Is it that bad?

[MagicalMomma6]

I'm sure it's all about personal perspective, but we have always traveled to WDW during historically low crowd times for the last 12 years and I will say that the "slow times" really aren't that slow anymore - not like they were. And as for Fastpass+, I don't personally care for it in it's present state. I like the My Disney Experience and My Magic, but not the Fastpass+ part. If they would get rid of the tiering system and give at least 5 pre-booked Fastpasses, I think it would SO much better and usable. Wishful thinking at this point though. As for rudeness, I don't think that changed drastically over the years - there are ALWAYS going to be rude, oblivious people - I just tend to ignore them

 

[BugsDaddy]

I don't know whether people make a decision on Disney based on whether they consider it to be a good value. Many go because it's what they've always done and others because they see it as a right of passage. In these cases value has nothing to do with it.

It depends on how you define value. Everyone values different things. Some people value the nostalgia of Disney and wanting their kids to experience what they experienced. A value is really anything you feel you obtain enough worth out of to justify the cost. At the point where the cost of something increases to negate the value, most people will stop going. That hasn't happened at Disney yet.

 

[BugsDaddy]

Some people are just experiencing the new normal for the first time. Just because they decided to try it out, isn't necessarily a vote of approval.

With me, I tried it, and it didn't horribly affect my vacation. I think MM+ was not money well spent and I worry about the direction being taken with the parks, but we still had a good time. That said, FP+ still feels like a step backward to me, and it was inconvenient in some ways. I'm wary about the future, but we still found enough good in the trip to want to go back. I don't think that's a resounding vote of confidence.

So just because people spring for a trip in the here and now, doesn't mean they're over the moon about the changes. My view is that we managed to have a good time despite the changes.

Now, Disney may only care that I'm continuing to patronize their parks. I'll give you that. I still don't think that necessarily translates to all happy campers.

I would agree that not all Disney visitors are happy campers but anyone that returns to Disney (and to post the kind of numbers they are posting, would require a lot of repeat visitors) finds some sort of value in their experience that keeps them coming back for more. Despite increased costs, or the fact that some do not like FP+ or that some think that there is an abundance of rude guests and cast members, people continue to spend their sometimes limited vacation dollars at Disney or at least a portion because they don't really consider these things deal breakers. They may post on message boards all day long and go on and on about how Disney sucks but at the end of the day, their is some sort of experience that they are looking for that Disney still provides and that they are still willing to pay for. That is why revenue and attendance are relevant in this discussion.

 

[3DisneyFanz]

It depends on how you define value. Everyone values different things. Some people value the nostalgia of Disney and wanting their kids to experience what they experienced. A value is really anything you feel you obtain enough worth out of to justify the cost. At the point where the cost of something increases to negate the value, most people will stop going. That hasn't happened at Disney yet.

I'm not sure if we know that yet or not. While some people will decide on whether or not to come based on cost many others won't decide that value until after they've come and gone. If love to know what the current return rate is on first time visitors as that is really the key indicator as to whether any of their recent changes and investments are having the impact they want.

 

[JoshuaShaw]

(and to post the kind of numbers they are posting, would require a lot of repeat visitors)

Or a lot of new visitors.

 

[itchin2go]

I would agree that not all Disney visitors are happy campers but anyone that returns to Disney (and to post the kind of numbers they are posting, would require a lot of repeat visitors) finds some sort of value in their experience that keeps them coming back for more. Despite increased costs, or the fact that some do not like FP+ or that some think that there is an abundance of rude guests and cast members, people continue to spend their sometimes limited vacation dollars at Disney or at least a portion because they don't really consider these things deal breakers. They may post on message boards all day long and go on and on about how Disney sucks but at the end of the day, their is some sort of experience that they are looking for that Disney still provides and that they are still willing to pay for. That is why revenue and attendance are relevant in this discussion.

What happened to the post about the leak?

OP asked whether I still love my park experience ... true or false.

You responded that Disney's revenues were up. I thought your point was that people must still love their park experience, or else revenues wouldn't be up.

My point was that there are people who are still ponying up the money, but maybe (a) they haven't experienced the new normal, so they don't know whether they love or hate it, and (b) there are some who have experienced it, but they neither love nor hate it.

You may think all the OP needs to know is that revenues are up. I disagree. Maybe that's all Disney needs to know, but someone planning to visit in the new normal may want to know more than that. And I think it's relevant to say, well, we saw some decrease in value, but we still had fun. That's a tale that revenue may not tell.

 

[BugsDaddy]

What happened to the post about the leak?

OP asked whether I still love my park experience ... true or false.

You responded that Disney's revenues were up. I thought your point was that people must still love their park experience, or else revenues wouldn't be up.

My point was that there are people who are still ponying up the money, but maybe (a) they haven't experienced the new normal, so they don't know whether they love or hate it, and (b) there are some who have experienced it, but they neither love nor hate it.

You may think all the OP needs to know is that revenues are up. I disagree. Maybe that's all Disney needs to know, but someone planning to visit in the new normal may want to know more than that. And I think it's relevant to say, well, we saw some decrease in value, but we still had fun. That's a tale that revenue may not tell.

While increased park revenue due to increased attendance and customer spending (absorption and acceptance of price increases) may not tell the entire story, I think it is a very strong indicator that these issues are not having the impact on the park experience that some people are touting. Three pages ago, a couple of people were demanding sources and fact-based data for people's opinions on the subject but when presented with data that can be used as an indicator for satisfaction, those same people want to impune the data and claim that the increase must be primarily due to first time guests (without of course countering with any data or sources to support that argument).

 

[BugsDaddy]

By the way, that is not to say that these issues are not affecting some people's park experiences. I would absolutely say that it is true for a certain segment of guests but, in my opinion, not a significant enough segment to cause Disney to reverse course. No matter what course you take, you will never make everyone happy and you will affect someone's park experiences in a negative way. Some people hated FP- and some hated everything before FP altogether.

 

[socrateze]

What was your experience with FP+? I was not sure how I would feel about intil I went myself, and while I understand how some people may have negative experiences, and therfore choose to stay away, mine was positive. WIll you share how FP+ made your trip so bad you are not going again?

Have been twice with FP+. I didn't like deciding 60 days out what parks to visit and then making FP+ selections. I don't want to make ride reservations and feel locked in to a park.

We were traveling with people who had never been and I really wanted them to have the ability to experience the parks as they wanted to, but we really couldn't do that without losing FP+ reservations or sacrificing ADR's.

At MK, the problem we experienced was the SB lines for secondary FP+ attractions were long (greater than 30 minutes). It felt like we spent all of our time wandering aimlessly around the parks waiting for our FP windows to open.

Over the past 2 years we have paid more for our WDW and received a lot less. It no longer feels like a place for us to enjoy.

 

[itchin2go]

While increased park revenue due to increased attendance and customer spending (absorption and acceptance of price increases) may not tell the entire story, I think it is a very strong indicator that these issues are not having the impact on the park experience that some people are touting. Three pages ago, a couple of people were demanding sources and fact-based data for people's opinions on the subject but when presented with data that can be used as an indicator for satisfaction, those same people want to impune the data and claim that the increase must be primarily due to first time guests (without of course countering with any data or sources to support that argument).

I agree that revenue is an indicator, but it is not the only indicator, and it doesn't indicate lots of nuanced opinions - and those are as important. Just because they haven't eroded value enough now, doesn't mean they're not inching towards it. A smart company would want to know this.

Three pages ago, someone said (roughly) that more people liked FP+ than disliked it. No one knows this. There's no way to know this. Statements like that just rub me the wrong way. Likewise, if I stated that more people dislike FP+ than like it. No basis. So I want to point out - no real basis, just surmising. Nothing more or less.

I won't say that the revenues going up are solely because of first time visitors, and I'm not sure anyone else did. But wouldn't you agree that there are some first time visitors in there? The point is that you can't count every dollar spent at WDW as a vote for the status quo. Some people "vote" before experiencing it.

By the way, that is not to say that these issues are not affecting some people's park experiences. I would absolutely say that it is true for a certain segment of guests but, in my opinion, not a significant enough segment to cause Disney to reverse course. No matter what course you take, you will never make everyone happy and you will affect someone's park experiences in a negative way. Some people hated FP- and some hated everything before FP altogether.

I agree with the last statement in the above quote, but I don't think a ton of people were visiting that hated everything about the parks. As to your statement that not enough people are upset to change Disney's course, as you said, this is your opinion. Solely, my opinion, but I think plenty of people are put out by the changes. Will Disney change course? At this point, I kind of don't think so. But they would do well to listen.

 

[JoshuaShaw]

While increased park revenue due to increased attendance and customer spending (absorption and acceptance of price increases) may not tell the entire story, I think it is a very strong indicator that these issues are not having the impact on the park experience that some people are touting. Three pages ago, a couple of people were demanding sources and fact-based data for people's opinions on the subject but when presented with data that can be used as an indicator for satisfaction, those same people want to impune the data and claim that the increase must be primarily due to first time guests (without of course countering with any data or sources to support that argument).

The point wasn't to say that it was first time guests, but that it could be first time guests. The fact is, as I already said pages ago, no one has this data and cannot make factual declarations. It's all unfounded speculation. No one is trying to impugn data, they (we) are pointing out that the data isn't conclusive, but specious.

 

[BugsDaddy]

[QUOTE="JoshuaShaw, post: 54254000, member

The point wasn't to say that it was first time guests, but that it could be first time guests. The fact is, as I already said pages ago, no one has this data and cannot make factual declarations. It's all unfounded speculation. No one is trying to impugn data, they (we) are pointing out that the data isn't conclusive, but specious.[/QUOTE]

Yes, part of the attendance at Disneyworld has been first time guests. I have to admit it. Whew..you really got me there, good job. The part I am speaking about are REPEAT guests which you shouldn't need an illustration to admit that those guests are also part of the equation. You are right. Let me know when you come up with another enlightening analogy about leaks and plumbers.

Data doesn't have to be conclusive in order to help to establish a trend of behavior.

 

[Angel Ariel]

None of us are ever going to know the actual numbers and facts from Disney. no amount of discussions on the dis is going to change that.

 

[BugsDaddy]

I agree that revenue is an indicator, but it is not the only indicator, and it doesn't indicate lots of nuanced opinions - and those are as important. Just because they haven't eroded value enough now, doesn't mean they're not inching towards it. A smart company would want to know this.

Three pages ago, someone said (roughly) that more people liked FP+ than disliked it. No one knows this. There's no way to know this. Statements like that just rub me the wrong way. Likewise, if I stated that more people dislike FP+ than like it. No basis. So I want to point out - no real basis, just surmising. Nothing more or less.

I won't say that the revenues going up are solely because of first time visitors, and I'm not sure anyone else did. But wouldn't you agree that there are some first time visitors in there? The point is that you can't count every dollar spent at WDW as a vote for the status quo. Some people "vote" before experiencing it.



I agree with the last statement in the above quote, but I don't think a ton of people were visiting that hated everything about the parks. As to your statement that not enough people are upset to change Disney's course, as you said, this is your opinion. Solely, my opinion, but I think plenty of people are put out by the changes. Will Disney change course? At this point, I kind of don't think so. But they would do well to listen.

Sure, there are first time visitors. To what percentage, no one knows. I would think that a place like Disneyworld relies heavily on repeat business and if their numbers were flat, I would think you could make the argument that their repeat business was falling off. You are going back yourself in 2016 according to your ticker. Why Disney instead of some other vacation destination? You don't strike me as a stupid person so you must find some value in your trips, despite your other issues with the path that Disney Parks has taken. If I stay at a hotel and I hate their beds and the shower was dirty, I don't stay at that hotel any more. Very simple. It doesn't matter to me if their beds were the best in the world 10 years ago. Unless there is some sort of change there, I will not be back.

 

[Nancyg56]

Have been twice with FP+. I didn't like deciding 60 days out what parks to visit and then making FP+ selections. I don't want to make ride reservations and feel locked in to a park.

We were traveling with people who had never been and I really wanted them to have the ability to experience the parks as they wanted to, but we really couldn't do that without losing FP+ reservations or sacrificing ADR's.

At MK, the problem we experienced was the SB lines for secondary FP+ attractions were long (greater than 30 minutes). It felt like we spent all of our time wandering aimlessly around the parks waiting for our FP windows to open.

Over the past 2 years we have paid more for our WDW and received a lot less. It no longer feels like a place for us to enjoy.

Well that's not good. You are the family who makes my case that folks who knew how to use FP- to their advantage were not going to be happy with FP+. WE are the family who used FP- and liked it, found benefits, but ho can use this one as well, and is fine with the preplanning. I don't think Disney will be able to develop a system that everyone likes and that places everyone on an even playing field, because in my opinion, there is no even field. While it is easy to say that with FP- every begins fresh every day, the truth is that only the RD people have that advantage, and not everyone is set up for that. My sister and her DH worked nights, 7P to 7A. They were a disaster on their trip and it was September!

Hopefully, as the system evolves you, and people who fall into that category who do not care to preplan so far in advance will have an option that works. I think it can be done, but people smarter than me need to do it! LOL!

 

[Aliceacc]

It's summer.

Orlando is hot and muggy. School's still out in much of the country, so WDW is crowded.

People will complain. Not because things are any worse than in March, but because they're hot and tired and fighting crowds and trying to see it all and do it all.

I imagine the complaints will decrease sharply in October.

 

[3DisneyFanz]

Well that's not good. You are the family who makes my case that folks who knew how to use FP- to their advantage were not going to be happy with FP+. WE are the family who used FP- and liked it, found benefits, but ho can use this one as well, and is fine with the preplanning. I don't think Disney will be able to develop a system that everyone likes and that places everyone on an even playing field, because in my opinion, there is no even field. While it is easy to say that with FP- every begins fresh every day, the truth is that only the RD people have that advantage, and not everyone is set up for that. My sister and her DH worked nights, 7P to 7A. They were a disaster on their trip and it was September!

Hopefully, as the system evolves you, and people who fall into that category who do not care to preplan so far in advance will have an option that works. I think it can be done, but people smarter than me need to do it! LOL!

They could easily make the system a day of or 24 hours out versus 30 or 60 which would alleviate a lot of the issues most people have with it.

 

[mickeyfanachey1999]

I haven't been since April 2014. Not that long ago but it seems the negative threads about FP+ and crowds and rudeness have been getting worse. I don't know if I am just noticing them more. Is negativity contagious? Has it all really gotten that bad?

I'm not letting it get to me and am holding judgement until I go but it makes me curious which side is the majority. The side that is getting disappointed or the side that doesn't see anything wrong.

Thought I'd make a poll and see the results.

We were there in May and had a blast. Can't wait to go back in 20 days!

 

[skuttle]

We went to WDW during Easter week this year and had one of our best trips so far! We had to do a lot of planning to make the huge crowds manageable, but we did it and had a great trip. FP+ wasn't as bad as we were thinking it would be, but again, it took a lot of planning. We also go about every 18 months, so we don't mind skipping something here or there if the lines are too long, and we don't try to cram everything in. That probably makes a bid difference as well. I still think the dining plan ruined disney dining, but that's not going to change any time soon, so I try not to dwell on it!

 

[Angel Ariel]

They could easily make the system a day of or 24 hours out versus 30 or 60 which would alleviate a lot of the issues most people have with it.

I agree. If they did a system where it was still bookable online, but the booking didn't open until day of or 24 hrs in advance, I think it would address issues on both sides. People who didn't want to, or can't, make RD still wouldn't have to - they'd just have to be awake when the window opened, and there would be more day of flexibility for those who don't like all the preplanning.

Sadly I think this is all pipe dreaming, as that kind of compromise doesn't accomplish what Disney's stated goal with the prebooking was - and that's to lock people in to their days at Disney well before their arrival, so they don't get enticed to spend time elsewhere in Orlando.