Is the "problem" that DVC is a CRO Bust?

[kimberh]

I was sitting here thinking the same thing. I wonder how successful the friends and family rental promo went? Maybe that was a test to see how well renting directly would work out. This could be done in a simialr fashion with the rental of points to members.

There is still availability for the Family and Friends Rental promo. I received a second email yesterday about it.

 

[MiaSRN62]

The change to DDP was pretty much a response to over use and abuse.

Sammie,
I don't use DDP (use DDE), but was wondering what you meant by this ? I feel disney is really pushing this program so not sure how we're being penalized for abuse or overuse of the system ? Maybe I'm just not understanding your point ? Disney has been even pushing free dining more over the last 2-3 years than I ever recall.

 

[DisDaydreamer]

Maybe this is off-topic, but if CRO really is a "bust", I wonder if DVC has thought of dealing in one-time point rentals (transfers, really) to members only.

If I'm planning a big family get-together and need 200 extra points for one-time use only, the most logical current alternative is to find someone with 200 extra points and pay $12 each for a transfer. If DVC used their re-acquired points to do the same, albeit at a higher rate ($14-15?), I wonder how many people would bite. Even with the higher price, I bet people would do it for the security of dealing with DVC instead of another member.

Probably not worth their time, though when you consider things like administrative costs and the potential negative impact on add-on sales.

Excellent Idea.

I would think this would be well worth their time. What could be easier? And yes, dealing with Disney instead of a stranger would be very enticing.

 

[JimMIA]

Sammie,
I don't use DDP (use DDE), but was wondering what you meant by this ? I feel disney is really pushing this program so not sure how we're being penalized for abuse or overuse of the system ? Maybe I'm just not understanding your point ? Disney has been even pushing free dining more over the last 2-3 years than I ever recall.

I'm not sure what "overuse" means, but there was certainly a ton of abuse of DDP...and it's still going on. There was someone on the DDP board yesterday or the day before bragging about using DDP credits to treat someone who was not on the plan -- which is expressly prohibited, and always has been. The person who got away with the cheat couldn't wait to get back home and go on the DDP board and tell others how to do it.

The biggest abuse was taking advantage of Disney's ineptitude with structuring the program. For a long time, there was no computer distinction between adult credits and child credits, so people who wanted to cheat the system would use their kids $10.99 credits to buy adult $37.99 meals. It took them two years of abuse to fix that part of the program, and when they did, all the people who had been cheating them wailed!

The other big abuse was buying meals for people who were not paying for the plan. People would get one room at rack rate and get DDP and then use those credits for others who were not paying the appropriate room rate (often not even staying onsite), not buying the required park tickets, and not paying for DDP. Disney still doesn't have a good fix for that yet, as we saw with the post alluded to above -- that poster happened to be a DVCer BTW, I believe.

As far as "free" DDP, I think the peak was last summer. They really gave away the farm in '06, and reaped some huge headaches.

But for '07, they made major changes in free DDP. For one thing, they offered it first to UK guests, and then through the Bounce Back promotion. Bounce Back required you to actually book it in person during a WDW onsite stay in Nov-Dec '06 for Aug-Sep of this year. Both of those programs were hugely successful, so when they finally opened free DDP to the general public, it was for a shorter period, much limited availability, and recently-announced major scalebacks on the menus during free dining.

For 2008, there are even more changes coming with free DDP. First of all, the UK offer is already out, and it's for mods and above only -- NO values at all. The appetizer and gratuity have been removed from all DDP for 2008, so those will be off free DDP as well. I think when they finally roll out free DDP for 2008, the availability will be radically cut back from what they have had in recent years. Of course, we could get unlucky, and if a hurricane hits, all bets are off. If that happens, they'll have to really loosen up again.

 

[tjkraz]

Disney has been even pushing free dining more over the last 2-3 years than I ever recall.

The "free dining" was simply a program designed to fill 30,000 hotel rooms during the slowest period of the year. It's the plan itself that was poorly conceived (at least from a financial standpoint) and poorly administered (note the loopholes mentioned.)

If Disney wants to give a family of 4 $100 per day worth of "free" DDP dining under a discount program, that's all well and good. In the end it's no different and releasing discount codes that take the cost of a $350 room down to $250.

 

[MiaSRN62]

The appetizer and gratuity have been removed from all DDP for 2008, so those will be off free DDP as well

Thanks for the detailed explanation Jim (and tkraz). I had no idea about any of that except for the above quote I included. This was the only thing I was aware of because a friend of mine told me. I guess because I don't do the DDP I don't keep up with those threads. Very interesting though.....

 

[DisDaydreamer]

Rob - Normally, I agree with just about everything you say. However, I can assure you that my being upset with this most recent $95 fee has absolutely nothing to do with "DVC entitlement syndrome" or "perk mania".

It has to do with this new fee being symptomatic of a larger DVC problem for us.

It has to do with DVC being more about recruiting new members than servicing their existing ones. And I don't care if my Cell Phone Provider or Cable company does the same thing.

It has to do more with them being worried about finding cash flow solutions for CRO reservations than worrying about shrinking DVC availability windows (hence causing more members to look for WDW non-DVC resort options).

It has to do with DVC housekeeping and maintenence problems, among others (hey, did it ever occur to them that maybe those might be some reasons guests don't want to pay the high DVC rates through CRO?).

It's about changing DVC policies rather than addressing the real issues. We can't hire enough Mousekeepers (because we won't pay them enough) so we'll just change the check in policy to AFTER 4:00. That ought to leave it open enough to stave off complaints. Frankly, I'm tired of the "anonymous" phone calls at 7:00 AM and/or the repeated knocks on the door before 11:00 AM.

It's about refusing to upgrade their computer systems to eliminate rental abuse and waitlist problems as well as the ability to properly track Developer Points.

It's about properly training the Member Service/CM staff so that it doesn't require multiple phone calls to finally get someone that knows the correct answer.

It's about out-sourcing jobs to 3rd parties who could care less about Magic. The recent problem of charging members for Valet parking and what it took to get it resolved is a good example.

Disney markets the heck out of the "Disney Difference" and "Disney Magic"... an image carefully crafted by Disney over generations to reflect quality service and standards that has served their bottom line very well. An image that was very strategically created to tap into the emotional Disney response that began during most people's childhood. Heck, the Disney Institute used to TRAIN other companies on their infamous Disney Service.

Sorry if their maketing plans were successul and people ended up investing emotionally and financially into the spin. Sorry if members/guests want to hold them accountable to the standards that they didn't mind using to get people to sign on the dotted line and that Disney used to willingly hold themselves to.

If we shouldn't "expect" any more from a Disney timeshare than any other timeshare, then I guess we all could have saved a few grand with less expensive timeshare options. Would people be so willing to defend any other timeshare company where people had the same concerns?

So yes, this $95 fee may or may not impact most members and should or should not be considered a perk. There are arguments on both sides. The same could be said for the new Banking Rules. We actually benefited due to the change, but I feel terrible for those that it hurt. So what's next? At the current rate of change, anything is possible.

We love DVC. We really do. We wish we'd done it sooner. We would just like to make sure it's the same Disney Vacation Club that we will end up leaving for our children and grandchildren.

I agree with much of what you are talking about. And I didn't mean to be pointing at you about the mania, but rather the other thread about this issue that has people livid.

I do believe Disney has in fact dealt with the commercial renting problem effectively. Though I wish they would allow 2 transfers instead of 1 so people could swap points.

In the last 4 years we've been to VB, HHI, BWV, and BCV, and the only one I thought was lagging in maintenance was VB the year after the hurricanes hit. BCV seemed a bit dishevelled (cosmetically speaking), but I think there are sooo many kids there that the resort really takes an ongoing beating.

I would only expect more from Disney if I am comparing it to a lesser timeshare. Disney turned the timeshare world around, but they are not the top dog and many people on these boards consider DVC to be nothing more a moderate level timeshare. What sets DVC aside is the Disney atmosphere and/or the adjacent parks. We have looked into a number of other timeshares and Disney is not high priced by any means. I don't think there is any savings out there with true comparibles.

I think this fee is only symptomatic of the problem with people trading-out and CRO not recovering the costs to a break-even level.

I totally agree with you on the outsourcing of jobs. I see that happening everywhere at Disney/DVC. This is my greatest complaint. I used to enjoy sitting on the balcony and watching the Vero Beach staff tending to their gardens and landscape... now it's Joe's Landscaping who employs under paid immigrants. Unfortunately, this is more of a cultural problem than a Disney problem.

The after 4pm thing had it's own mega thread. I think too many people became indignent when they didn't get their room by 4pm and DVC simply said "read our lips... AFTER 4pm". Frankly, I think they should change the checkout time to 10 AM. I'd much rather leave early and have a better chance of getting a room early. This area of entitlement abuse was solved with the simple addition of one word "AFTER". You have to love simple solutions.

I know people do get those hang-up phone calls, but in 9 years we have never gotten one. I think the vast majority of those calls happen more like at 9am or 10am, and maybe it's because we tend to leave by 9 am. This is not a problem that is limited to DVC/Disney and it is not a new trend symptomatic of changes being made.

I don't think DVC "refuses" to upgrade their computers... I think they're just incompetent. This is an area that does indeed need fixing. But this is not new or symptomatic of a new era. DVC has always behind the times. Not providing VCRs, then having VCRs when others provide DVD players, Dial-up Internet access, then just a hotspot or 2 for wireless while other provide in-room wireless. And what the is it with not being able to hold a room for a couple minutes while changinig reservations....? Just idiotic, but again it's nothing new... it's always been that way.

The perception of a shrinking window of availability is just that, a perception. The resorts still have the same number of points sold and all still are open 365. Nothing has changed. Everyone has the same 11/7 windows they always had. Now, if DVC said they were going to sell additional points to all the resorts THAT would cause a true shrinking availability window. In it's peak times, commercial renting did indeed impact highly desired times, but DVC has mostly taken care of commercial renting.

I agree about the staff training. I think sometimes staff are put in the game before the are ready, but at least (not yet) we're not talking to some ESL student accross the world in India.

Just like the cell phone service company, Disney is a public company and exists only because shareholders have invested money in them. As a Disney shareholder, I expect Disney to deliver dividends on a consistent basis. The vast majority of shareholders are not DVC members and only care about profit and dividends. So the pressure is constant to deliver the bottom line.

I think DVC members should definitely hold DVC accountable for poor performance and should communicate their concerns to DVC directly and often. I think many of the disgruntled people on these boards only talk to Disney when it's time to make a reservation.

All in all, I think Disney has done a pretty good job of retaining the magic. We stay at Wyndham resorts also, and they just don't have same magic as DVC resorts.

To the poster who is a new member and has seen all the changes in your 6 months: Some years we have a bunch of changes and some years we have only a few, but every year has changes, and I believe Disney will continue making changes to keep the business healthy...

 

[Mississippian]

Frankly, I'm tired of the "anonymous" phone calls at 7:00 AM and/or the repeated knocks on the door before 11:00 AM.

I've had the phone call problem in the past. Given that I never, ever receive phone calls in my room, on my next trip I plan to unplug the phones on my last day and put out a do not disturb sign. I may even prepare and tape a small note to the door that says "We will be checking out at 11 a.m. Please do not knock."

 

[jbrowna]

There was someone on the DDP board yesterday or the day before bragging about using DDP credits to treat someone who was not on the plan -- which is expressly prohibited, and always has been.

This is one thing I don't really understand. If someone on the dining plan treats someone who isn't on the plan to a meal, a meal credit is still being used, isn't it? I mean, whether I eat two meals, or I eat one and a friend eats another, it's not like any extra food has been used, and two credits have been taken from the plan's allotment. There's no extra expense involved that I can see, so why the big "prohibition?"

Especially with quick serve meals: how can such abuse be prevented anyway? Usually, in my group, only one person goes up to order the meals while the others hunt down a table -- so how would the cashier know whether the three quick serve meals I'm ordering (for example) are only going to be consumed by people actually on the dining plan or not? And what difference would it make?

I'm not advocating this, mind you. I'm just wondering what the issue is.

 

[diznyfanatic]

I agree with much of what you are talking about. And I didn't mean to be pointing at you about the mania, but rather the other thread about this issue that has people livid.

I do believe Disney has in fact dealt with the commercial renting problem effectively. Though I wish they would allow 2 transfers instead of 1 so people could swap points.

In the last 4 years we've been to VB, HHI, BWV, and BCV, and the only one I thought was lagging in maintenance was VB the year after the hurricanes hit. BCV seemed a bit dishevelled (cosmetically speaking), but I think there are sooo many kids there that the resort really takes an ongoing beating.

I would only expect more from Disney if I am comparing it to a lesser timeshare. Disney turned the timeshare world around, but they are not the top dog and many people on these boards consider DVC to be nothing more a moderate level timeshare. What sets DVC aside is the Disney atmosphere and/or the adjacent parks. We have looked into a number of other timeshares and Disney is not high priced by any means. I don't think there is any savings out there with true comparibles.

I think this fee is only symptomatic of the problem with people trading-out and CRO not recovering the costs to a break-even level.

I totally agree with you on the outsourcing of jobs. I see that happening everywhere at Disney/DVC. This is my greatest complaint. I used to enjoy sitting on the balcony and watching the Vero Beach staff tending to their gardens and landscape... now it's Joe's Landscaping who employs under paid immigrants. Unfortunately, this is more of a cultural problem than a Disney problem.

The after 4pm thing had it's own mega thread. I think too many people became indignent when they didn't get their room by 4pm and DVC simply said "read our lips... AFTER 4pm". Frankly, I think they should change the checkout time to 10 AM. I'd much rather leave early and have a better chance of getting a room early. This area of entitlement abuse was solved with the simple addition of one word "AFTER". You have to love simple solutions.

I know people do get those hang-up phone calls, but in 9 years we have never gotten one. I think the vast majority of those calls happen more like at 9am or 10am, and maybe it's because we tend to leave by 9 am. This is not a problem that is limited to DVC/Disney and it is not a new trend symptomatic of changes being made.

I don't think DVC "refuses" to upgrade their computers... I think they're just incompetent. This is an area that does indeed need fixing. But this is not new or symptomatic of a new era. DVC has always behind the times. Not providing VCRs, then having VCRs when others provide DVD players, Dial-up Internet access, then just a hotspot or 2 for wireless while other provide in-room wireless. And what the is it with not being able to hold a room for a couple minutes while changinig reservations....? Just idiotic, but again it's nothing new... it's always been that way.

The perception of a shrinking window of availability is just that, a perception. The resorts still have the same number of points sold and all still are open 365. Nothing has changed. Everyone has the same 11/7 windows they always had. Now, if DVC said they were going to sell additional points to all the resorts THAT would cause a true shrinking availability window. In it's peak times, commercial renting did indeed impact highly desired times, but DVC has mostly taken care of commercial renting.

I agree about the staff training. I think sometimes staff are put in the game before the are ready, but at least (not yet) we're not talking to some ESL student accross the world in India.

Just like the cell phone service company, Disney is a public company and exists only because shareholders have invested money in them. As a Disney shareholder, I expect Disney to deliver dividends on a consistent basis. The vast majority of shareholders are not DVC members and only care about profit and dividends. So the pressure is constant to deliver the bottom line.

I think DVC members should definitely hold DVC accountable for poor performance and should communicate their concerns to DVC directly and often. I think many of the disgruntled people on these boards only talk to Disney when it's time to make a reservation.

All in all, I think Disney has done a pretty good job of retaining the magic. We stay at Wyndham resorts also, and they just don't have same magic as DVC resorts.

To the poster who is a new member and has seen all the changes in your 6 months: Some years we have a bunch of changes and some years we have only a few, but every year has changes, and I believe Disney will continue making changes to keep the business healthy...

Thank you for a thoughtful, insightful and considerate response. You've actually made me feel better.

You've also made some compelling responses that I would like to respond to when I'm not in such a rush, so I'll be back! Thanks again!

 

[OneMoreTry]

Maybe this is off-topic, but if CRO really is a "bust", I wonder if DVC has thought of dealing in one-time point rentals (transfers, really) to members only.

If I'm planning a big family get-together and need 200 extra points for one-time use only, the most logical current alternative is to find someone with 200 extra points and pay $12 each for a transfer. .....

Interesting. Although it seems like that could be a potential headache for CRO or DVC, too.

 

[crisi]

This is one thing I don't really understand. If someone on the dining plan treats someone who isn't on the plan to a meal, a meal credit is still being used, isn't it? I mean, whether I eat two meals, or I eat one and a friend eats another, it's not like any extra food has been used, and two credits have been taken from the plan's allotment. There's no extra expense involved that I can see, so why the big "prohibition?"

Especially with quick serve meals: how can such abuse be prevented anyway? Usually, in my group, only one person goes up to order the meals while the others hunt down a table -- so how would the cashier know whether the three quick serve meals I'm ordering (for example) are only going to be consumed by people actually on the dining plan or not? And what difference would it make?

I'm not advocating this, mind you. I'm just wondering what the issue is.

Some nonuse is anticipated. When a company offers a pre-pay program, or a rebate program or even giftcards, they anticipate that a certain amount will not be redeemed. They then cost the program appropriately (well, not giftcards, trust me, Wal-Mart LOVES the fact that I have a giftcard someone paid for sitting in my china cabinet I may never get around to using because I never go to Wal-Mart).

Honestly, I COULD go to WDW and get the dining plan for myself and my daughter and I could easily share - she'll be an "adult" next year. Disney would be providing ONE meal in exchange for ONE credit. But they don't see it that way. They see that if her and I each buy the dining plan, we probably won't order every course, or eat every meal provided by the plan. To give you the ability to use your credits for anyone - the program would have to be more expensive since fewer credits would go unused.

 

[salmoneous]

The biggest abuse was taking advantage of Disney's ineptitude with structuring the program. For a long time, there was no computer distinction between adult credits and child credits, so people who wanted to cheat the system would use their kids $10.99 credits to buy adult $37.99 meals. It took them two years of abuse to fix that part of the program, and when they did, all the people who had been cheating them wailed!

I know I should just let this go, but……

Many of us believe that the ability to use at least some credits bought at a child's price for adult meals fell not just under the letter of the rules, but also under the spirit of the rules. I believe having the kids eat elsewhere while Mom and Dad use their credits for a Signature Dinner is something Disney anticipated; the rules were specifically crafted to allow it. Those folks who did so were *not* cheating the system, but using it as intended.

Other people disagree about the intent/spirit of the program. It was debated to death back then - no need to relive that debate. But it's a bit irksome to hear behavior that was within the rules of the program, that was actively encouraged by Disney employees administering the program and that may or may not have been within the spirit of the program called "cheating".

 

[Dean]

I'm not sure what "overuse" means, but there was certainly a ton of abuse of DDP...and it's still going on. There was someone on the DDP board yesterday or the day before bragging about using DDP credits to treat someone who was not on the plan -- which is expressly prohibited, and always has been. The person who got away with the cheat couldn't wait to get back home and go on the DDP board and tell others how to do it.

Jim, I think we've discussed this before. That may or may not have been Disney's intent all along but I definitely did not read "non transferable" as prohibiting buying someone else's meal. I do know they changed the wording on the brochure to include this exclusion somewhere around Dec, 2007.

 

[DisDaydreamer]

I know I should just let this go, but……

Many of us believe that the ability to use at least some credits bought at a child's price for adult meals fell not just under the letter of the rules, but also under the spirit of the rules. I believe having the kids eat elsewhere while Mom and Dad use their credits for a Signature Dinner is something Disney anticipated; the rules were specifically crafted to allow it. Those folks who did so were *not* cheating the system, but using it as intended.

Other people disagree about the intent/spirit of the program. It was debated to death back then - no need to relive that debate. But it's a bit irksome to hear behavior that was within the rules of the program, that was actively encouraged by Disney employees administering the program and that may or may not have been within the spirit of the program called "cheating".

Agreed... Disney knows what they are doing. And don't overlook anything... everything is calculated and very well planned...

 

[Sammie]

Sammie,
I don't use DDP (use DDE), but was wondering what you meant by this ? I feel disney is really pushing this program so not sure how we're being penalized for abuse or overuse of the system ? Maybe I'm just not understanding your point ? Disney has been even pushing free dining more over the last 2-3 years than I ever recall.

The abuse was on many levels. First it started with the abuse of the child's credits, which resulted in the realignment of that. Believe me those type of changes cost money.

Second, over use would be simply it was more popular than the infrastructue could handle. Too many people buying and crowding of restuarants etc.

The tips situation was two fold, one was a contract labor agreement and there are always two sides and I am not favoring one over the other. Anyone in large business understands it is a necessary evil you deal with.

Also some guests in feedback survey felt they would prefer to be in control of their own tipping and that would result in better service. Personally for us we had never had bad service on the plan but obviousally some did and did not like the manitory tip.

As to free dining, Disney uses that to fill months that are not attractive in themselves. Low times.

With the previous plan you saved large amounts of money and there was alot of food and probably enough to encourage sharing. With the removal of the appetizer, this will eliminate a good bit of sharing of meals and get the plan back to what Disney wants it to be. Each person using their credits only for themselves.

 

[SuzanneSLO]

I would think that the "nontransferable" dining credits are viewed by Disney pretty much the same as the "nontransferable" park tickets. They are intended for one person's use and Disney fully expects that some days/credits will never be used and calculates that into the pricing.

JMHO -- Suzanne

 

[Sammie]

I would think that the "nontransferable" dining credits are viewed by Disney pretty much the same as the "nontransferable" park tickets. They are intended for one person's use and Disney fully expects that some days/credits will never be used and calculates that into the pricing.

JMHO -- Suzanne

Exactly.

I don't wish to revist the child credit debate and truly it makes no difference how anyone sees it, Disney saw it as not falling with the guidelines they wanted, therefore they changed it.

As to CM promoted it, that was simply CMs on a non upper management level and there was a great deal of confusion about it. Upper management on the VP level had a vision for the program from the beginning and it has been tweaked to the point now that it is going to be very close to what they want.

Believe me they do as stated go to a great deal to plan these things but until they release it, they can only guess at the actual human use of it. After a program has been released to the public only then, can they come back say, well gee did not really think that would happen, or more importantly in the case of the DDP, did not realize it would happen to that large of an extent.

 

[JimMIA]

But it's a bit irksome to hear behavior that was within the rules of the program, that was actively encouraged by Disney employees administering the program and that may or may not have been within the spirit of the program called "cheating".

It may well be irksome...BUT...

when behavior that was always prohibited (although admitedly abetted by many Disney CMs back in 2005)

was specifically designated again as being not acceptable in 2006

prohibited again for 2007, with Disney implementing special safeguards to protect themselves from this type of cheating (and CMs threatened with termination if they did it)

-- and then eight months into 2007 a DVC owner goes on a DISboard bragging about getting away with it...

I'm sorry...If they're irked, they're irked.
If you know them, tell them to get over it.
I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

The only good thing about this situation is that they were not cheating from a DVC resort under our perks.

 

[JimC]

It has only been 6 mos. since I became a DVC member, and here are all the changes already: Increased mousekeeping fees, increased non-DVC fee, change in Valet, possible 2042 extensions which I feel will be somewhat mandatory, banking changes, waitlist changes, II search changes, ticket price increases, DDP changes, possible AP changes. Have I left anything out? No wonder prospective buyers are having second thoughts......

Buyer's and even current members, need to understand what they purchased. And how that differs from renting a hotel room. DVC is consistently delivering on what we purchased, in my view.

Now I agree that many of these changes are not to my liking. But increases in charges for tickets and extra housekeeping, while not welcomed are expected as costs increase. I have been surprised that housekeeping charges have not increased on a more regular basis.

DDP changes should be no surprise if you watched how people use the plan. Just casual observation made it clear that the design and operation of the DDP were not in synch.

In some respects I trust that DVC is making decisions based on experience on a much broader scale than any of us have. Hopefully they continue to focus on the overlap of guest satisfaction and profitable operations.