Is telling a lie a crime?

[eliza61]

The supreme court is hearing a case to repeal the Stolen Valor Act and I have to admit some of the arguments the challenger makes are pretty interesting.

Anyhoo, the cliff notes version of this case is.

Guy lies about being a navy seal, gets caught and fined. He appeals the law saying basically while lying may be immoral it's not illegal.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/supr...olen-valor-act/story?id=15768272#.T0VmZId5HTo

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/stolen-valor-supreme-court-debate-fake-war-heroes/story?id=15769746

I believe the lower courts have ruled in his favor, basically you have the right to tell a lie (free speech).

A lower court ruled in favor of Alvarez, saying that while society would be "better off if Alvarez would stop spreading worthless, ridiculous and offensive untruths," the law was "unconstitutionally applied to make a criminal out of a man who was proven to be nothing more than a liar."




Now the navy seals say that this is more than lying and that some of these guys made the ultimate sacrifice but one of the Justices is concerned about a "slippery slope"

You lie about having a college degree, could you be prosecuted.
lie about having an affair? I think you can lie about being a doctor as long as you don't actually try to practice.


Now I guess I do think some lies are worse than others...
Hey girlfriend, of course that dress doesnt make you look fat..... white lie
Yep, I'm single (married with 2 kids).....Whopper

So should some one's speech be protected if it's a lie?

P.S. I am not an attorney, don't know the ins and outs on the protection of free speech.

 

[luvmy3]

In this case, no I don't think what he did was a crime.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Speech snould not be criminal . . . actions, directly resulting from the lies should be.

 

[PeterPan09]

I guess it depends on what one lies about.

 

[Uncle Remus]

I think if you're tryin' be elected to some office or gain some benefit from claimin' to be a veteran or a college grad or some previous experience that ya in fact don't have, well, yeah, that oughta be against the law.

I do know wearin' military ribbons/medals ya didn't earn is against some military reg, we used to get those nitwits that graduated from AIT or Basic all the time wearin' a whole chestful of 'em like the MPs wouldn't know some 18 year old in 1975 didn't really serve in Nam.

 

[sam_gordon]

I think if you're tryin' be elected to some office or gain some benefit from claimin' to be a veteran or a college grad or some previous experience that ya in fact don't have, well, yeah, that oughta be against the law.

I think if you're attempting to get some financial benefit (Veterans benefits if you didn't serve), that would constitute fraud, which would be illegal.

But, if you're in a Nightclub and you tell some "hot young thing" you were a Navy Seal, that shouldn't be illegal.

So I guess it depends on the goal/result of the lie.

 

[Wallylicious]

Yep, lying is a fact of life. If you stand to gain something monetary, or material (including a position that provides you with more power, etc.) then lying is much more serious than the conversational lies that every single person engages in.

"Yes dear. It's delicious." "Ooooooh! What a pretty baby." And so on...

Malice and forethought come to mind...

 

[Coconut36]

Speech snould not be criminal . . . actions, directly resulting from the lies should be.

I agree. It's more about what you do/how you act in relation to that lie that could be criminal.

I do feel what he did bordered on criminal. This is beyond lying about an affair or how someone looks. He was an elected public official who made up a story that could garner votes/interest/sympathy and it could be argued that he did benefit from it (via his public office or garnering votes for that office). Would people have voted for him or reacted to him the same way without that information? Maybe or maybe not. At the very least IMO he committed fraud by representing himself as something that he was not.

I think it is that he did this publicly as part of his "office" that makes it an issue.

 

[duffy]

I think if you're trying to be elected to some office or gain some benefit from claiming to be a veteran or a college graduate or some previous experience that you in fact don't have, well, yes, that ought to be against the law.

I do know wearing military ribbons/medals you didn't earn is against some military regulation, we used to get those nitwits that graduated from AIT or Basic all the time wearing a whole chestful of them, like the MPs wouldn't know some 18 year old in 1975 didn't really serve in Nam.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

The supreme court is hearing a case to repeal the Stolen Valor Act and I have to admit some of the arguments the challenger makes are pretty interesting.

Anyhoo, the cliff notes version of this case is.

Guy lies about being a navy seal, gets caught and fined. He appeals the law saying basically while lying may be immoral it's not illegal.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/supr...olen-valor-act/story?id=15768272#.T0VmZId5HTo

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/stolen-valor-supreme-court-debate-fake-war-heroes/story?id=15769746

I believe the lower courts have ruled in his favor, basically you have the right to tell a lie (free speech).

A lower court ruled in favor of Alvarez, saying that while society would be "better off if Alvarez would stop spreading worthless, ridiculous and offensive untruths," the law was "unconstitutionally applied to make a criminal out of a man who was proven to be nothing more than a liar."

Now the navy seals say that this is more than lying and that some of these guys made the ultimate sacrifice but one of the Justices is concerned about a "slippery slope"

You lie about having a college degree, could you be prosecuted.
lie about having an affair? I think you can lie about being a doctor as long as you don't actually try to practice.


Now I guess I do think some lies are worse than others...
Hey girlfriend, of course that dress doesnt make you look fat..... white lie
Yep, I'm single (married with 2 kids).....Whopper

So should some one's speech be protected if it's a lie?

P.S. I am not an attorney, don't know the ins and outs on the protection of free speech.

Telling a lie is not in and of itself a crime.
Lying to investigators investigating a crime may be a crime depending upon several factors.
Lying in court may be a crime depending upon several factors.
Lying in a business transaction to obtain a benefit one is not entitled to may also be a crime or a tort, or both.
Lying to obtain a benefit from the government one is not entitled to is a crime.
But telling a lie is not in and of itself a crime and shouldn't be.

 

[sam_gordon]

While what he did may have bordered on criminal, I don't know that it crossed the line.

For example, let's say I apply for a job selling Widgets. During the interview and on my resume, I say I've sold more widgets than anyone last year. So I get the job. Actually, I've never seen a widget, much less sold one. Should I be fired? Sure. Should I be charged with a crime? I don't think so. It's up to the hiring personnel (in the case at hand, that would be the voters) to do their "due diligence" before making an offer.

 

[M5ward]

I think he committed a crime. He broke a law that was in effect since 2006. I think if a law is on the books it should be enforced. It was that oh-so-wacky, ultra liberal 9th Circuit Court of California that overturned his conviction. His lie stems from claiming to be a Medal of Honor winner during an election campaign ( which he won.). So he benefitted by the lie and committed fraud.
As a member of the Pomona Water Board he was convicted of illegally registering his ex-wife for health benefits (misappropriation of public funds).

 

[cornflake]

There's no coda and no condition in the Amendment. It does not say '...speech except if...'

I think this is a ridonkulous case.

I think he committed a crime. He broke a law that was in effect since 2006. I think if a law is on the books it should be enforced. It was that oh-so-wacky, ultra liberal 9th Circuit Court of California that overturned his conviction. His lie stems from claiming to be a Medal of Honor winner during an election campaign ( which he won.). So he benefitted by the lie and committed fraud.
As a member of the Pomona Water Board he was convicted of illegally registering his ex-wife for health benefits (misappropriation of public funds)

The job of the court system you reference is to determine if the laws on the books pass Constitutional muster.

A law doesn't get to stay a law and be enforced if it violates the Constitution. The Appleals courts and Supreme Court's job is to decide if it does. That's what they're doing here.

Recently, the law has been found to be unconstitutional, hence the conviction under it was, yes, overturned.

Misappropriation of public funds has nothing to do with this. That's an entirely separate issue. If this guy had gotten benefits he wasn't entitled to, someone can prosecute him for fraudulently obtaining those. Prosecuting someone for lying about their personal history however... imo, again, ridiculous.

 

[eliza61]

I think he committed a crime. He broke a law that was in effect since 2006. I think if a law is on the books it should be enforced. It was that oh-so-wacky, ultra liberal 9th Circuit Court of California that overturned his conviction. His lie stems from claiming to be a Medal of Honor winner during an election campaign ( which he won.). So he benefitted by the lie and committed fraud.
As a member of the Pomona Water Board he was convicted of illegally registering his ex-wife for health benefits (misappropriation of public funds).

So the laws on the books prohibiting blacks and whites from marrying (miscegenation Laws) should be enforced? Sorry, that is why we appeal and have superior courts (ultra liberal, ultra conservative or ultra any thing else). Histroy has proven that some laws are unconstitutional and they should be struck down. I know I'm stretching a bit but you get my drift.

All that proves is that this guy is a class a jerk, which in this country everyone has a right to be.

 

[Acklander]

I don't consider lying in itself to be illegal, unless you've sworn otherwise (I.e. Under oath, or when under contract). As far as what the politician did - not illegal, however I consider it unethical. If it was a requirement for the job that would be one thing - but it's not. Usually you can expect the opponent and/or the press to out people on these things before hand, so not sure why this didn't happen in this case. I would expect that "the people" would have cause for recall if they wanted.
Could you imagine if we allowed for jail sentences for politicians who were caught lying??? There wouldn't be any room left for violent criminals.

 

[sam_gordon]

I would expect that "the people" would have cause for recall if they wanted.

I don't think they have cause for a recall.

Could you imagine if we allowed for jail sentences for politicians who were caught lying??? There wouldn't be any room left for violent criminals.

What if we fine them $10,000 for every lie? Our national debt & money problems would be taken care of!

 

[M5ward]

There's no coda and no condition in the Amendment. It does not say '...speech except if...'

I think this is a ridonkulous case.


The job of the court system you reference is to determine if the laws on the books pass Constitutional muster.

A law doesn't get to stay a law and be enforced if it violates the Constitution. The Appleals courts and Supreme Court's job is to decide if it does. That's what they're doing here.

Recently, the law has been found to be unconstitutional, hence the conviction under it was, yes, overturned.

Misappropriation of public funds has nothing to do with this. That's an entirely separate issue. If this guy had gotten benefits he wasn't entitled to, someone can prosecute him for fraudulently obtaining those. Prosecuting someone for lying about their personal history however... imo, again, ridiculous.

Your opinion...not mine. And you're entitled to have that opinion just as I am entitled to have mine.

 

[cornflake]

Your opinion...not mine. And you're entitled to have that opinion just as I am entitled to have mine.

That this law is ridiculous is certainly my opinion, yes.

That the job of these courts is to review laws on the books and strike down ones that violate Constitutional protections is not in any way opinion, no.

That a law was passed doesn't mean it should or will stay on the books or be enforced. That's why it's a three-pronged system, because the legislature needs to be checked and balanced, as does each of the other two branches of government.

The legislature can pass anything it wishes. The court can then say, 'no, that law will not stand and will not be enforced.' That's how it works. That's what the Supreme Court and the courts underneath them are for.

 

[sbell111]

His lie stems from claiming to be a Medal of Honor winner during an election campaign ( which he won.). So he benefitted by the lie and committed fraud.

A politician lied to get elected? Color me shocked.

 

[Coconut36]

A politician lied to get elected? Color me shocked.

I think the issue is this is very different from the common election lies regarding what they will accomplish.