Is it possible for someone to tell me (WITHOUT DEBATE!)...

[hokiefan33]

So hookiefan Just to clarify....If your wife was diagnosed with an eptopic pregnancy, you are her would refuse treatment???

Your wife would die when the tube bursts in EXTREME pain. There would never be a chance of the baby surviving any way.
What if your wife decided to have treatment to save her life What if the love for her children was enough for her to choose life for herslf, would you stand in her way

To completely clarify, in case it was unclear, it's not treatment we would refuse, it's terminating a pregnancy that we would refuse to do. You say "there's no chance of the baby surviving, anyway." Why do you say that? Maybe based on what the doctors can do there's not, but based upon what God can do, anything is possible. Or don't you agree with that?

 

[hokiefan33]

BTW Iam offended and angry that you consider me a "murderer". But I also feel a bit sorry for you.... :

I don't consider you anything. I have yet to reference you at all in any post I've ever made. In fact, in my post earlier, I specifically pointed out that the "we" I was referring to was myself and my wife. If you choose to characterize yourself as such, that is your choice. But I did not, and I said that is our choice, and not representative of anyone else's. Do you feel guilty about things you've done? B/c I didn't say anything at all about what you might have or might not have done.

 

[tallym]

For crying out loud???? What do think the "treatment" of an eptopic pregnancy is??

IT is to REMOVE it!! That is the ONLY way to survive...So would you do it or not?

 

[JennyMominRI]

To completely clarify, in case it was unclear, it's not treatment we would refuse, it's terminating a pregnancy that we would refuse to do. You say "there's no chance of the baby surviving, anyway." Why do you say that? Maybe based on what the doctors can do there's not, but based upon what God can do, anything is possible. Or don't you agree with that?

I don't believe G-d interferes ,no..I believe he set the laws of nature in motion and from there things take their course. I dont believe he gave me AIDS anymore than he will cure it . As such humans get sick...They get diseases,They miscarry,they develop embryos in the wrong tube....Such is being human.. G-d gave us our brains to come up with medical treatments.. We can save the life of a women with an ectopic pregnancy.. As G-d values human life above all, we should save it.

 

[hokiefan33]

Wow
I honestly applaud your faith! Thats sincere! I pride myself on my faith as well but could you not also say that a living being (the baby) was murdering another human being (me, its mother.) In a way KEEPING a LIFE was DESTROYING TWO LIFES. To us, the parents of other children it was a choice that our children needed thier mother alive and in their life. We would make the same decision again. I guess we won't know the real answer until we get to Heaven. Oh and I am going to Heaven, of that I have not one single doubt.

If our decison was wrong, then God will let me know that. During this time we prayed and prayed and not once did I believe God wanted me to die. I have since prayed to God for forgiveness IF the choice we made was the wrong one. I am not convinced that it was. As I said NO HUMAN will be able to tell me it was wrong. God will. If it was I have no doubt that I have been forgiven and in God's awesome love for me it was forgotten. We are, after all human and full of fault, you, me, everyone. We do slip, we do stumble and we make right and wrong choices.

Our saving grace is his love for us and his opinion that saying a curse word is the same as murder, a sin is a sin no matter the ""MIGHT of the sin that the world sees."" We are still forgiven.

So I wish you Peace and I do pray that NO ONE ever had to go through this horrific circumstance. Right or Wrong I am thankful to My Saviour everyday that I am here with my husband, family and children and that I am able to be a mother and a wife. I'm thankful that God has given me the ability to show him to my children and to see two loving parents who worship him.

I agree with you whole-heartedly. Remember, I said the decision we would make is ours, not necessarily anyone else's. People are free to make their own decisions.

 

[hokiefan33]

Oh and I want to clarify that I do NOT believe I murdered the baby, the baby had no chance of life. It was not growing, it was barely functioning. The baby would NOT have lived.

Yes a devine miracle could have happened but if it had, I tend to think we would be on Oprah and every news page from here to the entire world. The baby simply could not survive. There had NEVER been a baby or mother survive with the problems with this pregnancy. NEVER!

I find it appaling to think that I would be considered a "murderer" in the same since that I would go out on the street and kill someone in cold blood. I did not murder anyone. I chose to save one life when the death of TWO was inevitable.

Again, I made sure to apply everything I said to me. When I said "we", I specifically made sure to mention that I meant myself and my wife, and noone else. I'm not accusing you of anything at all.

 

[tallym]

EXUSE ME.....your not bright are you? You said you consider abortion MURDER.

Right?

SO therefore you consider anyone carrying out this act a murderer??

So yes You called me a murderer! And thats VERY VERY strong language to be throwing around.

 

[hokiefan33]

Oh and even if I did murder someone on the street in COLD BLOOD God would still forgive me if I was honestly sorry and I honestly did repent. Thats His Grace, His Understanding and His LOVE for us. Pretty amazing when you think about it, huh.

I agree completely.

 

[WIcruizer]

You say "there's no chance of the baby surviving, anyway." Why do you say that? Maybe based on what the doctors can do there's not, but based upon what God can do, anything is possible. Or don't you agree with that?

<Inserting myself into the debate> No, I don't agree with that. I don't believe in a God that micomanages our lives. Why should I work? I could just pray for $1MM and God will provide. What you're talking about is similar in nature. Risk your wife's life for the less than 1% chance the baby will survive? That's just not rational to me.

 

[hokiefan33]

Arielle..Please don't get upset.You (and I did) what we had to dur beliefs are different from HokieFans..FTR I don't think Hokie views me as a *murderer*
To the poster who said that continuing a pregnancy that could kill you is considered suicide,That's how Jewish law views it..Then again,Judaism doesn't view a fetus in the same way as most Christians.

Correct. See, everyone, it IS possible to disagree without being offended.

 

[JimB.]

Just an FYI, if my DW & I had not had her ectopic pregnancy treated by a Doctor (who was given a brain & intelligence by God), she would be dead. Without a doubt.

And I would not have my DW OR my 2 kids that I now have.

How is it in God's "plan" to not treat that?

I don't believe in a God that micomanages our lives.

ITA!!

I believe God gives us intelligence, thought, conscience, ambition, etc, etc., & it's up to the individual to make the most of it.

Ahhhhh, consider this thread officially hijacked......................


ETA - Hokiefan............... GO TECH!!!! Stomp those stinkin' Seminoles!!!

(my brother is VT class of '80)

 

[tallym]

Exactly...Why o why Am I wasting my evening arguing with some nut job on the internet. Phew i need to go and kiss my baby and calm down.

 

[hokiefan33]

Thank you all. I have said my peace. Jenny, hugs to you as I know the hell you went through. Thank you all.

I think what Hokie has to remember is that if he has ever in his life uttered a curse word, in God's eyes hes done something just as bad as cold blooded murder. No one is perfect and if he and his wife decided to let her die because of a pregnancy then he looks NO BETTER in God's eyes then the ones of us who made choices for our families.

Arielle, I think you believe I was attacking you for some reason, when clearly I was not. I never claimed I was without sin. I don't think that the decision we would make, if presented with this situation, would make us any better than someone who chose a different path. Not sure where that thinking comes from. I simply stated my opinion, and the reason for it. Your opinion is your own, and you're entitled to it.

 

[cardaway]

<Inserting myself into the debate> No, I don't agree with that. I don't believe in a God that micomanages our lives. Why should I work? I could just pray for $1MM and God will provide. What you're talking about is similar in nature. Risk your wife's life for the less than 1% chance the baby will survive? That's just not rational to me.

We agree again. What is that, twice.

 

[tallym]

Hey Iam a catholic...But it says a lot about this guy that he would watch his wife die in extreme pain, leave his children without a mother, so as not to disturb an embryo in her tube.

There are some truly scary people out there and I pray my darling dd NEVER marrys such a man.

 

[hokiefan33]

<Inserting myself into the debate> No, I don't agree with that. I don't believe in a God that micomanages our lives. Why should I work? I could just pray for $1MM and God will provide. What you're talking about is similar in nature. Risk your wife's life for the less than 1% chance the baby will survive? That's just not rational to me.

I never said God micromanages anything. (Geez, people must not really and truly read my posts before they respond to them). If a prayer GUARANTEED that you got what you prayed for, then your argument would make sense. However, if you go back and read what I wrote, I said that God might, or might not, keep them both safe and intervene. Doesn't mean He would, but it does mean that He COULD, if it was in His will to do so. When Christians pray, we are supposed to pray for God's will, not for things we just want that might be outside His will. So what I'm talking about is NOT similar in nature to what you describe. It's all about where your faith and beliefs lie, at least for me it is. Often times, Christianity, and faith, for that matter, don't seem rational, b/c it relies upon a God that we can't see or understand, rather than ourselves.

 

[WIcruizer]

We agree again. What is that, twice.

Don't read too much into that....my DD16 even agreed with me today on something.

 

[WIcruizer]

It's all about where your faith and beliefs lie, at least for me it is. Often times, Christianity, and faith, for that matter, don't seem rational, b/c it relies upon a God that we can't see or understand, rather than ourselves.

Yes, and that being the case just maybe you could have faith that God has other plans for your family. And in that case, he's giving you every signal possible that you need to make a wise decision (God also gave us the gift of critical thinking skills) concerning the lessor of two evils.

 

[hokiefan33]

Yes, and that being the case just maybe you could have faith that God has other plans for your family. And in that case, he's giving you every signal possible that you need to make a wise decision (God also gave us the gift of critical thinking skills) concerning the lessor of two evils.

Could be. I'm just saying this is my opinion, not that everyone needs to follow it to the letter.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I never said God micromanages anything. (Geez, people must not really and truly read my posts before they respond to them). If a prayer GUARANTEED that you got what you prayed for, then your argument would make sense. However, if you go back and read what I wrote, I said that God might, or might not, keep them both safe and intervene. Doesn't mean He would, but it does mean that He COULD, if it was in His will to do so. When Christians pray, we are supposed to pray for God's will, not for things we just want that might be outside His will. So what I'm talking about is NOT similar in nature to what you describe. It's all about where your faith and beliefs lie, at least for me it is. Often times, Christianity, and faith, for that matter, don't seem rational, b/c it relies upon a God that we can't see or understand, rather than ourselves.

But Hokie--if prayer is ALL it takes...then we shouldn't require medical care at all. B/c God will take care of it how HE wants to take care of it.

I'm reminded of that story--"God please send someone to rescue me". A boat goes by and offers to rescue. "No--I'm waiting for God to take care of it". Later on a rescue helicopter goes by. "No thanks--God will take care of me. He's got it covered". Even later on a plane goes by. And again, rescue is refused. Later on in Heaven, "God, why didn't you rescue me?" "I sent a boat, a helicopter, and an airplane ".

I am not pro-choice. But with an ectopic pregnancy--the mom will DIE. The baby implanted in the fallopian tube. Unless they come up with a medical procedure to transplant the baby in the uterus--what major miracle would you be waiting for to take place? Do you want her to die b/c you guys chose to ignore the rescue crews b/c you were waiting on God to fix it?

With that logic--it would seem that your personal belief system would then refuse most medical care. Is that accurate?