Is there such a thing as a non-evangelical Christian church?

[jimmiej]

When Jesus said you need to be born again - he wasn't speaking of a specific religion you need to be to be saved. He was saying you need to be baptized.

But He said, "You must be born of water AND the Spirit."

 

[mickeyfan2]

But He said, "You must be born of water AND the Spirit."

Jimmie, I see you avoided my question that I asked earlier. Where did Jesus say this had to happen on the earth?

 

[my4kids]

I know a few friends who are athiests that no longer believe in even a creator, let alone Jesus as their savior. I am pretty sure they and many others that left the church were baptised, but no longer in Christ. Will they go to heaven, even though they don't even think Jesus existed? If they were baptised at birth, what is the point, as there is no meaning in it.

I wish baptism were saved till a certain age, then it actually means something. I think there needs to be a conscious decision to accept Christ, not just going through the motions.

That is why we do Confirmation.

 

[Buckalew11]

Jimmie, I see you avoided my question that I asked earlier. Where did Jesus say this had to happen on the earth?

I'm just curious to your beliefs when I ask the question, are you saying you believe that we can choose after death? Or through death you are "born again"? I am not following your thought and am just curious.

When you answer God's calling on earth to believe in what Christ did on the cross, your "eyes are opened" and you are a believer in God's plan of salvation (there was no other reason that Jesus died--yes, they were actually putting him to death for what he stood for but it was the ultimate sacrifice in God's plan).
It doesn't matter what denomination of Christianity you call yourself when you are a follower of Christ. I'm betting there isn't a single denomination out there who has everything "right".

 

[claudia]

And this doesn't happen in Catholicism. Jenny's explination was spot on. While Catholics belive in salvation there is no born again moment. The concept of being 'saved' or 'born again' just doesn't exist in any Catholic church I've been in.

My aunt, who still attends Catholic church, does refer to herself as "born-again". She had a specific day that she made a decision to accept Jesus as her personal savior but being in her 60's at the time and being raised Catholic she decided to stay with her church. As I stated before, it is a decision as opposed to a denomination.

 

[claudia]

Thank you all for your explanations. Unfortunately, nothing has been cleared up for me. I am still as confused as ever. Not that it matters since I know exactly where I belong.

And in the end, that is all that really matters....that we know exactly where we belong

 

[my4kids]

This is another area (some?) evangelicals disagree with Catholics. We believe a person who made a genuine commitment to Christ cannot lose their salvation. We base this on Ephesians 2:8-9, I Corinthians 3:10-14 among others.



I was the one quoting the Scripture you speak of (and I do take it literally), but no one said anything about having to belong to a certain church or denomination. Where'd you get that? One's denomination matters not as far as salvation. It's all about what you do with Jesus, IMO.

I agree with you, and I didn't mean to single you out...I guess I am a little testy on that issue since I have had more than one Born-Again from the non-denominational church nearby me tell me that I am not saved or a Christian because I am Catholic.

I know not all Evangelicals or Born-Agains (remember as a Catholic, I too consider myself born-again) believe this, just as not all Catholics are crazy and see the Blessed Mother in a piece of chocolate and sell it on ebay. (If you have one wacko in a religion of millions, guess what, that is the one you are going to see on the evening news)

 

[mickeyfan2]

I'm just curious to your beliefs when I ask the question, are you saying you believe that we can choose after death? Or through death you are "born again"? I am not following your thought and am just curious.

I am saying that Jesus did not say you had to choose to be saved while on the earth. So those who are not Christian are not doomed for not being saved on earth. I believe that God is too kind to let that happen. I believe that you can be "saved" after your death by some means that we do not know.

So now how do you answer the original queston?

 

[my4kids]

But He said, "You must be born of water AND the Spirit."

Yeah I know - but why do evangelicals think that a Catholic must not have received the spirit? I will tell you right now and for every day of my life that Jesus Christ is my Savior and I want to follow him. I also happen to be Catholic. Am I saved in your view?


Often people miss the fact that baptism gives us new life/new birth because they have an impoverished view of the grace God gives us through baptism, which they think is a mere symbol. But Scripture is clear that baptism is much more than a mere symbol.

In Acts 2:38, Peter tells us, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." When Paul was converted, he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16).

Peter also said, "God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20–21). Peter says that, as in the time of the flood, when eight people were "saved through water," so for Christians, "aptism . . . now saves you." It does not do so by the water’s physical action, but through the power of Jesus Christ’s resurrection, through baptism’s spiritual effects and the appeal we make to God to have our consciences cleansed.

These verses showing the supernatural grace God bestows through baptism set the context for understanding the New Testament’s statements about receiving new life in the sacrament.

 

[Buckalew11]

Well, I disagree with you. I guess that is how I would answer you. Everything in scripture that I read/study tells me different than that. I believe you are to chose while living who you will serve. I think the option of second chances sounds nice but I don;t believe in it.
I don't think God's "kindness" has anything to do with it. God is love and therefore provided a way of salvation. To me, you either choose to believe it or you don't. God doesn't decide for you; you chose yourself. I think if you read the Bible and see how God has worked in the past that you can learn a lot about His nature. We'll never fully understand God because we aren't Him, but we can learn from the past. God's Son was sent for All people but I believe God allows us to choose Him or not.

I am not saying you are wrong, I just don't believe in that and am not sure where you get that belief but you may have sources that I don't know about. However, I think if you think that salvation can happen after death and you don't have to follow Christ here, you yourself can take that risk of waiting til death to be "saved" BUT I would not feel good about leading others in that direction because it may be too late--we just don't know enough about what happens to the soul after death. that is my concern with that belief but you are certainly entitled to it.

 

[newman7501]

I am saying that Jesus did not say you had to choose to be saved while on the earth. So those who are not Christian are not doomed for not being saved on earth. I believe that God is too kind to let that happen. I believe that you can be "saved" after your death by some means that we do not know.

So now how do you answer the original queston?

I am curious what leads you to believe we can be "saved" after death. Yes God is kind, that is why he sent His son to take up our burdens and die on the cross for our sins. Here is an answer I found for you question on gotquestions.org...


Question: "Will there be a second chance for salvation after death?"



Answer: Death is the end of all chances. Hebrews 9:27 tells us that we die, and then face judgment. So, as long as a person is alive, he has a second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. chance to accept Christ and be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 16:31). Once a person dies, there are no more chances. Who would not accept Jesus as Lord and Savior after he dies and stands before Him? Philippians 2:10-11 declares “that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” One day, everyone will bow before Jesus and recognize that He is the Lord and Savior. At that point, though, it is too late for salvation. After death, all that remains for the unbeliever is judgment (Revelation 20:14-15). That is why we must trust in Him in this life.

I know when I first started getting back into my faith and I had a lot of questions about children and say the tribes deep in Africa and South America that have never even heard of God and had a lot of questions and basically was told if they haven't reached the age of accountability(old enough to realize what sin is which is different for everyone) or have never heard about the Gospel and just don't know any better they will not be judged for that and will enter the kingdom of Heaven.

I hope this answers you question.

 

[Buckalew11]

Yeah I know - but why do evangelicals think that a Catholic must not have received the spirit? I will tell you right now and for every day of my life that Jesus Christ is my Savior and I want to follow him. I also happen to be Catholic. Am I saved in your view?


Often people miss the fact that baptism gives us new life/new birth because they have an impoverished view of the grace God gives us through baptism, which they think is a mere symbol. But Scripture is clear that baptism is much more than a mere symbol.

In Acts 2:38, Peter tells us, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." When Paul was converted, he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16).

Peter also said, "God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20–21). Peter says that, as in the time of the flood, when eight people were "saved through water," so for Christians, "aptism . . . now saves you." It does not do so by the water’s physical action, but through the power of Jesus Christ’s resurrection, through baptism’s spiritual effects and the appeal we make to God to have our consciences cleansed.

These verses showing the supernatural grace God bestows through baptism set the context for understanding the New Testament’s statements about receiving new life in the sacrament.

I really don't see differences in what we believe.

 

[mickeyfan2]

I am curious what leads you to believe we can be "saved" after death. Yes God is kind, that is why he sent His son to take up our burdens and die on the cross for our sins. Here is an answer I found for you question on gotquestions.org...


Question: "Will there be a second chance for salvation after death?"



Answer: Death is the end of all chances. Hebrews 9:27 tells us that we die, and then face judgment. So, as long as a person is alive, he has a second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. chance to accept Christ and be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 16:31). Once a person dies, there are no more chances. Who would not accept Jesus as Lord and Savior after he dies and stands before Him? Philippians 2:10-11 declares “that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” One day, everyone will bow before Jesus and recognize that He is the Lord and Savior. At that point, though, it is too late for salvation. After death, all that remains for the unbeliever is judgment (Revelation 20:14-15). That is why we must trust in Him in this life.

I know when I first started getting back into my faith and I had a lot of questions about children and say the tribes deep in Africa and South America that have never even heard of God and had a lot of questions and basically was told if they haven't reached the age of accountability(old enough to realize what sin is which is different for everyone) or have never heard about the Gospel and just don't know any better they will not be judged for that and will enter the kingdom of Heaven.

I hope this answers you question.

Thank you for being the only person to answer the question with more than I don't believe it. I see you do have some avenue for those who never knew Jesus to enter into heaven. This was what I was trying to get at without putting my reasons and personal opinions out. I am Catholic and do believe the above, but there are many who never knew about Jesus who were/are worthy of entering heaven. I also know that many "born-agains" state it must happen on the earth and if not you are doomed. The way you state it is that you can be "saved" after death by Jesus because you did not know him before. This is the kind God that I know and love.

 

[Buckalew11]

Oh, I see where you are coming from... I also hold this belief. However, I have heard people who do not believe in it except for the age of accountability thing. However, if an adult has never heard so they could not reject, why would God allow them to not enter Heaven.
I really thought you were talking second chances for everyone. Sorry.

 

[ead79]

Thank you for being the only person to answer the question with more than I don't believe it. I see you do have some avenue for those who never knew Jesus to enter into heaven. This was what I was trying to get at without putting my reasons and personal opinions out. I am Catholic and do believe the above, but there are many who never knew about Jesus who were/are worthy of entering heaven. I also know that many "born-agains" state it must happen on the earth and if not you are doomed. The way you state it is that you can be "saved" after death by Jesus because you did not know him before. This is the kind God that I know and love.

I think where I would disagree with you is your statement that there are many people who do not know about Jesus that are worthy of entering heaven. It is my belief, based on Scripture, that none of us are worthy of entering heaven. That's why Jesus was sent as a sacrifice for our sins. God can only be around perfection and cannot be near sin, so Jesus' sacrifice cleansed us from sin and made us able to enter heaven. I believe that we cannot earn salvation through good deeds, but that we must instead choose to accept the salvation offered to us by Christ. I do believe that God judges salvation based on a person's heart, so I believe that God has a mechanism to know the hearts of those who have not yet heard the message of the gospel.

 

[tkd lisa]

Yeah I know - but why do evangelicals think that a Catholic must not have received the spirit? I will tell you right now and for every day of my life that Jesus Christ is my Savior and I want to follow him. I also happen to be Catholic. Am I saved in your view?


Often people miss the fact that baptism gives us new life/new birth because they have an impoverished view of the grace God gives us through baptism, which they think is a mere symbol. But Scripture is clear that baptism is much more than a mere symbol.

In Acts 2:38, Peter tells us, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." When Paul was converted, he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16).

Peter also said, "God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20–21). Peter says that, as in the time of the flood, when eight people were "saved through water," so for Christians, "aptism . . . now saves you." It does not do so by the water’s physical action, but through the power of Jesus Christ’s resurrection, through baptism’s spiritual effects and the appeal we make to God to have our consciences cleansed.

These verses showing the supernatural grace God bestows through baptism set the context for understanding the New Testament’s statements about receiving new life in the sacrament.

I consider myself an evangelical Christian. And I have several Catholic friends that I believe have the same beliefs as myself. In my opinion, based on what you have said, I believe you are born again. My belief (based on the scripture) is that Jesus died for all mankind (including those who died before the crucifiction, more on that later). However, that death provided a gift that must be accepted in order to provide the salvation of an individual.

People who say they are "born again" or "saved" are defining the fact that they have made a conscious choice to accept that gift of salvation. Just believing that it happened doesn't accept the gift. As an illustration, if someone bought a box of chocolate and left it on the table for everyone to eat, you wouldn't gain the calories unless you actually took the gift and ate it.

In general (and I know that's dangerous), the Catholic church doesn't emphasize the personal acceptance of the gift. As I said, I know many Catholics who have personally and intentionally accepted the gift of salvation. Because of that, I believe (as best as I can tell) that they will go to heaven. The religion is just the way we live our lives.

A quick digression back to people who died before the crucifiction. I believe that people who lived before Christ's death would be saved by believing in the sacrifice to come (i.e. trusting that that gift would be there). That's pretty well supported in the Old Testament.

Just my two cents worth, but I wanted to specifically respond to the feeling that evangelical Christians believe all Catholics are unsaved.

 

[mickeyfan2]

Oh, I see where you are coming from... I also hold this belief. However, I have heard people who do not believe in it except for the age of accountability thing. However, if an adult has never heard so they could not reject, why would God allow them to not enter Heaven.
I really thought you were talking second chances for everyone. Sorry.

This was my point. So I see we do agree with this.

 

[mickeyfan2]

I think where I would disagree with you is your statement that there are many people who do not know about Jesus that are worthy of entering heaven. It is my belief, based on Scripture, that none of us are worthy of entering heaven. That's why Jesus was sent as a sacrifice for our sins. God can only be around perfection and cannot be near sin, so Jesus' sacrifice cleansed us from sin and made us able to enter heaven. I believe that we cannot earn salvation through good deeds, but that we must instead choose to accept the salvation offered to us by Christ. I do believe that God judges salvation based on a person's heart, so I believe that God has a mechanism to know the hearts of those who have not yet heard the message of the gospel.

But Jesus gave his life for the sins of all, not just those who heard about him. So those who do not know him are cleansed and then God will look at their heart to see if they are worthy to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[ead79]

But Jesus gave his life for the sins of all, not just those who heard about him. So those who do not know him are cleansed and then God will look at their heart to see if they are worthy to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus absolutely died for everyone's sins--mine, the innocent baby that perishes, someone as bad as Hitler, everyone. I believe that Jesus' sacrifice cleanses our sins if we accept that sacrifice and the free gift of salvation. If a person has never heard and thus never had the opportunity to accept the gift of salvation, then I think God is able to examine their hearts and know their beliefs. But if a person has heard the message of the gospel, then I think they have the free will to choose whether or not to accept the gift of salvation.

 

[erinch]

I'm in a hurry...will fill this out later, but for the OP's question:

I'm an ordained Presbyterian Church (USA) minister. I serve as an Associate Executive Presbyter, which means I'm in the office overseeing about 90 of our churches. Our denomination currently features the latest edition of a longrunning series of major doctrinal splits (we tend to go through these about every 30 years or so). Some of us would be more "liberal"--i.e. inclusivity, diversity and being welcoming is important to us, while others are what are self-termed "confessing". The debate at the moment is raging over homosexuality--ordination and relationships. In the past, presenting issues have been abortion, communism and other "isms" of the day. These all tend to be pretty much code words, with the core division being what you might expect at a political convention between "liberals" and the "Christian Right." We're fighting parallel battles on the church front. And, while it might be argued that none of us particularly know much about being "evangelizing," all of the denominations are very good at fighting.

But in almost any region you can find both "more light" Presbyterian Churches and "Confessing" Churches. We don't come all in one stripe. Thank God. If you're interested in PC(USA) or in one of the other "mainlines" (Methodist, Episcopal, Lutheran, American Baptist, United Church of Christ) p.m. me with your location, and I could help you be in touch with denominational folks who could steer you towards one of their congregations which might be a match.

Denominationally, you would find the most "liberal" and least doctrinal would be Unitarian Universalist, or Friends (Quakers)....in particular from the Friends General Conference branch of Quakers. I have friends who are both Jewish and Quaker, and do not find a conflict between the two. Both of these focus on Universal principles of humanitarian values, and a core belief in an Inner Light or Guiding Force. There would be much divergence in how this is experienced and articulated, and to what extent " the historical Jesus" would be identified with "Christ".

Among the mainlines, The United Church of Christ (UCC) and Episcopal would generally be more open and welcoming, and often focused more on social justice than on an agenda that would be "fundamentalist/evangelical." This would vary somewhat by congregation and by region of the country.

Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans and American Baptists all have congregations which are more inclusive and ecumenical (concerned about interfaith issues), and ones which are more "evangelical." You might be wildly happy in one, and miserable in the one 5 miles down the road.

I personally could not be Roman or Orthodox Catholic because of the barring of women from ordained leadership, but many people find a vibrant spirituality in the structure, while preserving their own private beliefs. Catholicism is the most restrictive regarding who may partake at the Communion Table. I've got some friends who are nuns who are some of the most whole and dynamic people I know.

I've got a few friends who are rabbis, and they tell me the same cultural and theological struggles are going on in their brands, with Reform Judaism, of course, being more open than Conservative or Orthodox.

If there's any other info you might need in trying to find a few congregations to try out in your area, give a holler. The big key is to be clear that you're visiting and trying out various options, rather than signing on the dotted line too soon. If they invite you to teach Sunday School and serve on the property committee the 3rd time you visit, run like hell the other direction.