Is there such a thing as a non-evangelical Christian church?

jimmiej said:
Me too, but I differ from my pastor and my wife on this.

I have struggled with this for the longest time but it came down in the end for me on whether or not I worship a sovereign God. Either He is sovereign or not there is no middle ground. I believe through what God has revealed to us through His Word that He is sovereign in ALL things.
 
jimmiej said:

Really? We've always been taught just the opposite. There are countless Scriptures in the Bible that suggest that.


Luke 7

20When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?' "

Luke 2

25Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
29"Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
you now dismiss[d] your servant in peace.
30For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
32a light for revelation to the Gentiles
and for glory to your people Israel."

You are citing New Testament references. There is no Bible and no New Testament in Judaism.
 
aquinas said:
Let me just add this. Grace is unmerited favor from God. There is nothing we can do to earn God's grace therefore there is no way we can stay in or out of God's grace. There is no unforgiveable sin. David committed murder and adultery but we see throughout the book of Psalms where he repented and asked to be forgiven. The idea of a special type of sin, i.e. mortal sin, is not a biblically based practice.

Personally I believe in Election. But since we do not know who the elect are then we as Christians are obligated and commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28 to go out and preach the Gospel so those that will be saved will respond to the Word.

Back to the OP and to echo statements made by many on this thread that all churches should be "evangelical" if that are remaining faithful to Scripture.


Ok, we are going to have to just agree to disagree on this one. I think you just hit the nail on the head of where our denominations differ. I do believe in mortal sin. I refuse to believe that just because I have been born-again, I can not fall out of God's grace. If I decided to go and commit some heinous crime tomorrow, I refuse to believe that just because I claimed Jesus Christ as my Savior at some point in my life, that I would still go to Heaven. I do believe that I would go to Heaven, if I was truly sorry, confessed my sin,did a penance, and never commited the sin again, because I do believe God is a forgiving and loving God and that no sin is unforgiveable. But if I was not repentent, I think I would be heading to eternal damnation regardless of being born-again at an earlier time in my life. I believe God would be wanting to welcome me in to Heaven, but I would have to be repentant. We can go back and forth for eternity about if this is in scripture or not...but I am not gonna waiver on this. That said, I think evangelical born-again Christians like yourself are good Christians, and like me , outside of mortal sin you are saved, because God loves all of his children. I respect your beliefs, but I thank God that I live in the United States of America and am free to practice my own beliefs. And I thank God that JennyMominRi is able to choose her beliefs as a Jew which I respect as a religion that worships Good and not evil.

I think we are all good people in our religions...I think that a lot of atheists are good people, that have just not been educated or educated properly in religion, and God loves them equally and desparately wants them to find Him. ( sidenote - to the atheist who posted earlier in this thread, who said that when people hear she is atheist they are all over her about coming to church - it's like if you loved to read and you met someone who's parents had never taught them to read, you would want to teach them to read because you would know unequivacally that they would be happier if they could read...that is why people are attracted to you and trying to invite you to church. ) That said, I think that people who who are in a 2 faith marriage, and say, "we are not going to eduacate our children in religion, because we want them to choose what they want to believe when they are grown". that is like saying, "we are not going to teach our children to read, because my husband likes fiction, and I like non-fiction...so they can choose when they are older if they want to learn to read". Guess what? that kid ain't gonna choose either fiction or non'fiction...cause they can't read!!!!!

Anyway, I'm tired of typing, as I'm sure anyone who read all of this is tired of reading...so if you want to go head to head on where scripture talks about God's grace, I'm ready...but I'll save it for another post. :)
 

my4kids said:
I think we are all good people in our religions...I think that a lot of atheists are good people, that have just not been educated or educated properly in religion, and God loves them equally and desparately wants them to find Him. ( sidenote - to the atheist who posted earlier in this thread, who said that when people hear she is atheist they are all over her about coming to church - it's like if you loved to read and you met someone who's parents had never taught them to read, you would want to teach them to read because you would know unequivacally that they would be happier if they could read...that is why people are attracted to you and trying to invite you to church. ) That said, I think that people who who are in a 2 faith marriage, and say, "we are not going to eduacate our children in religion, because we want them to choose what they want to believe when they are grown". that is like saying, "we are not going to teach our children to read, because my husband likes fiction, and I like non-fiction...so they can choose when they are older if they want to learn to read". Guess what? that kid ain't gonna choose either fiction or non'fiction...cause they can't read!!!!!

Anyway, I'm tired of typing, as I'm sure anyone who read all of this is tired of reading...so if you want to go head to head on where scripture talks about God's grace, I'm ready...but I'll save it for another post. :)

To add a slightly different POV to this.I am in a household where kids do have their choice about religion. One identifies with Judaism,one with Christianity and one with Athiesm... Honestly all 3 choices are fine with me..WHy..Because Judaism is focused on action and not beliefs...Judaism does not teach that other must believe the way do to be saved... It teaches that it is what we do in life and with life that counts...As long as my kids grow up to be good,productive member of society who do the best that they can,I am fine with that..It is not important that they share my belief,although, I will admit that I'm happy that DS identifies with Judaism most
 
JennyMominRI said:
To add a slightly different POV to this.I am in a household where kids do have their choice about religion. One identifies with Judaism,one with Christianity and one with Athiesm... Honestly all 3 choices are fine with me..WHy..Because Judaism is focused on action and not beliefs...Judaism does not teach that other must believe the way do to be saved... It teaches that it is what we do in life and with life that counts...As long as my kids grow up to be good,productive member of society who do the best that they can,I am fine with that..It is not important that they share my belief,although, I will admit that I'm happy that DS identifies with Judaism most


I understand your POV. But you are no doubt at least discussing with them what you believe, and you are very well versed on other religions (especially Catholicism) so you can give other points of view. So in my analogy, you HAVE taught your kids how to read, but not told them WHAT to read. My statement was more directed to the people that do not discuss or practice ANY religion at home (whether or not they were educated themselves) and think their kids will choose a religion when they are grown. If they know NOTHING about any religion...it will be much harder for them to start when they are grown .
 
JennyMominRI said:
Jimmie,those verses are from the NT,Your bible and are not part of Jewish scripture....Jews were not and are not waiting for a savior
What exactly would Jews want to be *saved* from as there is no Hell, no concept of eternal torment

The man in the story (Simeon) was a Jew.

As I said before, there are countless OT prophecies of a forthcoming Messiah. Daniel 9, Isaiah 53, Micah 7. I did a quick google search & found these:

http://www.cynet.com/Jesus/prophecy/ntquoted.htm

http://www.konig.org/messianic.htm

Jenny, when Jesus returns (humor me for a moment), what will the Jews think. I always thought the Jews would say, "Finally, our Messiah!"

Here is an OT reference to Hell/eternal torment:

Deuteronomy 32

22 For a fire has been kindled by my wrath,
one that burns to the realm of death below.
It will devour the earth and its harvests
and set afire the foundations of the mountains.
 
/
jimmiej said:
The man in the story (Simeon) was a Jew.

As I said before, there are countless OT prophecies of a forthcoming Messiah. Daniel 9, Isaiah 53, Micah 7. I did a quick google search & found these:

http://www.cynet.com/Jesus/prophecy/ntquoted.htm

http://www.konig.org/messianic.htm

Jenny, when Jesus returns (humor me for a moment), what will the Jews think. I always thought the Jews would say, "Finally, our Messiah!"

Here is an OT reference to Hell/eternal torment:

Deuteronomy 32

22 For a fire has been kindled by my wrath,
one that burns to the realm of death below.
It will devour the earth and its harvests
and set afire the foundations of the mountains.


I understand Simeon claimed to be a Jew.....I can go through your supposed messianic prophecies one at a time if you would like...I believe of the top of my head that the Isaiah propehcy is the suffering servant prophecy..If so the suffering servant is identified many times in the Tanakh as the people Israel

Christians and Jews view different verses as Messianic with many of the verses Christians claim are messianic are not recognized by Jews at all...Take for example the Virgin Birth prophecy ,which does not even exist in the Tanakh..
Jews do not have a concept of Hell..The word Hell does not appear in the Tanakh
edited to add ,your version of Deuteronomy reads differently from the Tanakhs verses in devarim and the words*realm of death* are not there...That entire chapter is also full of allegory
 
my4kids said:
I think we are all good people in our religions...I think that a lot of atheists are good people, that have just not been educated or educated properly in religion, and God loves them equally and desparately wants them to find Him. ( sidenote - to the atheist who posted earlier in this thread, who said that when people hear she is atheist they are all over her about coming to church - it's like if you loved to read and you met someone who's parents had never taught them to read, you would want to teach them to read because you would know unequivacally that they would be happier if they could read...that is why people are attracted to you and trying to invite you to church. ) That said, I think that people who who are in a 2 faith marriage, and say, "we are not going to eduacate our children in religion, because we want them to choose what they want to believe when they are grown". that is like saying, "we are not going to teach our children to read, because my husband likes fiction, and I like non-fiction...so they can choose when they are older if they want to learn to read". Guess what? that kid ain't gonna choose either fiction or non'fiction...cause they can't read!!!!!

Wait, you actually believe that you unequivacally KNOW that people (specifically atheists) would be happier if they found God and went to church?? Just because YOU are happier that way does not mean anyone else will be. I don't begrudge your happiness but don't assume to know what will make me happy.

Assuming most atheists are atheists because they are ignorant about religion is kind of insulting.
 
That said, I think that people who who are in a 2 faith marriage, and say, "we are not going to eduacate our children in religion, because we want them to choose what they want to believe when they are grown". that is like saying, "we are not going to teach our children to read, because my husband likes fiction, and I like non-fiction...so they can choose when they are older if they want to learn to read". Guess what? that kid ain't gonna choose either fiction or non'fiction...cause they can't read!!!!!

I have to disagree with this. I was raised in no religion and was told I can choose whatever I wanted. And I didn't chose "nothing", I chose a certain faith.

Having no religion in my unbringing only made me more curious. So in my adulthood I studied various faiths in a long soul searching journey before settling in the Episcopal faith. Having no religion in my childhood did not make me ignorant or uneducated. If anything, it made me more open to various faiths because I had no indoctrination clouding my views.
 
JennyMominRI said:
I understand Simeon claimed to be a Jew.....I can go through your supposed messianic prophecies one at a time if you would like...I believe of the top of my head that the Isaiah propehcy is the suffering servant prophecy..If so the suffering servant is identified many times in the Tanakh as the people Israel

Christians and Jews view different verses as Messianic with many of the verses Christians claim are messianic are not recognized by Jews at all...Take for example the Virgin Birth prophecy ,which does not even exist in the Tanakh..
Jews do not have a concept of Hell..The word Hell does not appear in the Tanakh
edited to add ,your version of Deuteronomy reads differently from the Tanakhs verses in devarim and the words*realm of death* are not there...That entire chapter is also full of allegory

Fair enough. I'm still blown away by your comment that Jews have never looked for a Savior/Messiah. I mentioned this to my Bible Study teacher and he said he'd never heard of such. Live and learn!
 
jimmiej said:
Fair enough. I'm still blown away by your comment that Jews have never looked for a Savior/Messiah. I mentioned this to my Bible Study teacher and he said he'd never heard of such. Live and learn!
Ahhhh..therein lies the problem..Jews are looking for a Messiah but a Messiah is not a savior....Our messiah has a different purpose from the Christian one..Yours is to save yourself from the consequence of sin IE eternal damnation...The Jewish messiah has nothing to do with sin, damnation,or where you go when you die
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but for a long period of time, were not the Jewish people living under repression from different government regimes throughout time. I have heard the savior they were looking for would free them from this oppression. Or at least free them in some sense of the word.
 
Saxsoon said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but for a long period of time, were not the Jewish people living under repression from different government regimes throughout time. I have heard the savior they were looking for would free them from this oppression. Or at least free them in some sense of the word.
You are partially right...Maybe this will explain better then I can

Jewish Messiah
Judaism, unlike the Christianity, does not believe that the Messiah is Jesus. The noun moshiach (translated as messiah) annotatively means "annointed one;" it does not, however, imply "savior." The notion of an innocent, semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought or scripture. In Judaic texts, the term messiah was used for all kings, high priests, certain warriors, but never eschatological figures. In the Tanach, moshiach is used 38 times: two patriarchs, six high priests, once for Cyrus, 29 Israelite kings such as Saul and David. Not once is the word moshiach used in reference to the awaited Messiah. Even in the apocalyptic book of Daniel, the only time moshiach is mentioned is in connection to a murdered high priest. The Dead Sea Scrolls, the Pseudepigrapha, and Apocrypha never mention the Messiah.
The man destined to be the Messiah will be a direct descendant of King David (Isaiah 11:1) through the family of Solomon, David's son (1 Chronicles 22:9-l0). He will cause all the world to serve God together (Isaiah 11:2), be wiser than Solomon (Mishnah Torah Repentance 9:2), greater than the patriarchs and prophets (Aggadah Genesis 67), and more honored than kings (Mishnah Sanhedrin 10), for he will reign as king of the world (Pirkei Eliezer).

Amongst the most basic missions that the Messiah will accomplish during his lifetime (Isaiah 42:4) are to:


Oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Third Temple, in the event that it has not yet been rebuilt (Michah 4:1 and Ezekiel 40-45)

Gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them home to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13)

Influence every individual of every nation to abandon and be ashamed of their former beliefs (or non-beliefs) and acknowledge and serve only the One True God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9-10; 40:5 and Zephaniah 3:9)

Bring about global peace throughout the world (Isaiah 2:4; 11:5-9 and Michah 4:3-4).
There are over a dozen additional prophecies which the Messiah will also achieve (there is no mention of any “second coming” in the Tanach. In order to avoid identifying the wrong individual as Messiah, the Code of Jewish Law dictates criteria for establishing the Messiah's identity (Mishnah Torah Kings 11:4):
 
JennyMominRI said:
Ahhhh..therein lies the problem..Jews are looking for a Messiah but a Messiah is not a savior....Our messiah has a different purpose from the Christian one..Yours is to save yourself from the consequence of sin IE eternal damnation...The Jewish messiah has nothing to do with sin, damnation,or where you go when you die

Is this why the Jews rejected Jesus? Or is that just a Christian belief?
 
jimmiej said:
Is this why the Jews rejected Jesus? Or is that just a Christian belief?


There are many reasons,the most basic being that he didn't fit the geneology.. Either you meet every single criteria or you are not the messiah..Once he failed to meet one (geneology) he is immediately disqualified.
There have been many who claimed to be the messiah..This is not death worthy... There were many who came much closer than Jesus over the years,Simon Bar Kochba for one.... The fact that Jesus died is also reason enough for disqualification
 
What genelogy did he fail? Where did his lineage in fact disqualify him as Messiah.
 
Saxsoon said:
What genelogy did he fail? Where did his lineage in fact disqualify him as Messiah.
Ok....Jewish geneneology is determined by the biological father... The Messiah must be a biological descendent of Davis through his father.. Jesus,if he is who Chrsitianty claims he is,had no biological father...He had an adoptive father in Joseph,but adoption does not change lineage...It gets even more complicated than that because not only must the messiah descend through David ,but also through Solomen and NOT through Jeconiah who is cursed..

This explains more

One of the simplest requirements for being the Messiah is the lineage. In the Jewish scriptures we see prophecies of a king from David's line sitting on the throne of Israel once more

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. [8] For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: [9] But they shall serve the LORD their G-d, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. (KJV)
David had been given an oath from the Almighty that the throne of Israel would always belong to his line, which we find in the Jewish Bible repeatedly:

Jeremiah 33:17 For thus said HASHEM: There shall not be cut off from David a man who sits on the throne of the House of Israel. [18] And for the Kohanim, the Levites, there will never be cut off a man from before Me who offers elevation-offerings and burns meal-offerings and performs feast-offerings all the days. [19] The word of HASHEM came to Jeremiah, saying: [20] Thus said HASHEM: If you could annul My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that day and night would not come in their proper times, [21] so too could My covenant be annulled with David, My servant, so that he would not have a descendant reigning on his throne, or [My covenant] with the Levites and the Kohanim, My attendants. (Artscroll)

Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. [35] Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. [36] His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. [37] It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. (KJV)
So, from here we see that G-d took an oath that the throne would always belong to David and his descendants. However, the oath was supplemented by another pledge:

1 Chronicles 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. [10] He shall build a house for my name; and he shall be My son, and I [will be] his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever. (KJV)

So we see, any man who would sit on the throne must not only be a descendant of King David, but specifically a descendant of David’s son, Solomon. This requirement was made even more stringent in the days prior to the Babylonian exile. Jeconiah, King of Judah, was a wicked king, and his actions pushed G-d too far. G-d punished Jeconiah, also known as Jehoiachin or Coniah:

Jeremiah 22:24 [As] I live, saith the LORD, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were the signet upon my right hand, yet would I pluck thee thence; [25] And I will give thee into the hand of them that seek thy life, and into the hand [of them] whose face thou fearest, even into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of the Chaldeans. [26] And I will cast thee out, and thy mother that bare thee, into another country, where ye were not born; and there shall ye die. [27] But to the land whereunto they desire to return, thither shall they not return. [28] [Is] this man Coniah a despised broken idol? [is he] a vessel wherein [is] no pleasure? Wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not? [29] O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD. [30] Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man [that] shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah. (KJV)

This devastating curse effectively removes all descendants of Jeconiah from the royal line. So from the verses listed above we see that anyone who would sit as king must be descended from King Solomon but not descended from King Jeconiah. We see that this curse is binding, because after Jeconiah was deposed, instead of the throne being handed to his son, it passed to Zedekiah, his uncle. No descendant of Jeconiah ever held the throne, or ever can hold the throne. His grandson, Zerubbabel, held power granted by G-d, but was never king.

The New Testament makes the messianic claim for Jesus, and as such, the New Testament gives a detailed genealogy in the first chapter of the very first book, the Gospel of Matthew:

Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. [2] Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; [3] And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; [4] And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; [5] And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; [6] And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her [that had been the wife] of Urias; [7] And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; [8] And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; [9] And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; [10] And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias; [11] And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: (KJV)
Matthew defeated his own purpose by including Jeconiah (spelled Jechonias by the KJV) in his listing. Further complicating this matter is the virgin birth, which is claimed by Matthew 1:18-23. Because the virgin birth is substantiated by a misused excerpt of Isaiah (see related essay) there is no reason to believe that it was actually prophesied, and even less to believe it to be true. Furthermore, it defeats the claim that Jesus is the Messiah. In Jewish law, genealogy is traced specifically through the father, not the mother.

Numbers 1:2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of [their] names, every male by their polls; (KJV)

Numbers 1:18 And they assembled all the congregation together on the first [day] of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls. (KJV)
With genealogies in the Bible, we see person A, son of person B, son of person C, etc. This is because Jewish descent is traced through our fathers. If a Levitical priest married a woman from the tribe of Judah, their children would be of the tribe of Levi.

Not having a human father prevents anyone from claiming the throne.
 
Jenny, this is all so fascinating to me! I have been reading with interest because I don't know any Christians that don't believe that the Jewish people were waiting for a Savior and obviously, we all believe that Jesus fits the promise in the Old Testament.
I was on a thread some time ago where I tried to explain why Christianity had roots in Judeaism and I got blasted right before it closed (maybe you remember), so I've shyed away a little. However, I love the discussion. So, I didn't want to leave your last post unanswered by a Christian. I went searching for a lineage explaination. http://www.abecedarian.org/Pages/Lineage.htm
Check this out. :sunny:
 














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