has to book right at 12 or 13 months out to get the high demand options. For Bluegreen, most of the top options are gone when the 11 month booking window opens having gone to VIP owners who did the wait list. Not unethical, you didn't book not planning to use, you booked with honest uncertainty. That's completely different than walking. And to be clear, I don't have a problem with members using the system as it's allowed, the issue I have is with DVC allowing it. IMO there are no personal situations that change what should happen and to be honest, that includes illness and the like. Hurricanes and the like are different because it's spelled out and consistent with set rules, the problem with "flexibility" is it's variable and inconsistent.

 

[DebbieB]

Member Services has allowed it for several years, so I would not call it unethical. If it was against the rules, then would have stopped it by now.

 

[Dean]

If everybody took advantage of the loophole, they'd close the loophole.

In fact, there are probably so few users of this loophole that it is statistically insignificant (although operationally it could be very significant if YOU were the one that didn't get the room as a result).

How many DVC owners frequent a message board or other forum enough to learn about walking reservations? Of those, how many actually walk reservations?

My guess is well under 5% of DVC owners have walked reservations in the last 2 years.

If you're going to apply Kant, the follow through would lead to rule change before DVC allowed the drags on the system that you predict.

That's my point, that they should change the rule to ALL changes to be a cancelation and rebooking. That ways it's consistent for all system changes and it would lead to admin savings. Now it's inconsistent because a change of dates could be accomplished without canceling if an only if it was the same unit type but a change of unit size, category or resort can't. But then I feel one should have to have the extra points to wait list and not be able to substitute directly either.

 

[kristenrice]

I just picked up a room tonight, thanks to someone's "walk"...

I'm trying to get a standard 2BR at BWV for a Sat-Sat in October using transferred points. Since I have to call in order to make the reservation, that first night is always booked by the time I call at 9am. Yesterday (the day the 11 month window opened), I called and got on the waitlist for the first three nights. (We want to set it up as a split stay because part of our group cannot book until 7 months out and we don't know what will be available*). I was toying with the availability tool tonight and lo and behold, the Saturday night was available! I snagged it and I am hoping to repeat the process tomorrow.


*The "rest" of the group (my family of 4) wants a standard 1BR but since we own at AKV/HHI, I can't book us until the 7 month window. We'd like to stay at the BWV for at least part of the stay which is why we are planning on waitlists of 3 and 4 nights. We figured that there is a far better chance of getting a 1BR standard view at 8am at the 7 month window than a 2BR standard.

 

[crisi]

If everybody took advantage of the loophole, they'd close the loophole.

In fact, there are probably so few users of this loophole that it is statistically insignificant (although operationally it could be very significant if YOU were the one that didn't get the room as a result).

How many DVC owners frequent a message board or other forum enough to learn about walking reservations? Of those, how many actually walk reservations?

My guess is well under 5% of DVC owners have walked reservations in the last 2 years.

If you're going to apply Kant, the follow through would lead to rule change before DVC allowed the drags on the system that you predict.

More to the point, if I'm acting as if my will is the formation of universal law, then walking reservations serves my imperative for the purpose of encouraging everybody towards a fuller understanding of how DVC works, loopholes and all.

I suspect that they will change the system. Because every year more and more people do it, and it won't take everyone to break the system - just more than are doing it now. And every time someone can't get their reservation at eleven months, you have another person likely to walk their reservation next time. And yes, its a minority of owners, but its a minority of owners that are having a significant impact on availability for certain room types at certain times of year, which decreases member satisfaction.

(And there is no reason other people need to adopt Kant as an ethical model - hedonism is also a valid ethical model )

Disney has a habit of closing loopholes that break the system or cost the Mouse cash. Codes are now tied to an individual so they aren't transferrable. Tickets got tied to fingerprints. Mugs got barcoded. SAB got gated. GAC changed. Fastpass return times got enforced (then replaced with Fastpass+). Resort parking is tied to Magic Bands. Possibly most telling, when day by day booking got too onerous, DVC changed to the +7 you see today. The change is likely to make it more difficult for people who need to change reservations to do so, but we will only have ourselves to blame.

(It doesn't affect me - and won't for a long time, we seldom stay in high demand rooms and don't travel at high demand times - so I'm neither likely to walk, nor to be impacted by those that do walk. Even when I rent my points, I don't rent BWV Standard View during F&W - I don't need the headache).

 

[crisi]

I just picked up a room tonight, thanks to someone's "walk"...

I'm trying to get a standard 2BR at BWV for a Sat-Sat in October using transferred points. Since I have to call in order to make the reservation, that first night is always booked by the time I call at 9am. Yesterday (the day the 11 month window opened), I called and got on the waitlist for the first three nights. (We want to set it up as a split stay because part of our group cannot book until 7 months out and we don't know what will be available*). I was toying with the availability tool tonight and lo and behold, the Saturday night was available! I snagged it and I am hoping to repeat the process tomorrow.


*The "rest" of the group (my family of 4) wants a standard 1BR but since we own at AKV/HHI, I can't book us until the 7 month window. We'd like to stay at the BWV for at least part of the stay which is why we are planning on waitlists of 3 and 4 nights. We figured that there is a far better chance of getting a 1BR standard view at 8am at the 7 month window than a 2BR standard.

I suspect it will be as people "walk forward" - good luck, I've been following your quest since your first post.

 

[Tunseeker1]

Disney has changed a lot over the years as people have mentioned.
DVC point transfers changed when it got abused to the point it only benefited a few, and those few were making a living off of it.

The latest change is to the companies selling dining reservations. A few people were making money off of popular dining reservations and disney shut them down. Ill bet that there will be some changes coming soon.

It will work itself out eventually.
I had to buy some one-use points, so I booked the first 3 days then called in to add on days. If this gaming the system? I booked at earliest time online and called when I got a chance later.

 

[imaginiff]

Disney has changed a lot over the years as people have mentioned.
DVC point transfers changed when it got abused to the point it only benefited a few, and those few were making a living off of it.

The latest change is to the companies selling dining reservations. A few people were making money off of popular dining reservations and disney shut them down. Ill bet that there will be some changes coming soon.

It will work itself out eventually.
I had to buy some one-use points, so I booked the first 3 days then called in to add on days. If this gaming the system? I booked at earliest time online and called when I got a chance later.

I never had to walk a reservation until it started being discussed here on the Disboards. But only for October dates at Epcot resorts. But still....never had a problem getting a standard view room when our only option had been calling the DVC reservation line. I sometimes wonder if all of this self-serve on-line stuff has made things worse. Don't get me wrong, I truly love all of the changes they have made to the DVC site. But I get so tired of people constantly complaining about it....and it is always the same people....on an almost daily basis. Good grief....how many reservations are you trying to make every week anyway? Maybe if people weren't logging in constantly just to see how badly the site is behaving....maybe it would behave better! Wonder what would happen if people didn't check availability constantly all day long just because....and not because they were actually trying to make a reservation?

Tunseeker....did Disney really manage to shut down those folks trying to make money off of the dining reservation system? I think you may be right, as I was able to make reservations at Be our Guest for our spring trip for the first time ever!!!! Was completely shut out since they opened.

There was someone on these boards a couple years back....he somehow created a program where ANYONE could check DVC availability....not just DVC owners....anyone. He was freely posting here on these boards. Some people embraced this robber and thought he was doing a great service. NOT!!! And, unbelievably, someone here STILL credits this thief with being so smart and implies that DVC got their idea for the Resort Availability Tool from him. What a laugh riot. They were developing this for a while. Really got a lot of DVC owners angry that he was providing info to people that were NOT paying DVC members.

So, getting back to "walking" (every time I see this I get the Walking Dead in my head) being unethical...well, it is unfortunately a necessity now. Stinks for those that don't have enough points to do this....but then again, I watched the availability last year and I think if people waitlist right away, they have a good chance, as the "Walkers" drop the days they don't need.

 

[n2mm]

I have to admit that I've tried "walking" a couple of times by one-two days prior to my planned reservation, but guess what? I'm not good at it. Those two times I tried, I ended up keeping those extra days. So my throw away days became my arrival days. I guess there are times when booking a day early might be good, because today the online booking feature is not working so those folks who hoped to get today as the beginning of their trip will be out of luck. I start booking later this week and have been watching how quickly the standard studios at BWV are going and so far by 8:01AM the arrival day has been sold out. This has been every day. The same thing for the BLT standard studios, though some days they have lasted a few minutes longer. I am blessed with both flexibility of my dates and a lot of points.

 

[MJ6987]

A few questions about walking that I don't "get"

1. Say people are booking a week earlier than they actually need the reservation - isn't it likely to be just as difficult to get a reservation for that time as getting it for the time that they actually want it?

2. Why do people call every day to add on a day and knock off the first day? Wouldn't it be just as effective (and less hassle) to phone every few days?

3. Subject to having enough points, can't you just add on the additional days online and then phone at the end to knock off the unwanted days?

 

[ziravan]

A few questions about walking that I don't "get"

1. Say people are booking a week earlier than they actually need the reservation - isn't it likely to be just as difficult to get a reservation for that time as getting it for the time that they actually want it?

2. Why do people call every day to add on a day and knock off the first day? Wouldn't it be just as effective (and less hassle) to phone every few days?

3. Subject to having enough points, can't you just add on the additional days online and then phone at the end to knock off the unwanted days?

1. Multiple bites at the apple. All I need is to secure 7 days once to start walking. If I start walking 2 weeks out and I miss the room at 8am, try again tomorrow.

If I miss on my booking day, off to waitlist.

A dozen or more chances to lock-in in the room is much more favorable odds than 1 shot.

2. Most walking veterans don't call every day, but do as you suggest.

3. That's fine if you're booking five nights. Book for seven and a few days later, knock off the first two. Can't do that if you want 7 nights because that's the most you can book past the window.

 

[CMNJ]

1. I think "walkers" generally start their "walk" when it is easier to book-which could be a week (end of sept vs early oct for F&W) but could be longer (I saw a post previously that AKL CL rooms have had some long walks)

2. I have no idea-theoretically you shouldn't have to call until your last day since if you have that room nobody could book it until your checkout day EXCEPT resorts with fixed weeks since you could book a room type that will be used for a fixed week in the upcoming week/weeks-if you didn't call each day someone booking after you might get the last room avail for the days you really wanted.

3. When you say add the additional days online do you mean after the original reservation is made? You cannot modify your reservation online yourself you must contact member services-you can only cancel and rebook

 

[supersnoop]

A few questions about walking that I don't "get"

1. Say people are booking a week earlier than they actually need the reservation - isn't it likely to be just as difficult to get a reservation for that time as getting it for the time that they actually want it?

2. Why do people call every day to add on a day and knock off the first day? Wouldn't it be just as effective (and less hassle) to phone every few days?

3. Subject to having enough points, can't you just add on the additional days online and then phone at the end to knock off the unwanted days?

2. Yes, as previously mentioned, that works at 11 months with the small risk of fixed-weeks upsetting your plan. Some people try to walk at 7 months, and that really requires a daily walk.
3. Yes, subject to the 7 day limit at the booking threshold. If you only want two days, you could book seven days at five days ahead of time, and then just call to drop the first five days later.

 

[skier_pete]

I don't think it is unethical. Something being ethical involves a moral issue. I don't feel that it is morally wrong to take advantage of a system such as this, even if it possibly means that someone else doesn't get exactly the thing they want. This outcome happens every time I book something through DVC - I take a room that someone somewhere will want at some point. The fact is that walking is really only pertinent for certain types of rooms (usually the low cost ones) and at certain times of years. If I don't get those rooms, it did not ruin my life in any way - it just means I need to use a few more points. I would not be angry with someone for walking and getting it before me.

I recently just "walked" for the first time. I wanted to try a value room at AKV for the first time, and I would've just booked it at 8 AM. However, our desired dates were October 15-19. Because I was going to be away on November 15th, and wasn't sure if I would have access to a computer, I decided to book on the 14th-17th, and then call on the 15th to "walk" by one day. I figured if I waited until 9 AM to call and book on the 15th, I would be SOL. Turned out and I didn't realize this that the 15th was the day the member cruise was up, and I couldn't even get through unitl 2:30 PM. So, if I hadn't booked on the 14th, I would've most certainly been locked out from getting the value room on my dates. This would not have been 100% my fault, as it turned out MS essentially would have "locked me out" of my room category by closing down the phone system for the day. The short version is, the system worked to my advantage this time. Next time, maybe it won't. However, I wouldn't consider it an ethical issue if someone else using the system locks me out of what I want.

In the end - if it TRULY is a problem that people walk, they should close the loophole. When they do that, then we'll have something else to worry about.